HealingWell
Search Close Search
☰

Gat Goren Method, Part 3

Support Forums
>
Prostate Cancer
✚ New Topic locked
1 2 3 4 5 67 8 9
❬ ❬ Previous Thread |Next Thread ❭ ❭
Posted 10/7/2013 8:06 PM (GMT 0)
I did not have an incontinence issue, or a retro ejaculation issue after the GL. I did have a severe urgency, burning, frequency and poor stream issue (read as more dribble than stream) that returned about 6 months post GL and has just now gotten better, 15 months after the GL, in conjunction with weekly self cathing and stopping the use of my BP medicine and drinking liquor. The GL also resulted in extreme burning/ bleeding / pain for about 9 weeks after the surgery. But everyone is different, and some people said they had no problems at all, although many did wind up with retro ejaculation. It's my understanding that the urethra inside the prostate regrows.

ac72 said...
Bob_NJ

thank you for your kind reply to my TIND question.
So there were never any problems with incontinence from the GL Laser for all the associated (temporary) destruction of the urethra, the prostrate itself taking the place of the lost section of urethra?

Post Edited (Bob_NJ) : 10/7/2013 2:40:14 PM (GMT-6)

Posted 10/7/2013 9:27 PM (GMT 0)
Thank you.

So who would have GL when they could have TIND?

Or am I missing something?

Posted 10/7/2013 9:53 PM (GMT 0)
Some questions come to mind.

1. What are the long term results going to be?
2. Is it available in the U.S and is it FDA approved?
3. What recourse does a person have for a botched procedure done abroad?

ac72 said...
Thank you.
So who would have GL when they could have TIND?

Or am I missing something?

Posted 10/8/2013 5:11 PM (GMT 0)
Hi Guys,

I did some more research on the PAE program. I talked to the folks in Minnesota who are engaged in trails of the procedure. There seems to be much more risks than with the Gat-Goren method. In american they tend to over medicate so I don't know why this procedure is more risky that GG. The Hugh red flag is Cipro. This class of antibiotics was for emergency use only. It can cause permanent brain damage and effect your entire nervous system. I would never take this drug. NEVER. so that said, there are other substitutes one can use. Here is the patient information.

Preparing for the embolization procedure:
1. Stop all prostate medication 1 week before the procedure.
2. Start an acid suppressing drug (omeprazole 20 mg once daily) and an anti-inflammatory agent (Ibuprofen 800 mg twice daily) for 2 days before the procedure and continue to take them for 7 days after the procedure. These are available as over-the-counter (non-prescription) medications.
3. Take an antibiotic called Cipro 750 mg twice a day for 10 days (start two days prior to the procedure). You will need a prescription from a physician for this. ( you must be joking!)
4. Do not eat anything after midnight prior to the procedure.

What to expect after the procedure:
1. The procedure takes from ½ hour to 3 hours. You will receive “conscious sedation” for relaxation and comfort.
2. You will need to lie flat for two to six hours after the procedure, depending on the method used to close the puncture in your artery.
3. Typically, post embolization syndrome includes pain and fever. This is temporary. It is most severe during the first 24 hours, then it improves. Ibuprofen is recommended to treat pain and inflammation.
4. You will be discharged with medication to help with this, if you need it. Urinary symptoms may worsen for the first few days following the procedure, then will gradually improve with time. If you have severely painful urination (dysuria) after the procedure we may need to place a temporary catheter to drain the urine from your bladder.
5. Mild retropubic pain, referred to as a burning sensation for 24 hours. For patients without indwelling catheters, urethral burning during voiding is the most common symptoms after PAE, it usually last 3 to 7 days and has been treated with non-opoid and nonsteroid anti-inflammatory drugs.
6. Minimal amount of blood in stool and/or urine was reported and was self-limiting.
7. In the Portugal group, approximately 10% had prostate re-growth, and needed re-treatment within 2.5 years.

