Gat Goren Method, Part 3

Dave: I took 12.5 mg of iodine at 6:30 PM. I slept like a new born babe, waking up refreshed with 2 great dreams...and no zombie effect. I spoke to Dr. Flechas office and they confirmed that many people on starting the program sleep well at night and are invigorated during the day. I think the mistake I made previously was taking 18.5 mg between breakfast and noon...so I was drowsy the whole day.

So where are we at?... Gat Goren, supplementation to keep the DHT low (between 30-50 ng/dl), prostate massage, probiotic supplementation, iodine replacement therapy. If I mentioned this stuff to my urologist, ... he would throw me out the office.

Martin said...
So where are we at?... Gat Goren, supplementation to keep the DHT low (between 30-50 ng/dl), prostate massage, probiotic supplementation, iodine replacement therapy. If I mentioned this stuff to my urologist, ... he would throw me out the office.

My guiding star is the desire to find and fix (if possible) the ROOT CAUSE of the problem, no matter what label has been attached to the symptoms.

I think you can have a bunch of guys diagnosed with "BPH" and yet they have different causes for their symptoms. One (a very typical case, Dr. Gat would say) might have failed ISV valves; another an infection that manifests like typical "BPH"; a third muscle trigger points that resemble "BPH" symptoms; a fourth with vitamin or mineral deficiencies. And this doesn't exhaust the range of possibilities. And, of course, some guys will have MULTIPLE causes because one effect tends to lead to other problems.

Each guy should seek the treatment that addresses *HIS* particular underlying problem(s).

I also think that standard treatments--and many new treatments under development--are oriented very much to reducing symptoms rather than fixing root causes. I expect most readers would agree with this.

After the underlying the problem is addressed, there will probably be some clean-up needed. If you remove the root cause, you should prevent any further injury, but that doesn't guarantee that existing injury can be REVERSED simply by removing the cause. It's great that in the case of GG a lot of the damage CAN be reversed. But even Dr. Gat says that only 60 % of the additional prostate volume is reduced by his GG procedure. I have a bladder that I suspect has thickened after 30 years of ISV-valve failure. It would be too much to hope that merely addressing that root cause will not restore my bladder to its condition of 35 years ago. It may require some other intervention: iodine, probiotics, whatever.

So that's the roadmap that I see for myself and that I refer to when I respond to folks on this board: Let each one fix the root cause underlying his own particular condition, and then clean up what doesn't resolve naturally.

I'm a lay expert on the GG procedure. Even so, I DO suggest other procedures that I have read about and found promising, in the hopes that others will research them in detail and find them helpful. I don't have time to research topics that don't affect me, but I might chime in with a knee-jerk response now and then. Usual disclaimer: I'm not any kind of health-care professional, just an involved patient.

Howard:

Supplements are important (though no one agrees exactly which supplements are required).

I think it's best to find a knowledgeable MD or ND who can provide advise and monitoring; there are risks to using yourself as a guinea pig in testing your own theories. Of course, as we all know, it's also risky to accept at face value anything you hear from someone in a white coat.

-dave

Post Edited (Chicago Dave) : 9/3/2013 1:26:09 PM (GMT-6)

4 WEEK UPDATE AFTER GG:

On Scale of bad->so so->decent->good->great

Before GG:
urination: so so, 70% of time thin stream at end of urination, urgency happens if I sit for stand for too long
pelvic discomfort: so so, after about 1 hour of sitting, then feels "congested" in the pelvic area
scrotal discomfort: so so, after standing or sitting too long, my grade 3 varicocele hurts a little

Week 1:
urination: decent, only 20% of time thin stream at end of urination, urgency less than before
pelvic discomfort: decent, not as much "congested" feeling in the pelvic area after prolonged sitting
scrotal discomfort: decent, didn't feel much pain from my grade 3 varicocele, which is still there

Week 2:
urination: decent, only 20% of time thin stream, urgency same as week 1
pelvic discomfort: decent, not as much "congested" feeling, same as week 1
scrotal discomfort: decent, same as week 1, the "bag of worms" seems a little smaller

Week 3:
urination: great, 10% of time thin stream, can hold urine for very long time without urgency
pelvic discomfort: good, better than week 2, not much "congested" feeling
scrotal discomfort: decent, slightly better than week 2, the "bag of worms" seems a little smaller

Week 4:
urination: decent, 10% of time thin stream, but more urgency than week 3, less volume than week 3
pelvic discomfort: so so, after prolonged sitting it gets bad again, sort of like before the procedure
scrotal discomfort: bad, not sure what's going on, but "bag of worms" are firm again, and more discomfort than before the procedure, even while lying down sometimes feels like scrotum area have random pulsing pains and aches, affecting muscles and nerves in the inner thigh too.

So I felt like I was well on my way to the promised land, then now am back down again. I didn't sleep very well during week 3-4 and had a few hard coughs (which is bad for sclerotherapy), and I sat a lot during week 3 to do programming work. I hope I didn't do anything to undo the improvements. I should have just taken it easy the first months since that's when the scrotum and pelvic structures are undergoing significant structural changes.

