Gat Goren Method, Part 3

Martin,

Thanks for the info.

martin victor said...
Bob: I took the iodine Loading Test about 10 years ago. I scored a result of around 45...Very Low. I took Prolamine Iodine from Standard Process Labs. I recently learned that Prolamine Iodine only contains potassium iodide and doesn't work well on the prostate receptors as you need the iodine form as in IODORAL. The iodine patch test isn't very scientific and many factors go into why it disappears. Read the following article by Dr. Abraham for more information:

http://www.optimox.com/pics/Iodine/updates/UNIOD-02/UNIOD_02.htm

Even if the T3, T4 TSH results are good, it doesn't rule out deficiency in organs like the prostate and breast tissue whose receptors need the iodine form and not the iodide form which the thyroid needs. Iodide I understand goes first to the thyroid at the expense of other organs. Bob, you have other good questions but I am about to catch a plane. Briefly, the reviewer you mention, should have monitored his intake until the reloading test showed adequate levels of iodine within his body. On Saturday, I am going to the U.S. Tennis open semi finals...Bye...will be back next week.

Chicago Dave said...
Well, I'm tickled that my suggestion of high-dose iodine therapy inspired such interest! But don't you guys think it might be best to take the discussion on to another thread, or over to the Curezone Iodine Supplementation forum? I think it might be turning off readers interested in Gat-Goren.
I anticipate that my own use of iodine will take many months, sigh, to work.

The posts there do not seem credible to me. I suspect that we will get candid reports from Martin and you.

Chicago Dave said...

I think the success of a treatment for a particular individual depends on the the root causes of that individual's complaints. Different individuals can and will have different experiences with any one treatment.

Exactly.

Ira

Rphguy,

Are you still cathing daily? Do you have any problem getting the cath in?

At the advice of my uro I am cathing every two weeks to keep the channel clear of tissue growth (scar tissue?) I find it difficult to get past the bladder mouth. Takes several minutes of twirling the cath and waiting and it finally pops through, shooting out a wad of rolled up tissue and blood. I pee some blood and tissue for about a day afterward. I'm using a 16Fr hydrophilic cath. The 12Fr would just compress and wouldn't go through. The 16 Fr compresses but is rigid enough to finally pop through.

Bob

Rphguy,

Should be interesting to find out if your nerves are involved. I void explosively for the first two seconds. Then hit tightness, burning, and either a reduced (anything from a thin stream to drips and dribbles) or a stopped flow. Very weird thing is if I do a side bends standing at the bowl the flow almost always starts up again. I have meralgia peristatica which causes numbness and tingling on my right thigh (where the pants pocket would be). There is a nerve that passes through the pelvis and gets pinched there that causes meralgia peristatica. I wonder if side bends frees up the nerves in the pelvis and if one of those nerves controls the sphincter at the mouth of the bladder?

I take it because you cath regularly, you don't experience bleeding or tissue in the cath?

Bob

rphguy said...
Hi Bob.
I cath morning and night and sometimes at noon. I basically only void 120-150cc at a time and every time I cath it is between 350 and 480cc. It's like I urinate until I get to that level and the flow stops.
I am going soon to a Neurologist. I have for about a year been having increasing levels of numbness in feet, tingling in legs, and numbness in buttocks. We will try to see if it is also causing difficulty with a nerve going to my bladder. If so, then back surgery to the very low lumbar area is in my future. I have some compression fracture issues from 30 years ago.
If not, then, since my prostate has shrunk as much as it is going to, I have to look at other options. My Uro says that it is not my prostate any longer. He believes it is a narrow bladder neck/sphincter. That would entail a procedure to make slices to where it can expand more so the bladder doesn't have to push as hard.
I'm skeptical. And, it has opportunities for adverse effects.

I normally use a 12FR size, but am looking at going up to 14 here at home and keep a 12 with me for noon because the 14 doesn't fit in my pocket well.

I have no scar tissue to deal with because I've not actually had surgery on my prostate or urethra. My problem is, possibly, the urethra too narrow.

