HealingWell
Search Close Search
☰

Gat Goren Method

Support Forums
>
Prostate Cancer
✚ New Topic locked
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 910
❬ ❬ Previous Thread |Next Thread ❭ ❭
Posted 2/4/2013 1:49 AM (GMT 0)
Guys,

Let me invite whomever of you feels ownership on this to start a new thread, and put a link to the new one at the end of this one. Then I will lock this one. Put a link in the first post of the new one to point back at the old thread.

Reason is that there is an unpredictable point, around the 10 page mark, where threads can become corrupted, and in worst cases, become unreadable.

Just to keep you from losing everything.

Posted 2/4/2013 2:32 AM (GMT 0)
Maybe Peter will start a new Condition category.
Posted 2/4/2013 4:28 AM (GMT 0)
Does my case contradict the GG theory?

BPH.
Several decades of varicocele and low Testosterone diagnosis. That is very consistent. The low T can be the result that I was not able to compensate the t leakage with more production. But: I have had T supplementation of about 100 mg/ week for decades too. According to the literature the dose already (I bumped up the dose s couple days ago.) should have resulted in no LH, and very marginal own T production, which means that leakage directly to the the prostate must have been marginal. So it seems that my intraprostatic t level must have been normal. Does that mean that my PSA and BPH are caused by something else and my chance of benefiting from GG procedure is slim to none (other than possibly I can stop T supplementation?
Posted 2/4/2013 5:04 PM (GMT 0)
mikebph testosterone suplementation at reasonnable doses should not in itself cause a total collapse of testes own production. To be sure would it not be a good idea to use an GNRH antagonist drug (prescribed by doctors in case of prostate cancer) in order to collapse the testes production to almost zero and in the same time in order to live a normal life to compensate the dissapearance of teste testosterone by using suplementation with a gel for example ?
I would also point out that in order to take in account the GG discoveries the following actions should be taken:improve blood circulation in prostate area using cold hot alternate patches, avoiding sitting or standing idle, massaging, sauna etc
sleep with groin area at higher level than the heart in order for the nightly produced testosterone to flow in the right direction using gravity
Posted 2/5/2013 3:07 AM (GMT 0)
Dusame: Supplementation with about 100mg/week exogenous testosterone according to many source reduces both LH and the own testosterone production to close to 0. see e.g. http://www.cenegenicsfoundation.org/library/library_files/Effects_of_Chronic_Testosterone_Administration_in_Normal_Men.pdf
The 100mg/ week is the dose docs prescribe as legitimate supplemantation of low T.
Posted 2/5/2013 6:34 PM (GMT 0)
MIKEBPH thank you very much for this very interesting research. however maybe you have another one because into it I read that for a dose of 100mg of T ethanate injected weekly LH and FSH are reduced to 32 and 34 per cent of the controls. I read also that at 300 mg injected per week (resulting in an above normal testosterone dosage in blood) the results are the same as for 100 mg per week. taking into consideration the GG findings in the veinous backflow the prostate cells still experience 30 times the normal level of testosterone. the study show on the other end that the spermatozoide count go to zero. In case of above normal testosterone dosage in blood (which is probably not your case at 100 mg weekly) the testes start shrinking and it has also be found that the more the testosterone level rise in your blood the more aromatase you get and consequently the testes produce more estrogen which also concentrate in the veinous backflow to the prostate.
Posted 2/5/2013 10:02 PM (GMT 0)
Dusame: I misread it. Thank you for your correction.
Posted 2/7/2013 4:31 AM (GMT 0)
I just want to point out that testerone back-flow to prostate is just a theory. At least that's my reading of GG publications. They didn't measured actual back-flow, nor testerone concentration near prostate. It is not surprising as I have hard time to imagine how it could be done. They measure arterial flow with special catheter, but get it into small vein is difficult. Also it wasn't clear from my phone conversation with GG clinic if they actually check the valves' condition in spermatic vein during the procedure. It would be a pity to collapse perfectly good vein. The clinic rep asserted that the compromised valves is the only reason for BPH. That sounded like no test is necessary.