These are uncommon complications of prostate embolization, but we need to mention them:,
1. Of angiography: rarely there are complications related to the puncture site, the use of a contrast agent or radiation injury
2. Pelvic Infection –any time the body is entered, there is the chance to cause infection
3. Ischemic Complication – cutting off the blood supply to other tissues, such as the bladder or rectum.
4. Sexual Dysfunction – if you had erectile difficulty prior to procedure, it might not improve
5. Nonprostatic embolization (bladder, rectum, genitals) -- the embolic particles go somewhere other than the prostate. This is less likely when the interventional radiologist injects the embolic particles by hand, rather than by using a power injector; and less likely when cone-beam CT technology is available in the angiography suite and is used to plan the injection.
6. Adverse drug reaction – allergy or sensitivity to a medication
7. Pulmonary Embolism – blood clot travelling to a lung

Comments please!
Posted 10/8/2013 6:55 PM (GMT 0)
Here's my comments, based on my own non-scientific observations and experiences.

First, I wouldn't do it myself. I had the GL 15 months ago and I found that all of the adverse effects affected me at about 10x the advertised amount.

Second, everyone is different, but I personally have found cipro to be the very best antibiotic, provided I observe the correct way to use it. I have had 14 days x 1000mg/ day several times in the last two years, once I had 28 days x 1000mg / day and have never had a problem. It really works for me to cure UTI's. It can cause some vivid dreams and can also cause a bit of insomnia, making it a bit harder to get to sleep, but otherwise it has worked really well for me so far. Another antibiotic in the same family, Levaquin, didn't work for me at all and gave me really weird dreams and drenching night sweats that saturated my clothes, pillow and sheets in a few hours. One thing I have found out about cipro is you shouldn't take any form of caffeine while taking it, because cipro prevents caffeine from leaving the body. So I will have one small cup of coffee on the first day and don't have another until I stop the cipro. You also have to space your dairy (eg yogurt to replace stomach flora) so it doesn't react to the cipro. If I am taking one cipro every 12 hours, I have my yogurt exactly at the six hour mark. I have also been taking one 500mg cipro once a week after self cathing, and haven't had any uti's in months, or any noticeable side effects.

Third, with my GL I had "conscious sedation" IV Propofol (my wife said, ooh, you got Michael Jackson juice) and it was excellent. It's like turning a light switch on and off. Out in seconds, and awake in seconds when it stops. No grogginess or after effects at all. Really excellent.

Fourth, I'd opt for Vicodin (tylenol with codeine) for pain. I popped one after waking in really bad pain from the GL and it quieted everything down in less than 10 minutes, and lasts for about 6 hours. Once again, everyone is different, but I find codeine really kills the pain for me.

Fifth, I don't think bleeding is a big issue. I bled like a slaughtered pig for about 9 weeks, every time I urinated the bowl looked like burgundy wine. But other than the aesthetics, it really had no effect.

Finally, I personally have no luck with the advertised results. All the adjectives used to describe the possible side effects of this procedure probably apply to the GL and any other prostate or bladder surgery. And some people reported having a GL, going out to dinner and drinks afterwards, and playing 18 holes of golf the next day. My experience was more like falling off the roof of my house and recuperating slowly and painfully for more than two months. They also say here that re-operation might be necessary in 2-1/2 years with this procedure. To me that means it might be necessary in 6 months if you are not so lucky.

DE-Marshall said...
Hi Guys,

I did some more research on the PAE program. I talked to the folks in Minnesota who are engaged in trails of the procedure. There seems to be much more risks than with the Gat-Goren method. In american they tend to over medicate so I don't know why this procedure is more risky that GG. The Hugh red flag is Cipro. This class of antibiotics was for emergency use only. It can cause permanent brain damage and effect your entire nervous system. I would never take this drug. NEVER. so that said, there are other substitutes one can use. Here is the patient information.
........................
Preparing for the embolization procedure:
1. Stop all prostate medication 1 week before the procedure.
2. Start an acid suppressing drug (omeprazole 20 mg once daily) and an anti-inflammatory agent (Ibuprofen 800 mg twice daily) for 2 days before the procedure and continue to take them for 7 days after the procedure. These are available as over-the-counter (non-prescription) medications.
3. Take an antibiotic called Cipro 750 mg twice a day for 10 days (start two days prior to the procedure). You will need a prescription from a physician for this. ( you must be joking!)
4. Do not eat anything after midnight prior to the procedure.

