Gat Goren Method, Part 3

Hi Dave,

I agree the iodine and silver are somewhat off topic. I haven't heard anything on the forum to indicate it actually works for anyone posting here to improve LUTS symptoms. I don't know if such topics ought to be banned, but I would appreciate anyone proposing any treatment to tie it in with the larger theme of how it personally has or hasn't improved their own LUTS symptoms. This thread is the only one on the healingwell forum that deals with non-cancer prostate issues. I think it appropriate to discuss various prostate procedures and issues here, and how they do or don't relieve LUTS symptoms.

If the thread is restricted to discussing just GG, then there won't be many posts, because only a few members have had the procedure, and there's just not enough data to predict outcomes. There's only enough data to predict what the experience of having the procedure would be like if and when GG resume their practice. There's not enough data for anyone to confidently predict whether it will be as successful for them as it was for you and Andy and a few others. On that score, it seems to me that there might be a major hurdle with continuing to perform this procedure for GG, or they would have done so, or would at least have started to process applications for a definite future date.

Regarding outcomes, if you read the formal published NIH studies on various prostate reduction procedures and drugs, most show improvement for the majority of patients studied. Many people who have had various surgical procedures (even the GL) have posted on forums that their procedure worked great and solved all or most of their LUTS symptoms. Of course the majority of posters are those for whom the procedures have not been successful, as they are the only ones likely to stay interested in finding something that does work.

The Gat Goren adds the result of correcting a largely increased flow of testosterone to the prostate. But are there any studies to show this actually happens, and that this reduces LUTS symptoms? It does reduce prostate size, but so do all the other procedures. If the purpose of this thread is to prove the GG gets better results overall than other methods, I don't think it has or could do that. All it can do is share experiences by those who have had the procedure or might be interested in finding what (including GG) can help their LUTS symptoms.

Alternative supplements are a bit tricky because they can be dangerous and the positive effects hard to quantify and often quite controversial. For example, all scientific evidence is that saw palmetto has no beneficial effect, but many people still swear by it.
Are they having a placebo effect? It would be hard not to argue placebo effect for any alternative supplement, as there's no scientific evidence that any of them work. The same is true for various diets, be it primal or vegan, or raw food. I think most of us have tried a variety of supplements and had short term successes that failed to hold up over time.

Post Edited (Bob_NJ) : 10/22/2013 3:28:19 PM (GMT-6)

I believe any discussion on alternative therapy treatments for BPH that alleviate suffering is well worth discussing. Besides, the jury is still out on the Gat Goren technique. Of three people who visited Israel, Andyaction, Dave and myself, ...2 of the 3 have had excellent results. We are not here to be an endorsement of ISV embolization until further research and results warrant it. Dave...were not you under the impression that free T levels would increase up to 70%? After 6 months of having a rectal ultrasound, I myself saw no improvement in size of the prostate. That is not to say, that their has not been improvement, since I am now 15 months post procedure. I am not here to save the world nor be a billboard for Gat Goren. I do believe their theories on prostate enlargement are very much warranted....otherwise I would not have spent $16,000 on the procedure and an additional $5,000 in airfare and lodging. Time will tell!

Hi Dave and Martin,

I have participated in this forum because it is probably the only forum i have seen that has discussed the scientific causes of LUTS. Most forums are either of the variety of I tried xyz and it did or didn't work for me, or I am 4 weeks post procedure and I have xyz symptoms, when will they get better? While those forums provide social support and help to the posters, they lack what this forum has in the way of scientific discussion. The model of the overgrown prostate stopping the urine flow works for many people. Reduce the prostate and improve the flow. But some people who have had any of the surgical procedures (including GG) are going to wind up like me, saying "I have reduced the prostate significantly, but I still have a problem. What the heck is actually going on?" This forum has been a place to explore that.

ChicagoDave, Martin, Bob NJ, Skateman et al.

As a semi-lurker I periodically follow all posts with great interest.

I echo the comments that it offers the best of informed comment by members who have/are experiencing the effects of various conditions of the prostate and associated areas.

The dialogue on iodine and other suppliments may take a little of specificness from the GG thread but, as it is a follow on therapy to those of you who have already undergone more direct treatments, I would say it is relevant.

It is somewhat dissapointing to have an official of GG clinic confirm that there is no current treatment being given as I was told previously they would resume in August.

I know of one patient who was treated around this time. Incidently, the cost is now US$17K

Rob

 

man singh: Most of us are older men with BPH. I think Thunder might be more apt to answer your questions. Good Sex 3x a day. Wow! I wish I could turn back the clock, but first of all I need a willing partner. Happily married for 43 years...but once a day would be more than enuf.

Hi Guys,

I'm a new member. Thanks for all the info previously posted. My main question is whether PAE and GG are the same or just similar. Is GG far superior? Does anyone really know? Androloia article on GG website says"by occluding the internal spermatic veins bilaterally including the associated network of venous bypasses, which are vertically oriented". Are the same veins blocked in both?