dusame said...
MIKEBPH thank you very much for this very interesting research. however maybe you have another one because into it I read that for a dose of 100mg of T ethanate injected weekly LH and FSH are reduced to 32 and 34 per cent of the controls. I read also that at 300 mg injected per week (resulting in an above normal testosterone dosage in blood) the results are the same as for 100 mg per week. taking into consideration the GG findings in the veinous backflow the prostate cells still experience 30 times the normal level of testosterone. the study show on the other end that the spermatozoide count go to zero. In case of above normal testosterone dosage in blood (which is probably not your case at 100 mg weekly) the testes start shrinking and it has also be found that the more the testosterone level rise in your blood the more aromatase you get and consequently the testes produce more estrogen which also concentrate in the veinous backflow to the prostate.

Posted 2/7/2013 5:01 AM (GMT 0)
cancer cells as any other living thing needs oxygen and food to survive and grow. The publication you quoted is not very clear on how those cells manage. Also it is quite old. If the findings were correct and general it would be a major revolution in biology.

martin victor said...
Sleepless: From Science Daily: Cancer can survive without oxygen.

"Some cancer cells similarly adapt; as a tumor grows too big for its blood and oxygen supply, some cells transform so they can survive without oxygen, emerging stronger and treatment resistant, says Dr. Zheng Dong, cell biologist.

He doubts that these two very different cell types travel the identical road to survival. "But the final result is the same," he says. "They simply become stronger, tougher and more resistant to injury, and for those in tumors, more resistant to cancer therapies."

The researcher, whose latest findings are featured in recent issues of the Journal of Biological Chemistry and American Journal of Pathology, is tracing the steps each takes, ultimately to see whether cells that would be lost to stroke and heart attack can be made equally durable – and, possibly, whether cancer cells can be made vulnerable."

Posted 2/7/2013 1:16 PM (GMT 0)
Sleepless:New Clue to How Cancer Cells Beat Oxygen Starvation: March 1, 2012

http://scienceblog.cancerresearchuk.org/2012/03/01/new-clue-to-how-cancer-cells-beat-oxygen-starvation/


As tumours rapidly grow and expand, the network of blood vessels bringing oxygen to their cells can’t keep up, leaving some cells starved of oxygen, or ‘hypoxic’. This would kill normal cells, but cancer cells have evolved to beat these conditions by switching on a protein called hypoxia-inducible factor (HIF), which in turn switches on other molecules inside the cell.

This cascade, called the HIF response, encourages new blood vessels to grow around and into the tumour. It also helps the tumour to adapt to hypoxic conditions by using alternative methods to produce energy.

A cell generates energy to grow and survive inside tiny ‘power stations’ called mitochondria, by using oxygen to fuel chemical reactions. And it’s been known for some time that mitochondria have an important role in flicking the ‘HIF’ switch.

But researchers were in the dark as to exactly how mitochondria are involved. So a team at University College London, led by Dr Margaret Ashcroft, set out to investigate.

Flicking the switch
The research, published in this month’s Journal of Clinical Investigation, delved into mitochondria’s inner workings and found that oxygen levels are monitored by a protein called CHCHD4. When oxygen levels fall below a critical level, this protein activates the HIF response.

In lab experiments, the researchers also varied the levels of CHCHD4 in cells starved of oxygen. When CHCHD4 was blocked entirely, it stopped the action of HIF in cells, stopping cancer cells from growing and – importantly – preventing the growth of new blood vessels.

But when too much CHCHD4 was switched on in oxygen-starved cancer cells, large amounts of HIF were activated. This kick started a sequence of events that allowed cells to survive in low oxygen.

And it seems CHCHD4 has this HIF-activating role in a number of different types of cancer. The team looked at samples from 236 breast cancer patients, and found that levels of CHCHD4 were greatest in samples that were most aggressive, and came from patients with poorer survival. They also found raised levels of CHCHD4 in samples from patients with pancreatic cancers and gliomas (a form of brain tumour).