What to expect after the procedure:
1. The procedure takes from ½ hour to 3 hours. You will receive “conscious sedation” for relaxation and comfort.
2. You will need to lie flat for two to six hours after the procedure, depending on the method used to close the puncture in your artery.
3. Typically, post embolization syndrome includes pain and fever. This is temporary. It is most severe during the first 24 hours, then it improves. Ibuprofen is recommended to treat pain and inflammation.
4. You will be discharged with medication to help with this, if you need it. Urinary symptoms may worsen for the first few days following the procedure, then will gradually improve with time. If you have severely painful urination (dysuria) after the procedure we may need to place a temporary catheter to drain the urine from your bladder.
5. Mild retropubic pain, referred to as a burning sensation for 24 hours. For patients without indwelling catheters, urethral burning during voiding is the most common symptoms after PAE, it usually last 3 to 7 days and has been treated with non-opoid and nonsteroid anti-inflammatory drugs.
6. Minimal amount of blood in stool and/or urine was reported and was self-limiting.
7. In the Portugal group, approximately 10% had prostate re-growth, and needed re-treatment within 2.5 years.

These are uncommon complications of prostate embolization, but we need to mention them:,
1. Of angiography: rarely there are complications related to the puncture site, the use of a contrast agent or radiation injury
2. Pelvic Infection –any time the body is entered, there is the chance to cause infection
3. Ischemic Complication – cutting off the blood supply to other tissues, such as the bladder or rectum.
4. Sexual Dysfunction – if you had erectile difficulty prior to procedure, it might not improve
5. Nonprostatic embolization (bladder, rectum, genitals) -- the embolic particles go somewhere other than the prostate. This is less likely when the interventional radiologist injects the embolic particles by hand, rather than by using a power injector; and less likely when cone-beam CT technology is available in the angiography suite and is used to plan the injection.
6. Adverse drug reaction – allergy or sensitivity to a medication
7. Pulmonary Embolism – blood clot travelling to a lung

Comments please!

Posted 10/8/2013 8:36 PM (GMT 0)
Marshall: Thanks so much for that information on PAE. I wonder how the PAErs are doing. We haven't from one of them in quite a while.

Bob: Thanks for the information and admonition. It's been my experience, too, that every new medical (or dental) procedure carries unexpected risks.
Posted 10/9/2013 1:20 AM (GMT 0)
I am one of the PAE guys.
I had absolutely no side effects from the procedure.
No pain, no bleeding, no sexual side effects, no headaches, no nothing.

I also had no positive therapeutic results. I am at the 4.5 month mark.
It was clinically successful in that my prostate shrank from about 50 or so to about 35 but this shrinkage did not result in symptom improvement.

I still cath twice daily (since May) about 450ml per cath.

I am presently looking at options.
1. I'm being checked out by a neurologist to make certain nerve damage is not an issue. Had x-rays and MRI last week and a nerve study on Oct 24.
2. I go to a uro in Birmingham for a consult on possibly doing a bladder neck incision in late November. How come urologists are always booked 2 months out? Anyway, my local uro tells me this is what he believes will finally take care of me.
3. My radiologist in Virginia is looking at possibly doing a second PAE procedure if he feels the chance of success is there.

Even though the PAE didn't heal me, it negated the necessity of doing a GL laser procedure that I absolutely did not want to have...... if my uro is correct that the prostate has receded but my bladder neck is tight. So, that is a consolation prize.

I'm just not sold on anything yet. One thing bothers me. I started experiencing bladder pain again and knew I was getting an infection. Also, my prostate was obviously inflamed because inserting the catheter was more painful and more difficult. After 4-5 days on doxycycline, my bladder quieted down, my backache is lessening and my catheters are less tight. I will take for a total of 10 days and see what happens.

I'm seriously starting to think my prostate has infection causing the inflammatory swelling. But, I was on antibiotics for a month or more this summer during and after a hospital stay with pyelonephritis and my urine flow didn't improve at all.

ugghh. I just don't know what to think or do.
Posted 10/9/2013 1:54 AM (GMT 0)
Rphguy,

What size cath are you using, and how much volume do you void on your own prior to cathing?

Also, when going on your own does the urine cut off, leaving you feeling there's more, or does it feel like you are done?

Also, are you taking any meds that could create retention?