Post Edited (Bob_NJ) : 9/10/2013 7:30:33 PM (GMT-6)

robc,

My right side also feels less comfortable than the left! But I think that's to be expected if my understanding of varicocele is correct - the reason being that the left side is generally a lot more severe than the right, so before the procedure, more "alternative routes" develop for the left side. Since you just blocked the right side, what happens is the blood now has to find an alternative route to drain, and those new routes are not as well developed as the left yet. You'll need several weeks before the alternate routes develop.
Your symptom getting worse is actually an expected result, as I had verified with Dr. Goren, the length depends on each individual, obviously.
But I urge you to get your left side done asap, because the pressure in your system right now is left-dominant. Your new veins need to develop in the correct manner and getting used to BOTH ISV's shut down. But right now your alternate routes are developing based on only one side getting shutdown, and that may not be structurally correct for the end. So if you wait, I think after your left-side is fixed, then the veins will need to go through a structural change again since the pressure is different from your current situation. I think in the end it'll all be fine, but it's just you might have to go through two periods of structural/pressure adjustments.

Thunder,

On Sept 25, I go in to get the left side done.

I guess the thing that worries me most about your "week 5" post is that you're leaning towards thinking "GG and prostatitis are probably not closely related."

I am so psychologically and emotionally "beaten down" by this whole thing, that I am hoping-beyond-hope that unexplainable prostatitis is really just another symptom brought on by malfunctioning ISV's.

Disclaimer:  I must admit that after a lifetime of enlarged and painful prostate, I can probably be convinced that all the world's problems are merely symptoms of my malfunctioning ISV's.

Here's a question:  On July 31, Dr. Gat's office told me via email that they were not doing the procedure, but would be restarting in a few months.  When did you get the procedure done?  Do you think you were one of the last people to get it, or has he actually started back up again?

 

Dave,

I saw the Doctor yesterday, in preparation for my left-side procedure in two weeks.

I tried to diagram below, in a crude way, the insertion of the coils (not sure how it will look at your end.) The vertical column on the left is the ISV, and the branch on the right represents a collateral.  The string of x's represent a coil placed in the ISV, right at the intersection of the collateral.  This blocks the ISV and the collateral.  There is a coil placed in the ISV at each collateral (I have six, I think, in my right ISV.)

They use the coils when they can, because the "glue"-type agents tend to run through the vein to places where they don't want it.  I'm told that when using certain of these agents, a technician may have to apply external manual pressure somewhere down near the bottom of the ISV so that it doesn't run into the testicle.  Also, because it creates a chemical reaction as it cures, there could be a little pain.  He said that any skilled IR Dr can use either method, and the pain isn't great, and the agents are pretty good these days, but it boils down to which method he feels is more appropriate to the situation.  (I get the feeling the coils are just easier.)

Now, the million-dollar question:  What happens to that collateral over time?  Other than being blocked off at the top, nothing else is done to it.  Does it shrivel up and die?  Or does that column of blood stay in it for the rest of my life, thereby continuing to create hydrostatic pressure down below?  Depending on that answer, I may or may not get the results achieved by Dr Gat.  I sent a fax to my Dr's assistant a few minutes ago.  I will let you know if/when he answers.

  l   l   

  l   l

  l   l

  l x l

  l x l_________

  l x  ______    l

  l x l          l    l

  l x l          l    l

  l   l           l    l 

  l   l           l    l

  l   l

Some interesting comments from the NHS.UK site: Note a urologists skepticism on the GG procedure. Typical of those doctors who are opposed to change and have limited foresight.

notalwaystheprostate said on 10 September 2013
I am in the urology business and found these contributions very useful. I hope these comments help as well!
Firstly, TURP can be brilliantly effective and safe if the prostate is enlarged and causing obstruction but - its not always the prostate causing the problems! In many younger men the urinary problems are due to muscular problems in the bladder itself or at the neck of the bladder - which is why 'bladder neck incision" can work so well for them and has less risk of upsetting ejaculation.
Second, orgasm and the process of ejaculation is different in everyone. Some men don't need the ejaculation as much as others, some need it for full orgasm. Every man needs ejaculation for fertility. Try an alpha blocker drug 1st to see how it suits you and your ejaculation/orgasm (and your partner) before any operation that may permanently damage these processes.
Thirdly, many of us are interested in preserving ejaculation and orgasmic sensation. Operations can be "customised" to reduce or even avoid this damage completely but you need to find an interested surgeon. Ask them! Also Urolift has been designed to avoid damage to ejac/orgasm and is likely to be approved by NICE for NHS use shortly.
Fourthly, Cialis (tadalafil) helps both urinary and sexual difficulties. This benefit was discovered in the UK and licenced for both uses in the UK but is caught out by the restrictions brought in when Viagra 1st came out so GPs won't offer it in a hurry unfortunately. You may have to pay for it - or have an expensive and possibly avoidable operation- after which you can get an NHS prescription more easily! NHS arrangements don't always make sense!!
Finally, Gat-Goren. We need evidence. My patients who wanted to try it also found it difficult to make the arrangements in Israel. Their health system is similar to ours so if it works they should have scientific results to show the world by now but I have not yet seen convincing data.