Again, in these cancers, they found that increased levels of CHCHD4 were associated with more aggressive tumours and poorer survival.
Posted 2/7/2013 1:24 PM (GMT 0)
Sleepless:

>>> Also it wasn't clear from my phone conversation with GG clinic if they actually check the valves' condition in spermatic vein during the procedure. It would be a pity to collapse perfectly good vein.<<<

Yes...I had the procedure performed. They do check the valves condition in the spermatic vein. On a fluoroscope, I witnessed my blood with dye for contrast, that was not supported by valves. The blood dropped the length of the spermatic vein without any support, indicating a mechanical malfunction.
Posted 2/9/2013 7:10 PM (GMT 0)
Thank you Martin

martin victor said...
Sleepless:

>>> Also it wasn't clear from my phone conversation with GG clinic if they actually check the valves' condition in spermatic vein during the procedure. It would be a pity to collapse perfectly good vein.<<<

Yes...I had the procedure performed. They do check the valves condition in the spermatic vein. On a fluoroscope, I witnessed my blood with dye for contrast, that was not supported by valves. The blood dropped the length of the spermatic vein without any support, indicating a mechanical malfunction.

Posted 2/9/2013 7:20 PM (GMT 0)
I see, now it makes sense. But going back to your question if artery embolization can promote cancer, the answer is still no. The article describes the way for cancer to cope with low oxygen, in particular by growing and expanding the network of blood vessels, so naturally cancer wants more arterial blood.

martin victor said...
Sleepless:New Clue to How Cancer Cells Beat Oxygen Starvation: March 1, 2012

http://scienceblog.cancerresearchuk.org/2012/03/01/new-clue-to-how-cancer-cells-beat-oxygen-starvation/


As tumours rapidly grow and expand, the network of blood vessels bringing oxygen to their cells can’t keep up, leaving some cells starved of oxygen, or ‘hypoxic’. This would kill normal cells, but cancer cells have evolved to beat these conditions by switching on a protein called hypoxia-inducible factor (HIF), which in turn switches on other molecules inside the cell.

This cascade, called the HIF response, encourages new blood vessels to grow around and into the tumour. It also helps the tumour to adapt to hypoxic conditions by using alternative methods to produce energy.

A cell generates energy to grow and survive inside tiny ‘power stations’ called mitochondria, by using oxygen to fuel chemical reactions. And it’s been known for some time that mitochondria have an important role in flicking the ‘HIF’ switch.

But researchers were in the dark as to exactly how mitochondria are involved. So a team at University College London, led by Dr Margaret Ashcroft, set out to investigate.

Flicking the switch
The research, published in this month’s Journal of Clinical Investigation, delved into mitochondria’s inner workings and found that oxygen levels are monitored by a protein called CHCHD4. When oxygen levels fall below a critical level, this protein activates the HIF response.

In lab experiments, the researchers also varied the levels of CHCHD4 in cells starved of oxygen. When CHCHD4 was blocked entirely, it stopped the action of HIF in cells, stopping cancer cells from growing and – importantly – preventing the growth of new blood vessels.

But when too much CHCHD4 was switched on in oxygen-starved cancer cells, large amounts of HIF were activated. This kick started a sequence of events that allowed cells to survive in low oxygen.

And it seems CHCHD4 has this HIF-activating role in a number of different types of cancer. The team looked at samples from 236 breast cancer patients, and found that levels of CHCHD4 were greatest in samples that were most aggressive, and came from patients with poorer survival. They also found raised levels of CHCHD4 in samples from patients with pancreatic cancers and gliomas (a form of brain tumour).

Again, in these cancers, they found that increased levels of CHCHD4 were associated with more aggressive tumours and poorer survival.