Since the last time we posted back and forth on the forum I moved up to a 16FR cath once a week, stopped my BP meds, and stopped alcohol. The result was an enormous increase in volume (from 3 or 4 oz, to 10-12 oz per void at night into the disposable urinal with cc and oz markings), decrease in times up at night from 5-6 down to 1-2, and a decrease in PVR from 150-200 ml down to 40-50ml. Also the cut off of stream after a second or two has ceased, as did most of the burning. I was completely discouraged and then this just happened and has continued for almost 3 weeks now. I have no idea what actually got fixed.

Something I was looking into before this improvement was videourodynamics, which is an xray procedure that videos the urine leaving the bladder in real time to find out where it actually gets blocked. I think there were only two urology practices (Virginia and Washington state) that offered this service, but I thought if all else failed, maybe finding out the actual point of the blockage would help pinpoint the cause. I feel the actual cause was probably the sphincters (either the external at the start of the prostate or the internal at the bladder mouth - or maybe both not syncing properly), but not sure why it got better. My prostate is presently about 50g. (down from 120g. according to my uro's estimate) but that doesn't seem to be
an issue at present.

rphguy said...
I am one of the PAE guys.
I had absolutely no side effects from the procedure.
No pain, no bleeding, no sexual side effects, no headaches, no nothing.

I also had no positive therapeutic results. I am at the 4.5 month mark.
It was clinically successful in that my prostate shrank from about 50 or so to about 35 but this shrinkage did not result in symptom improvement.

I still cath twice daily (since May) about 450ml per cath.

I am presently looking at options.
1. I'm being checked out by a neurologist to make certain nerve damage is not an issue. Had x-rays and MRI last week and a nerve study on Oct 24.
2. I go to a uro in Birmingham for a consult on possibly doing a bladder neck incision in late November. How come urologists are always booked 2 months out? Anyway, my local uro tells me this is what he believes will finally take care of me.
3. My radiologist in Virginia is looking at possibly doing a second PAE procedure if he feels the chance of success is there.

Even though the PAE didn't heal me, it negated the necessity of doing a GL laser procedure that I absolutely did not want to have...... if my uro is correct that the prostate has receded but my bladder neck is tight. So, that is a consolation prize.

I'm just not sold on anything yet. One thing bothers me. I started experiencing bladder pain again and knew I was getting an infection. Also, my prostate was obviously inflamed because inserting the catheter was more painful and more difficult. After 4-5 days on doxycycline, my bladder quieted down, my backache is lessening and my catheters are less tight. I will take for a total of 10 days and see what happens.

I'm seriously starting to think my prostate has infection causing the inflammatory swelling. But, I was on antibiotics for a month or more this summer during and after a hospital stay with pyelonephritis and my urine flow didn't improve at all.

ugghh. I just don't know what to think or do.

Post Edited (Bob_NJ) : 10/8/2013 7:59:14 PM (GMT-6)

Posted 10/11/2013 10:59 PM (GMT 0)
hello everyone.... I'm now one of the lurkers.... still around and finding the posts very interesting and informative.

Now, i'll answer the question.... how am I progressing?

18 months in from G/G..... life pretty normal, flow steady but not a fly off the wall stream - but in the main it's ok with some residual - which takes around 20 to 30 secs relaxing before continuing to empty. Visits normal daytime, some urgency when I really want to go but I think this is normal. Nightimes, back to getting up once or twice - may because I've gone back to drinking loads of green tea throughout the evening - so I'm not to bothered. Taking flomax now and again as it does have an improvement effect and although I can do without it, anything that helps, is worth taking. Overall, still happy with current position and still would be happy to live the rest of my life with the current improvement - but would always look to find a way to recover my youth - any suggestions? Not bothered seeing a urologist now for ages as I don't feel the need. oh yes, I have also been waking up with boners during the night and when waking up.. something not experienced for a few years...
Posted 10/12/2013 2:32 AM (GMT 0)
Thanks for the update, Andy. You are 18 months out. I didn't get a satisfactory result until about 22 months out--that was when the last big improvement occurred. (It's possible that I had another little improvement in the past few weeks, as I mentioned earlier. But without dramatically bad symptoms, the improvements are hard to identify.) Getting up at night isn't a problem for me even now, almost five months without Rapaflo. But I still have some mild discomfort sometimes during the day, especially if I take any water-soluble vitamins. I would like some further improvement too.