I don't know if anyone has reported that right now there are open studies at major teaching hospitals comparing TURP to PAE. Problem is you may get either procedure since it's a double blind study. I spoke to the women in charge and she speculated that within a couple of years PAE would be available as a regular treatment covered by insurance and definitely by medicare. Don't know if I can wait that long. Embolization is done using embosphere microspheres ( trisacryl acrylic cross linked with gelatin) from Merit which has been used to occlude uterine tumors for over 10 years. Doctors/Radiologists were trained by Dr Caravale and teams of Brazilian Drs will be here to help. Sounds great if you're willing to roll the dice but I assume most people here are trying to avoid TURP. Here's a link to info. Scroll down to bottom to see where it's offered if interested:http://clinicaltrials.gov/show/NCT01789840

Thanks, everyone, for all the great information. This is the best thread I have found for the treatment of BPH, and varicocele embolization in particular.

I am 67 years old and only now starting to have significant problems with BPH. I have tried herbal remedies without effect (other than raising my blood pressure). I am waiting for an appointment with Urology.

I have also had a fairly large left side varicocele for decades, but it has not affected my fertility or sex life (as far as I know). A recent blood test showed that my testosterone level was quite low. Based on what I have read in this thread I am inclined to get the varicocele embolization procedure rather than surgery. I know that the GG procedure appears to be the gold standard in this area, but I cannot really afford the "gold" required.

I would like to get opinions about how standard varicocele embolization compares to the GG procedure. I know that doctors Gat and Goren are very compulsive about tracking down and sclerosing collateral veins. I live in central Florida and came across the website for South Florida Vascular Consultants (http://www.southfloridavascular.com/aboutUs/Video_Treatments.aspx) and in particular the video titled "Gonadal Vein Embolization." In the video, Dr. Julien mentions using coils and a sclerosing agent, and also looking for the small veins that could cause a recurrence of the varicocele. If this was done bilaterally, it would seem to approximate the GG procedure. An advantage to using Dr. Julien would be that the procedure would be covered by Medicare since I do have discomfort in the scrotum when I stand for a long period of time.

Any opinions on this would be greatly appreciated!

Skateman...thank you for those articles. The article mentioning renal problems is worrisome but I only have access to the abstract. It is unclear if they also used a sclerosant in addition to the coils. It would seem that the sclerosant would inhibit the migration of the coils.

Worrisome to me is the high failure rate (19%) of right side embolization since I/we would like bilateral embolization. I doubt that the surgical approach would take care of the varioius collaterals.

I didn't think about a valsalva maneuver making a varicocele more obvious...I do have one on the right as well doing this.

I will try to get an appointment with South Florida to be evaluated. I'll update this thread with any results.

By the way, if the internal spermatic veins are sclerosed, what other connecting veins could be considered "vertical veins?" I am not sure where a high hydrostatic pressure in the testicles would be produced in this case, except if there are duplications of the internal spermatic veins.

Michael,
check with your insurance company about whether or not PAE is covered or not.
My insurance, BCBS of Mississippi covered mine that I had done in Virginia.

In a previous post I had mentioned I always had gotten good results with cipro for several years now, and was taking it several times a year for prosta***/uti's and also took one pill whenever I self cathed to ward off infection.

There's a warning with cipro that it can damage tendons and ligaments and should be discontinued immediately if that occurs. Apparently it builds up over time in your body making the ligaments and tendons susceptible to injury when a certain level has been reached. I never thought it would happen to me but a few days ago, while on day 6 of cipro I was taking for high nitrites on my urine test strips (indicative of infection) my ankle swelled up like I had sprained it. But there was no precipitating event. I had no sort of strain or injury I was aware of. I had to attribute it to the cipro, and stopped taking it about a day after the swelling started, and the light bulb went off.

I read magnesium can help clear the cipro (or maybe clear the flouride that cipro contains) so I took a 500mg magnesium oxide pill for three days after stopping the cipro. I stopped the magnesium because it loosened my stools. It's been about 5 days and I can put a little weight on my foot, but it still looks like a pickled pigs foot and hurts at night. But it's better than no weight and walking with a cane, so I'm getting better. I've had night sweats the last two nights which I haven't had since taking Levaquin, which is another fluoroquinolone antibiotic like cipro.

At one point DE-Marshall posted on this thread that he would never take cipro. Now I have to agree with him.

BTW just and observation. Being hypothyroid, I've been following the iodine controversy for a while. Many people are fine with high doses of iodine and others are not. I would build up very gradually and definitely have my thyroid check out by blood tests as often as possible. It's definitely something to be careful about.

>>> BTW just and observation. Being hypothyroid, I've been following the iodine controversy for a while. Many people are fine with high doses of iodine and others are not. I would build up very gradually and definitely have my thyroid check out by blood tests as often as possible. It's definitely something to be careful about.<<<

"When animals or humans that are iodine deficient are given large doses of iodine, there is a transient decrease in thyroid hormone (approximately 26-40 hours) until the body reestablishes its equilibrium with iodine. After that time, thyroid levels adjust to normal and signs of hypothyroidism do not develop. " from Iodine Why you need it. David Brownstein 2009.....re: (Wolff,J. The temporary nature of the inhibitory action of excess iodide on organic iodine synthesis in the normal thyroid. Endocrin. 45:504, 1949...and Wolf, Jan. Iodide goiter and the pharmacologic effect of excess iodide. American Journal of Medicine. Vol 47. July, 1969. ....Dr. Brownstein takes 100 mg of iodine a day. If 12.5 grams of iodine is 100x the RDA, then Dr. Brownstein is taking 800x the RDA.

Martin, you wrote, "Dr. Brownstein takes 100 mg of iodine a day. If 12.5 grams of iodine is 100x the RDA, then Dr. Brownstein is taking 800x the RDA."
I think you mean "12.5 mg."