Posted 2/10/2013 10:13 PM (GMT 0)
so far, neither artery embolization or varicocele surgery (practised everywhere for fertility purpose) should in my opinion achieve the goals of the GG methodic suppression of each and every veinous connexions between the testes and the prostate.
artery embolization reduce the size of the prostate trough a partial necrose in the way of the arteries linked tissues. The prostate will however continue to survive in diseased state trough by-passes the body will produce but last but not least trough the veinous backflow from the internal seminal veins which following GG is the cause of cancer and BPH.
varicocele surgery (laparoscopic, open surgery or unfortunately rare by laser fiber trough a catheter) only deal with the ligation of the internal seminal valve without regard for the lots of small by-passing smaller veins.this solve only half of the backflow problem.

following a new model which take shape, cancer cell on the other end dont bother at the beginning if there is oxygen or not. They are then stem cells or stem cell-like cells (believed to be generated by senescent-like cells which mutate heavily back to their youth origin state) and dont need mitochondria and therefore oxygen for their energy. Later on when the tumor get a certain size (perhaps 64 cells like the foetus) cancer cells differentiates themselves like if the tumor was a foetus and indeed start amongst other growing blood vessels and other differenciated tissues. The question is to understand why stem cells somewhere in the prostate try to generate foetus tissues outside of a placenta instead of keeping their assymetrical (beneficial to the body repair) division scheme (one stem cell divide into a stem cell plus a brand new prostate cell) and why the immune system ( here not impaired by a placenta) dont succeed to destroy the tumor. the answer lay probably in the diseased condition of the prostate (swollen, infected, oversized, poorly iirigated and drained) which loose its connexion with the body information-wize and receive trough a huge testosterone dosage abnormal division instructions
Posted 2/10/2013 10:49 PM (GMT 0)
Dusame,

Overall do you think artery embolization overall would increase or decrease the chance of developing cancer?
Posted 2/11/2013 6:40 PM (GMT 0)
Hallo Forumsmittglieder und BPH betroffene

Hello forum members and Mitt BPH affected
3 weeks have passed since I visited Dr Dr Gat and Goren
I'm excited for what these are nice people
Dr Goren has performed the surgery under the supervision of Dr Gat along with me. Dr Goren speaks German very well, which was a great thing for me. He told me during the procedure and explained everything exactly on the screen I was able to follow everything. Gigantic!!!!!
have been 6 months Pampers worn at night, mostly it was full urine
6 days ago I'm dry what l a new Lebensgefüh!!!
I can also make a day good water alledings the beam still weak but still without pain
My sincere thanks to Dr Dr Gat and Goren
You have given me a new sense of life, just a dream
you'll continue to maintain the current
do not wait too long if you have problems, every penny is worth the trip
and Tel Aviv a beautiful city
cast from old Germany
Posted 2/11/2013 6:49 PM (GMT 0)
mikebph frankly speaking I dont know.At least the doctors practicing it state that it is not an intervention that will impede a cancer to appear. The artery embolization at this stage looks to me as a solution able to help old peoples with voiding problems at the expense of a very simple surgery with fews side effects but it doesnt address the causes of the problem in order to cure younger peoples from their prostate ailment. But who knows only time and experience will tell.

GG have shown that most prostate ailments are a result of bad blood circulation. On one end of the prostate the arterial blood flows less and less well and on the other end the blood drainage trough the veinous system deteriorate so much that there is a gravity caused backflow aggravated here by the fact that this backflowing blood is madly loaded with an hormone which instruct cells to divide . Aging which causes slowly but surely deposits in the arteries and the collapse of the complex valves systems in the veins is the main culprit.

For the ones able to pass trough the GG Tel Aviv hospital I think a good solution has been found.

For the others who have to wait the GG findings is an upmost precious information. I already mentionned a lot of simple measures that can be taken in order to impede somewhat the GG discovered morbid processus.
Posted 2/12/2013 5:27 AM (GMT 0)
In the popular paper from GG website:
http://news.sky.com/story/877151/prostate-treatment-gives-patients-new-hope

"Paradoxically, varicoceles also reduce the production of testosterone, so tests of men with them reveal low levels of testosterone in general circulation."

Is this correct or typo: I assume that since testosteron is diverted from circulation paradoxically the serum testosterone will be lower. But they say that the production itself is lowered. Is this correct?