An off-topic aside on iodine: It's ironic that I started one or two guys on this board on iodine. I've been pushing a lady friend to try it for several months, and she's been ignoring me. Two weeks ago, a mammogram revealed a small "lump" in her breast. Of course, she's really worried about it. So I asked my alternative-medicine M.D. about today during an office visit. It was a parting conversation on the way out the door. But the M.D. said that she recommends iodine and Vitamin D to women for breast health. (Enough Vitamin D to raise blood levels to 60 or above. Vitamin D requires regular blood tests for monitoring.) I told my lady friend, but she's only just now beginning to pay attention when I showed her one of Grizz's posts about women using iodine for fibrous breasts.

-dave
Posted 10/13/2013 1:50 AM (GMT 0)
Dave: I am One month on iodoral (iodine). I did a Post Loading test with Dr. Flechas and scored a very low 37 mg after taking 50 mg at once of iodoral and collecting my urine for 24 hours. As you are aware and for the benefit of others , ...An excellent test score would be 90 which implies that about 90% of the iodine is excreted. The more iodine excreted, the greater sufficiency of iodine within the body. The theory is that a prostate enlarges when the cellular receptors are screaming for iodine.

An enlarged thyroid (goiter), fibrocystic breasts, uterine cysts etc are indicative of organs lacking iodine. Perhaps according to the iodine doctors, the same can be said for BPH. Tomorrow I start on 50mg...for maybe 3 months along with associated nutrient therapy. This regimen will hopefully bring me to the 90% level where my body is sufficient in this mineral. Since I am primarily a vegetarian, I lack the iodine abundant in fish and sea vegetables, a major component of the Japanese diet, who rarely get BPH and prostate cancer. Unfortunately, most vegetarians lack not only iodine but B12, and Omega 3's.

Iodine Slide Show:

http://www.slideshare.net/MedicineAndHealth14/iodine
Posted 10/13/2013 2:17 AM (GMT 0)
Martin: Okay, take it easy, and don't forget the supplements. I'm now at 38 mg a day of iThroid, but I'm not pushing myself.

Jorge Flechas of Hendersonville NC is your doctor? Fifteen years ago, I think he was doing therapy with oxytocin when that was the "in" thing. (I didn't see him, I just knew about him.)
Posted 10/13/2013 8:27 PM (GMT 0)
Bob, I started off in May using a 10 and hated it, very tight. After the PAE, I could use a 14 with no problems. This tells me the prostate shrank, no doubt. But, recently during the bladder/prostate flare-up, the 12s were extremely tight and painful to use. Been on doxycycline awhile and the 14s work just fine with no problem agian.

I take Lisinopril for bp, I've never really seen or heard that it is causing problems, but I just did an internet search and it seems that some folks have reported issues with lisinopril. I don't know. Being an rph, I should have heard of this if it was happening.

I'm able to urinate a great deal on my own, but it cuts off and I know I'm not empty. Between my bladder and diverticulum I have a large resevoir to hold urine. First time I cathed during an acute attack, I cathed out close to 800ml.

One cool thing.
6 weeks ago or so, I switched to rapaflo and cialis 5 so I could get off the flomax. The rapaflo caused 100% retrograde. I switched back to 1 flomax (instead of 2) and the cialis. It's doing at least as good as 2 flomax without the side effects........ and my BP has gone completely stable at about 130/78. The cialis helped my BP. My BP had been all over the chart on bottom number ranging from 80 to a 100 on any given day.
The funny thing is I've never had ED, so I was reluctant to take it. but, according to my uro, it works as good for bph as flomax in some cases.

I'm gonna think about this lisinopril and consider changing to something else to see what happens.

Bob_NJ said...
Rphguy,

What size cath are you using, and how much volume do you void on your own prior to cathing?

Also, when going on your own does the urine cut off, leaving you feeling there's more, or does it feel like you are done?

Also, are you taking any meds that could create retention?

Since the last time we posted back and forth on the forum I moved up to a 16FR cath once a week, stopped my BP meds, and stopped alcohol. The result was an enormous increase in volume (from 3 or 4 oz, to 10-12 oz per void at night into the disposable urinal with cc and oz markings), decrease in times up at night from 5-6 down to 1-2, and a decrease in PVR from 150-200 ml down to 40-50ml. Also the cut off of stream after a second or two has ceased, as did most of the burning. I was completely discouraged and then this just happened and has continued for almost 3 weeks now. I have no idea what actually got fixed.