treadstone said on 15 July 2013

I would not have TURP or HOLEP unless the surgeons agree to do the bladder neck incision.
In the USA there are big problems now with Retrograde Ejaculation issues . The Orgasms are not the same after surgery and can make you fell ill in some cases.
Surgeons need to look at bladder neck incisions which give you a 70% chance of proper ejaculations.
Yes you may be back in 5 years as the prostate closes up or refills but who cares.
In operation terms it is minor day case surgery.
Taking away the men's quality of conjugal life is nearly as bad as giving 16 year old ladies breast augmentation.
Where is the fairness or parity in healthcare to men, we hardly use the NHS in comparison to women.
There does appear to be a butchers philosophy blundering all the way with surgery in prostate terms
However high PSA levels are an issue, that do contraindicate this.
Please surgeons either pair the lower lobes away and leave the upper bladder neck intact or think about bladder neck incision.
Thank you chaps.

Robc, or anyone else,

feel free to email me at yudeng2004_@_hotmail.com about any questions with regard to the procedure.

Martin,

You have now discovered TWO new personal testimonials about the benefits of iodine on prostate/urinary function. Including your own report, the total number stands at THREE. And over at Curezone, Grizz--who knows everything about iodine--hadn't heard of these. (You should have the honor of emailing him.) These are very interesting, indeed.

Incidentally, I haven't noticed much with my own iodine supplementation, which is now up to 19mg a day. But fortunately the "detox" effect has finally eased off. So I'll have to push it up to 25mg a day soon, I guess. I switched to a non-fluoride-based toothpaste last week. This was overdue: I brush my teeth a lot and have long been worried about the fluoride I was getting.

-dave

Post Edited (Chicago Dave) : 10/21/2013 2:18:21 PM (GMT-6)

Dave: Well I have to thank you for bringing to my attention the role of iodine to the prostate. I was familiar with iodine replacement therapy but hadn't put two and two together. First, the role of iodine as an antiseptic in destroying bacteria that give rise to prostatitis with resultant inflammation and growth. And secondarily, the possibility of bromide, fluoride and chloride interfering with the uptake of iodine in prostate receptors. This in itself could be a cause for growth and infection of the prostate when you realize such is the case for Ovarian cysts and tumors, thyroid goiter, fibrocystic breasts leading to cancer etc. For those who want an education on iodine, here is an interesting lecture by Dr. Flechas.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=uc4Q3kzBSc4

The very fact that the prostate shrinks during Occlusion of the Internal Spermatic veins is an indication and testimonial that the Gat Goren procedure works. But, if one can reduce the inflammation & enlargement of the prostate through iodine replacement therapy, do the pressure gradients as measured by Gat improve despite the loss of the valves? Their can be additional, secondary and circumstantial evidence for the growth of the prostate, and one must keep an open mind.

Martin,

So iodine is supposed to help with bacterial prostatitis - what about the non-bacterial type? Also can you overdose on it?
Japanese men have a much lower incidence of prostate cancer, probably because they eat a lot of seafood?
Does iodine reduce systemic inflammation?

I am right now stuck in between a rock and a hard place because:
1) My veins are still in the process of fusing from Gat-Goren procedure since the veins will take more than 3 months to be absorbed, and the process requires a low-grade inflammation
2) I have non-bacterial prostatitis right now, and I want to get rid of the inflammation.

So I am stuck because I can't just go get rid of the inflammation without interfering with the Gat-Goren process (I verified this with a Chinese medicine doctor who refused to prescribe anti-inflammatory chinese medicine to me since he also understands sclerotherapy, he said it will need several months before I can go on the anti-inflammatory route).

I have to throw out all the anti-inflammatory diet stuff while I am recovering from Gat-Goren since it will make the healing process longer than normal.

Perhaps iodine is a way to get rid of the non-bacterial prosta*** without reducing systemic inflammation?

martin victor said...
Bob: Iodine Patch test does not work. Much of the iodine evaporates in the first hour. I know I am iodine deficient. Being mostly vegetarian, I do not eat fish nor marine vegetables like kelp. And 10 years ago when I took the iodine reloading test, I scored around 45. The score one would want to receive is 90. This means that on an intake of 50 mg of iodoral, you would urinate 45mg out in 24 hours or 90%. When your body urinates such a large amount out, it means you have cellular sufficiency of iodine. When your score is low...it means the body is uptaking the iodine and that you are deficient.