I will keep you all updated.
Also I will get a transrectal ultrasound for prostate size at months 3, as well as a color doppler scrotal ultrasound to test if any backflow reflux still exists in the scrotal veins at months 3.

martin victor said...
RPH Guy: Thank you for keeping us informed. Hopefully you will see improvements in the next 3 months. Have you tried a smaller dosage of Rapaflo which comes in a .4mg size same as Flomax. "For Flomax, the sexual side effect of abnormal ejaculation occurred in up to 19.1 percent of men who took the higher dose of Flomax (0.8mg daily). For men who took the lower dose (Flomax 0.4 mg daily), 8.4 percent of men experienced abnormal ejaculation. Up to 1.6 percent of men stopped taking Flomax due to this side effect. This problem can include decreased amounts of ejaculate, inability to ejaculate or retrograde ejaculation." I question whether a larger dose of Flomax gives increased benefits.

Excess vitamin B-6 can cause nerve tingling.

more than tingling. Have (lately) some amount of pain in lower back.

With higher dose of flomax, I had full retro maybe 10% and reduced ejaculation about half the time.
1st time after rapaflo, was more or less normal. after that, During the 2 weeks I've taken it, went 8 for 8 with full retro.
Switched back to 1 flomax and on day 2, was like a 17 yr old kid or a firehose. pick your metaphor.

howard: I am taking all the supplements you indicated except cofactors as suggested by Dr. Abraham, Dr.Flechas and Dr. Brownstein. Have had no side effects when taken after dinner with the iodine at 18.5 mg.

skateman: The detox effects lasted only two days on the iodine therapy at 12.5 mg. If there are side effects, I sleep through them at night and do not feel the fatigue and drowsiness. I had one night of really good urine flow. Last night it was again intermittant. Have only been on iodine for about a week so it is very early.

Dave: I picked up this tidbit from a Dr. Wright, a Harvard MD who is well regarded in nutrition circles as an authority.

http://tahomaclinicblog.com/iodide/

"My colleague Richard Kunin, M.D. of San Francisco, is a “world class” expert on the use of SSKI and other forms of iodine. He has found that hemorrhoids will sometimes disappear literally overnight, when SSKI (20 drops) mixed with flaxseed oil (1 ounce) is rubbed in them at bedtime. He’s also found that SSKI alone will do the same job, although it “really stings” when applied to a hemorrhoid by itself."

Dave: Just to reflect: Imagine during a digital exam of the prostate, that the urologist applied this iodine concoction on the prostate. Would the iodine not only kill the bacteria but pull out the flourides, chlorides and bromides. Ouch???? Would it shrink like the hemorrhoid???

Thunder,

Thanks for the update. Looking forward to seeing how this works out for you. I think Chicago Dave also had ups and downs after his procedure. Good luck.

thunder2004 said...
4 WEEK UPDATE AFTER GG:

On Scale of bad->so so->decent->good->great

Before GG:
urination: so so, 70% of time thin stream at end of urination, urgency happens if I sit for stand for too long
pelvic discomfort: so so, after about 1 hour of sitting, then feels "congested" in the pelvic area
scrotal discomfort: so so, after standing or sitting too long, my grade 3 varicocele hurts a little

Week 1:
urination: decent, only 20% of time thin stream at end of urination, urgency less than before
pelvic discomfort: decent, not as much "congested" feeling in the pelvic area after prolonged sitting
scrotal discomfort: decent, didn't feel much pain from my grade 3 varicocele, which is still there

Week 2:
urination: decent, only 20% of time thin stream, urgency same as week 1
pelvic discomfort: decent, not as much "congested" feeling, same as week 1
scrotal discomfort: decent, same as week 1, the "bag of worms" seems a little smaller

Week 3:
urination: great, 10% of time thin stream, can hold urine for very long time without urgency
pelvic discomfort: good, better than week 2, not much "congested" feeling
scrotal discomfort: decent, slightly better than week 2, the "bag of worms" seems a little smaller

Week 4:
urination: decent, 10% of time thin stream, but more urgency than week 3, less volume than week 3
pelvic discomfort: so so, after prolonged sitting it gets bad again, sort of like before the procedure
scrotal discomfort: bad, not sure what's going on, but "bag of worms" are firm again, and more discomfort than before the procedure, even while lying down sometimes feels like scrotum area have random pulsing pains and aches, affecting muscles and nerves in the inner thigh too.

So I felt like I was well on my way to the promised land, then now am back down again. I didn't sleep very well during week 3-4 and had a few hard coughs (which is bad for sclerotherapy), and I sat a lot during week 3 to do programming work. I hope I didn't do anything to undo the improvements. I should have just taken it easy the first months since that's when the scrotum and pelvic structures are undergoing significant structural changes.

I will keep you all updated.
Also I will get a transrectal ultrasound for prostate size at months 3, as well as a color doppler scrotal ultrasound to test if any backflow reflux still exists in the scrotal veins at months 3.