Something I was looking into before this improvement was videourodynamics, which is an xray procedure that videos the urine leaving the bladder in real time to find out where it actually gets blocked. I think there were only two urology practices (Virginia and Washington state) that offered this service, but I thought if all else failed, maybe finding out the actual point of the blockage would help pinpoint the cause. I feel the actual cause was probably the sphincters (either the external at the start of the prostate or the internal at the bladder mouth - or maybe both not syncing properly), but not sure why it got better. My prostate is presently about 50g. (down from 120g. according to my uro's estimate) but that doesn't seem to be
an issue at present.

Posted 10/13/2013 8:40 PM (GMT 0)
I sent a request to gat/goren on 10 13 13 about how long I would it would take to make schedule a visit because of making travel arrangements from NYC USA for treatment.
The is the reply is below.
I find this strange that they would stop just from a money maker point of view.
From what I can tell the cost is about $15,000. if the do just 2 per day = $30,000 x 5 days =$150,000 x 50 weeks=
$7,500,000.
That is seven and half million my math is correct.
That is a lot of $ to be loosing on research or why did they not teach some other doctor to do this while they are on research?
I had my hopes on doing this and now I find this turn of events very strange. I wounder what is really going on?
Any thoughts guys?

Dear JJ,
unfortunately we can't register new patients now, since the team who deals with the prostate treatments are going out for a long research, and we do not know when exactly we will be able to schedule new treatments.

We will keep your details and will inform you immediately, when there are going to be new dates available

Best regards

Olga
Posted 10/13/2013 8:50 PM (GMT 0)
Supplement from Vietnam for BPH:

http://www.prostate-helper.com/crinum_article.html


What is Crinum latifolium’s relationship to Benign Prostatic Hyperplasia and Cancer?



There are over 500 successful case histories using Crinum for BPH. After seven years of research, the International Hospital in Vietnam reported that 92.6 percent of BPH patients had good results using Crinum (confirmed by measurements of prostate size and clinical evaluations by urologists).1



The doctors used the extract for 21-day cycles, with 7 days off in between. They reported no side effects and no lethal level in animals (meaning incredible safety). One of the patients in the study was a 72year-old man who had suffered from BPH symptoms for 3 years, often waking up 4-5 times per night with difficult urination. He was evaluated at the International Hospital in Vietnam and diagnosed with BPH with prostate dimensions of 4.1, 5.4 and 4.8 cm, with a weight of 53 grams. Previously, he had been advised to have his prostate removed, but because of a hypertensive condition, he tried a Crinum protocol instead. After only three, 21-day cycles of treatment, his prostate dimensions reduced to 2.9, 4.2 and 3.6, with a weight of just 22 grams. All his symptoms resolved and he reported feeling healthy.1 The National Health Committee declared Crinum to be the most promising area of research for the treatment of BPH.



In another Vietnamese study published in 2002, 158 Benign Prostatic Hyperplasia (BPH) patients were given a Crinum-based herbal preparation twice daily. After 64 days, patients were evaluated by clinical and ultrasound examinations. Researchers found that prostate size returned normal in 154 patients. They noted an incredible 97% success rate. A three-year follow up confirmed a high rate of long-term success for those patients who completed therapy.2



In 2001, a Vietnam Pharmaceutical Corporation published their findings that aqueous extracts from Crinum latifolium leaves from Vietnam showed in vitro and in vivo T-lymphocyte activation (Tram, et al., 1999) and retarded growth of chemically induced tumors (sarcomas) in rats (Tram et al., 2000).3



In yet another recent report from the Vietnamese Central State News Agency from September 2005, it was reported that “Crinum latifolium extract has a very good therapeutic effect on benign hyperthrophy of prostate (BHP)” based on the National Institute of Traditional Medicine of Ho Chi Minh City, and the Institute of Aging Disorders of Hanoi who tested Crinum in a large number of patients (627 patients) with BHP. The results showed a 33-93% reduction in urinary symptoms. 90% of the tested patients achieved a reduction in prostate size. Among them a significant number of patients achieved a normalization of prostate size and urinary health after three months of therapy. There was no significant adverse reactions noted.4
Posted 10/13/2013 9:01 PM (GMT 0)
JJSMNow: Their bread and butter (over 2,000 treatments) is for men with fertility problems using the same/similar ISV embolization procedure...So, I am sure they are not lacking patients nor money. Perhaps... prior to Gat doing more BPH procedures, he might need to prove the effectiveness for BPH to the Israeli authorities and gather more research...maybe even awaiting results for prostate cancer patients?????
Posted 10/14/2013 3:18 AM (GMT 0)
Martin:

Interesting lily, this Crinum latifolium. You can get it off of Amazon, but there aren't many reviews of it.