Thanks.
Posted 2/12/2013 5:16 PM (GMT 0)
mikebph any blood circulation problem has an influence on the affected gland hormone production. Here with varicocele we have the testes which are not draining trough the veinous system as needed and as a result the spermatogenesis as well as the testosterone production decrease. But as GG indicate it that doesnt help the prostate which is trough its own (linked) blood circulation morbid abnormality (to feed itself trough a veinous inflow !) in the first line to suffer heavily from an overdose of testosterone.
Posted 2/12/2013 11:03 PM (GMT 0)
Chaps, I speak as I find. I'm blown away with the way this has gone. THANKS ALL for all the recently expanded informed input which is illuminating and perhaps, slightly worrying to someone as ill informed as me.

However, it appears that there may be light at the end of the tunnel. ........ Lets all hope and pray that our conditions are sorted through the GG procedure and that there are no implications.

If anyone needs a gg patient to undergo independent and further ongoing testing, I'm happy to put my self forward if it helps drive progress on reducing the effects of BPH.

Further, Chaps, I now look on you as "brothers".... my expertise is in flood damage....If you ever get flooded and need help in recovering after flooding, I'm your man! I hope I can help you one day as much as you have enlightened me. THANK YOU!

I think my input is to this forum is now worthless so. I will look in occasionally and keep you all up to date with progress.

I am happy to be emailed personally.
Posted 2/13/2013 12:25 PM (GMT 0)
Hi Andy You've helped me a lot thanks
I inform about my future path
I am doing much better now but I'm pointing continues
greet you Hansi tongue
Posted 2/15/2013 5:41 AM (GMT 0)
I just found out that the same procedure (Varicocele Embolization) is performed widely to treat Varicocele. Here is the link http://www.varicoceles.com/treatment.htm. GG do it for the same purpose, but they treat BPH with it as well.
The procedure is performed by many radiologists (listed on the site). I am wondering if somebody contacted a radiologist who was doing the procedure and asked his opinion. BPH would be a goldmine for them.
Posted 2/15/2013 3:07 PM (GMT 0)
Sleepless, interesting find. are you sure that this is the same as GG? GG themselves started thier procedure for varicocele for fertility purposes and then they extended it to BPH after observing that the procedure increased serum testosteron and helped wiht BPH. My impression that the difference is that they claim "During the treatment, the entire damaged network of veins in the varicocele is located and treated from both sides" while in your quoted varicocle treatment it is not the entire network. This is very important question, so if we cannot figure out we should ask GG.
2nd. question is what is the difference between this and the more widely available Prostatic artery embolization for BPH.
Posted 2/16/2013 6:33 PM (GMT 0)
mike
The important thing is that back-flow from spermatic vein does exists and the procedure does have effect. I am just wondering why all radiologists around the world who treat varicocele don't jump on BPH. In US any procedure should be approved by large bureaucracy, but elsewhere the bar is lower. I wish somebody ask the radiologists how valuable the procedure could be for BPH.

Your second question: Prostatic artery embolization blocks the artery that brings blood with oxygen to prostate as a part of normal circulation. Varicocele Embolization blocks spermatic vein that is supposed to cary blood from prostate back to heart but fails to do so because of compromised valves.
Posted 2/17/2013 8:26 AM (GMT 0)
hi mike
you're right, you have understood it, all be exclusively veins VEIN must be treated there are Namely all that have to do with BPH
a total of six of them I have had the procedure Gat Goren and everything on the screen with Dr Goren has given me the
Dr Goren can see me the whole procedure exactly in German I've explained it certainly seen and understood!!!!
stake here not just about testosterone but the pressure on the testicles wil the venous valves are defective when the pressure is off, the prostate schrupft is soooo easy! And you're 5 times procreation Efficient is the temperature in the testicles again 32 C Celsius and there is no longer the 36 C Celsius spermine are cooler again this is normal
The pressure voher after 6 mm 35 mm QS QS (6 mm qs) normal
danngi and no backflow of testosterone into the prostate through the back door ...

just read exactly the Metode of Gat Goren then you do not have a single question more
if you understand it is a matter of hydraulics
or call on Dr Gat he explains easily the details
Gat Goren clinic Ramatgan Tel Aviv, Israel 00972 52 426 8678
walk me very well by now every cent is well spent for my health
there are so many diseases but only one health
In this sense I wish everyone a schonenTag
warm greetings Hansi tongue turn
✚ New Topic locked
12345678910