Thunder:

Thanks for the detailed update! We like to read the unvarnished truth. It's true, as Bob says, that my own recovery was a series of ups and downs. Yours could be similar, but the re-appearance of the varicocele gives me a little pause. I expect subjective symptoms to wax and wane, but I'm not sure if your varicocele falls in that category. It's almost impossible that you could reopen those sealed ISVs by coughing or other activities. It's remotely possible that another collateral has formed so quickly, but I sort of doubt that too. I give it an 70% chance that it's just normal waxing-and-waning. I never had Type 3 varicocele, so I don't know how it heals.
Only time will tell! Keep us informed. (Obviously, if your symptoms continue this way for another two weeks, you should contact Dr. Gat.)

{...}

Martin:

Regarding iodine and hemorrhoids: Now you can appreciate why folks like Grizz think that iodine is virtually a panacea.

As for your suggestion of applying iodine directly to the prostate, I think it might be worth trying as long as you don't damage tissues with concentrated iodine. As for the mode of action, your guess is as good as mine. It's interesting that we can come up with many hypotheses to explain its supposed mode of action there.

Grizz and T2T applied diluted iodine directly to the testicles in addition to taking it orally. I can speculate that the iodine would find its way from there to the prostate taking the backflow channel caused by failed ISV valves. I suppose this would also work in GG guys too, though it's difficult to point to a helpful blood flow. It might even work if applied directly as a dilute solution to the prostate as you propose.

{Edited 9/5: Corrected a lot of typos, which I blame on iodine detox.}

Post Edited (Chicago Dave) : 10/21/2013 5:37:18 PM (GMT-6)

I figure if neither the rapaflo nor the flomax were helping decrease my residual urine volume, I may as well use the one that doesn't cause the retro.
One flomax per day never caused, 2 per day does though.
Breaking the seal on the bottle of rapaflo made me dry up like a desert.

Bob_NJ said...
A big plus /lol

rphguy said...
lol. \
I guess I was unclear. I wasn't speaking of urine flow. I was talking about the "retrograde reversal".

Bob_NJ said...
Rphguy,

If your flow is that good with flomax, are you still retaining 300ml+ when you cath?

rphguy said...
[quote=".....
Switched back to 1 flomax and on day 2, was like a 17 yr old kid or a firehose. pick your metaphor.

Thunder,

As long as there are *changes*, I think that's a promising sign. Sometimes such changes create a temporary aggravation of symptoms. But if things stagnate for a week or two, then maybe contact Dr. Gat. Not ever having had a Type 3 varicocele, I can't give you informed advice.

Keep us informed.

-dave

martin victor said...
From Curezone: Iodine can make men happy:

***


I think all men with BPH problems should take an iodine Loading test: Call FFP Labs Dr. Jorg Flechas MD 1 877 900 5556 for test kit for $80. This test is based upon the fact that the greater the iodine deficiency there is, the more iodine is retained in the body when taking a morning dose of 50 mg and the less iodine is excreted in the urine. The iodine binds to iodine receptors throughout the body including the prostate. If the body's receptors for iodine are sufficient in iodine, a large percentage of ingested iodine will be excreted from the body. On the other hand, if there is an iodine deficiency present, ingested iodine will be retained at a much larger percentage.

Right now two commenters, Dave and you, Victor, are detoxing and supplementing with relatively large amounts of iodine (are you taking potassium iodide?). If I remember correctly, you are both also GG procedure veterans. I hope the iodine regimen works, and I look forward to reading about your experiences.

Thanks, Martin. I'm looking forward to your success.

I understand your argument. Now to add some kelp to my diet.


An interesting article on iodine supplementation is here:

http://www.westonaprice.org/metabolic-disorders/the-great-iodine-debate

Post Edited (Skateman) : 9/6/2013 9:35:23 AM (GMT-6)

Some additional questions/thoughts on iodine suplementation....

1. If a person has their thyroid tested (T3, T4, TSH) and their results are good, wouldn't that automatically rule out iodine deficiency? I had mine tested last year and I was neither hypo or hyper thyroid on any of the tests.

2. Some studies show if you are not iodine deficient and you take supplementation, it can cause a rebound effect where the thyroid stops producing it's own hormone and it can induce a hypo thyroid reaction. One reviewer of kelp pills on Amazon said he initially felt fantastic, but within a few months he became hypo thyroid which took several months to overcome.

3. It seems the positive reactions to iodine are primarily an increase in thyroid hormone.
Forty years ago I was diagnosed as hypothyroid and was on thyroid medication (Armour Thyroid - 3 grains/day) for 10 years. When I took this medication I had loads of nervous energy and thoughts and ideas would just flood my brain. Strangely enough after 10 years, my thyroid levels returned to normal and I stopped taking the medication. I say strangely, because I was told that taking the medication that long should have would put my thyroid to sleep permanently, but it didn't. I've been tested for thirty years, and my levels have always been good.