I had to look up that figure you quoted for the number of his infertility treatments, but sure enough, you're right. In fact, his website is now boasting of more than 2,500 successful for infertility.

Post Edited (Chicago Dave) : 10/21/2013 5:45:10 PM (GMT-6)

Posted 10/14/2013 3:17 PM (GMT 0)
Is the Gat-Goren procedure for BPH any different from that for fertility? I thought GG treated ISV failure (essentially closing off all failed veins and those feeding them in the area), which resulted in increased testicular health, thus increased fertility and, concomitantly an increase in free testosterone in the blood stream, and that the improved blood flow through the area had a healthful impact on BPH as a positive side effect.
Posted 10/14/2013 5:22 PM (GMT 0)
So, are GG performing "fertility" varicocele treatments? If so, if any guy is prepared to undergo the procedure for ANY reason, could he not merely say that he is seeking to improve his fertility and have GG perform the procedure now?
Posted 10/14/2013 7:45 PM (GMT 0)
Looks as if PAE has gone mainstream, unless this is another method:

http://treatmybph.com/
Posted 10/14/2013 7:54 PM (GMT 0)
Martin, That web page talks about "laser" treatment. I don't know what type of laser treatment it is, though.
Posted 10/15/2013 5:05 PM (GMT 0)
Rphguy,

Thanks for the update. I hope your nerve study later this month and your consultation in Nov. gets you some answers.

I had a couple of whiskeys last night and my burning, restricted flow and cut off of stream before I was finished, and increased number of voids returned overnight. So I think that is good evidence that drinking alcohol does contribute to my symptoms. I'll see if things go back to normal over the next day or two.

I notice that after my Sunday cath, my stream is much improved, and it starts to get weaker as I approach the following weekend. When I first started cathing weekly with the 16FR I was getting a lot of blood and rolled up tissue in the cath. Now it is minimal, though still a bit uncomfortable (but not like trying to put a new hole in my belt, like it was at first). My PVR is down to about 30ml, so maybe the larger cath widened up the passage.

It is still a big mystery to me what is really causing the blockage ... swelling, nerves, infection, scar tissues growing back in a few days, etc. I sure wish there was a protocol for actually getting answers to the cause and mechanics of the blockage. Seems like an xray video urodynamic done during urination would tell the story, but medicine does not seem to want to find a definitive cause. Maybe there's too much money being made peddling unsuccessful answers.

It's much like hypertension. No one knows the reason for it, but 60 million Americans are being treated for it. My BP varies 30 points or more day to day. If I take a hot shower I can lower my top number by 30 to 50 points for more than an hour. Prior to my first attempt at GL surgery, the anesthesiologist cancelled the surgery because my BP was 237/117. I guess lying on a gurney in a ward that looked like a horror movie can do that! I went home (against the doctor's advice), had a big plate of eggs, sausage, toast with butter and jam, and drank a half a pot of coffee. Then I took my BP. It was 120/80.

When I was taking the Micardis HCT BP med and the flomax together, my BP would drop to 88/48 after any sort of exercise. The whole room would go dark, like the blinds were being drawn until my pressure went back up. My GP's advice was not to stop any meds, but to eat salty potato chips.

Regards,

Bob



rphguy said...
Bob, I started off in May using a 10 and hated it, very tight. After the PAE, I could use a 14 with no problems. This tells me the prostate shrank, no doubt. But, recently during the bladder/prostate flare-up, the 12s were extremely tight and painful to use. Been on doxycycline awhile and the 14s work just fine with no problem agian.

I take Lisinopril for bp, I've never really seen or heard that it is causing problems, but I just did an internet search and it seems that some folks have reported issues with lisinopril. I don't know. Being an rph, I should have heard of this if it was happening.

I'm able to urinate a great deal on my own, but it cuts off and I know I'm not empty. Between my bladder and diverticulum I have a large resevoir to hold urine. First time I cathed during an acute attack, I cathed out close to 800ml.

One cool thing.
6 weeks ago or so, I switched to rapaflo and cialis 5 so I could get off the flomax. The rapaflo caused 100% retrograde. I switched back to 1 flomax (instead of 2) and the cialis. It's doing at least as good as 2 flomax without the side effects........ and my BP has gone completely stable at about 130/78. The cialis helped my BP. My BP had been all over the chart on bottom number ranging from 80 to a 100 on any given day.
The funny thing is I've never had ED, so I was reluctant to take it. but, according to my uro, it works as good for bph as flomax in some cases.

I'm gonna think about this lisinopril and consider changing to something else to see what happens.

Bob_NJ said...
Rphguy,

Posted 10/22/2013 12:04 AM (GMT 0)
PROGRESS UPDATE (2 years, 4-1/2 months post-procedure)

My lab results came back today. My Testosterone and Free Testosterone levels have been pretty stable over the last year. There's so much variation in Testosterone from one reading to the next that it's hard to see any changes unless they're really HUGE. A little less than October 2012, a little more than this April. Free T bounces around even more.
Posted 10/22/2013 2:10 AM (GMT 0)
Dave: I had a conference today with one of the iodine doctors. He recommended micronized silver (25 mg of Primasol) for BPH. This inhibits hyperplasia and lowers PSA. I was always concerned about a side effect of silver being a blue tinge to the skin. This only happens with a dose as large as 800 or 900 mg. The Doctor has been on 50 mg (one pill) of sustained release Iodoral for 13 years with no side effects. Given my low score of 37 for the loading test, it was recommended I stay on 50 mg for 6 months prior to doing a new test for saturation. After that, it would take another 5 years of therapy for complete cellular improvement. No emphasis was put on the necessity to take complimentary nutrition like selenium, magnesium, vitamin C, celtic salt etc...but I plan to do so anyway...at least for an indeterminate time. Nor did he mention any research on the benefits of iodine to the prostate, although reference is made to the fact that their are receptors in the prostate that absorb iodine.
For those interested in info on iodine therapy:

http://www.treeoflife.nu/DRCOUSENS/DRCOUSENSBLOG/tabid/364/language/en-US/~/Default.aspx?tabid=364&Postid=169&language=en-US
Posted 10/22/2013 7:40 PM (GMT 0)
Hi Martin:

A couple months back, I moved we take the iodine-related discussion off this board. I would like to repeat this suggestion now. We need more space to explore these issues, and people who come to this "Gat-Goren" board will not be interested in such discussions. We can post links to the other board(s) so that any interested folks can participate.

The Curezone Iodine forum would be an appropriate site. Even a new HW thread would be fine.

I know there isn't much real GG discussion going on here nowadays, but that will change whenever the clinic starts seeing new patients. I don't see anything else that will bring new posts to this site. Posts that are both relevant and interesting, I mean. I posted my best thoughts in the Summer, two years post-procedure and when I had NOT posted anything previously. I wanted to see how GG played out, and didn't want to post prematurely. I don't have much more to say about GG that I haven't already said. Of course, I'll continue to post periodic updates here, but my progress has slowed down from the improvement I experienced the first year or so after the procedure.

I've seen many patients make positive claims for various alternative medicine treatments at the beginning only to recant it all weeks or months later. Time and patience are the real test of success. I myself don't feel right posting frequent updates about alt-med treatments. I'd rather give the treatment time to stew and prove its worth, if any. But if I'm going to post, I'd rather do it on a forum where everyone understands the groundrules: All the reports are merely provisional, subject to recall and revision at any time (and without notification of same). To me, the GG procedure has already been very well studied and documented. It's different than most of these treatments we've been discussing. I fear that many readers don't appreciate that difference, and will confuse themselves. Additionally, some of these alt-med treatments are not totally safe.

Don't you guys agree that it would be a good idea to take iodine-related issues elsewhere?

As for silver...not for me. Let's discuss it on the other thread.
✚ New Topic locked
123456789