Gat Goren Method, Part 3

Hi Michael,
I made a similar inquiry:

Skateman said...
Posted 10/14/2013 10:17 AM (GMT -6)
Is the Gat-Goren procedure for BPH any different from that for fertility? I thought GG treated ISV failure (essentially closing off all failed veins and those feeding them in the area), which resulted in increased testicular health, thus increased fertility and, concomitantly an increase in free testosterone in the blood stream, and that the improved blood flow through the area had a healthful impact on BPH as a positive side effect.

Dave, who had the GG procedure, posted a reply (which he has since deleted) that, if I remember correctly, answered that he believed the same procedure was used in both situations, but the pre- and post-procedure tests were probably different depending upon the purpose of the procedure. However, as I indicated above in this paragraph, Dave deleted his reply.

Ira

Post Edited (Skateman) : 11/1/2013 1:22:18 AM (GMT-6)

Dave Michael & Ira,

Would a summary of your findings for the forum be feasible without breach of etiquette (or taking you too long)?

Post Edited (ac72) : 11/2/2013 1:38:13 PM (GMT-6)

If I go out of the forum and move to the telephone it would be because the conversation would be too long to be feasible as chat. I would be most happy to summarize any research or "discoveries". I completely feel we're in this together.

Martin:

Thanks for posting your serum T and Free T levels, which are excellent. I am so envious. It's good news that they seem to keep increasing so long after your procedure.

I'm not familiar with interpreting TSH levels. This is another one of those areas where there is a big dissenting group. But I'll take your word that it is an improvement. (As I remember, you are working with an MD already to help manage iodine.)

You mentioned the mid-lobe intrusion issue before. Sorry that your symptoms haven't noticeably abated in the past few months. I agree with your suspicions about bladder issues as part of "BPH" symptoms. I suspect that I too have a bladder whose lining has hardened. I date this change back to the late 1970s.

I suppose it's possible that there is one group of guys with BPH symptoms that really are related to the prostate rather than the bladder, and another group whose BPH encompasses both (and possibly other issues as well). My case would belong to the latter group.

-dave

rphguy...

I'm interested in the PAE procedure as I was recently diagnosed with BPH (July).

I can especially relate to rphguy's possessing a diverticulum because I have one as well. However, I plan to have mine removed before I proceed to a PAE procedure or any other.

I've thought about it quite a lot and to my way of thinking, it boils down to hydraulics. The bladder is essentially a pumping device and if it's not working effectively then it's not being very efficient. As the bladder contracts and pushes urine, if it has the opportunity to flow elsewhere into the diverticulum, instead of out the bladder neck, then to my mind, it's not working efficiently. Take away the extraneous diversion(s) (diverticulum) and conceivably you should regain a more focused/forceful outflow passing through the bladder neck and potentially add more volume.

I've mentioned this to a urologist and he's fairly in agreement. But these guys all consider themselves experts and won't acknowledge much of a contribution from a lowly patient...that's just my opinion.

I'd appreciate hearing from PAE participants, if there are more on this forum and to know more about their experiences.

This forum is very informative and thanks to everyone who has taken time to contribute.

Geoffz

Post Edited (geoffz) : 11/4/2013 10:28:12 PM (GMT-7)

Hi Martin,

I'm glad you have gotten positive test results due to both the GG and the iodine supplementation.

Being 15 months post GG, can you say your LUTS urinary symptoms (flow, frequency, discomfort, urgency and waking up at night to void) have also improved? If so, to what extent?

Both you and Dave have stated that there is probably a bladder component as well, and to that I would add the possibility of pelvic nerves and urinary sphincters affecting urinary flow, frequency, discomfort and urgency as well. Other than the procedures to widen the bladder mouth, none of the BPH procedures effect these other possible components of LUTS to any great extent.

With the Green Light Laser, my prostate was reduced by 70g., leaving 50g and a sizeable mid lobe intrusion into the bladder as well, but my uro said the intrusion wasn't blocking my flow at all. He also stated he had widened my bladder mouth during the procedure. After 18 months I am seeing some improvement in LUTS symptoms, and I would say I'm probably about 50% better than before my procedure, which I would have to attribute to the laser surgery. However the 50% that isn't fixed seems to be due to causes other than the prostate enlargement.
Bob

Attached is an article on research from the UK government's National Cancer Research Network. In June of 2013, the American Society of Clinical Oncology included in its program a report on a "food pill" that had a dramatic impact on men with prostate cancer.

I think this is really interesting for those with prostate disease including BPH when you consider that inflammation as represented by PSA can be a marker for these conditions.

http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2013/dec2013_New-Study-Reveals-Four-Nutrients-that-Lower-PSA-and-Slow-Cancer-Progression_01.htm

Bob: I was curious to see how much my T levels went up. Not as much as I thought. In April of 2012, prior to my procedure of August, 2012 my serum T was 728 and free T was 8.3. Today, they are 769 and 9.0. What is interesting is that after my procedure my T levels kept going down for months. At one point my reference levels were below normal. I kept scratching my head, trying to comprehend this conundrum, coming to the conclusion that the body in its infinite wisdom is adjusting to a new route from the testis. Now however.... they are on a continuous rise......much higher than average for one who is 71 years young.

Minh, please email me at yudeng2004 (AT) hotmail.com if you have any questions.

man singh said...
hey guys

ive tried to read as much as i could in 3 hours ..ive stopped reading now and obviously know that this forum is more about prostate cancer than varicocele (as it should be).

my problem is that i can't find any other forum other than this related to gat goren for almost 2 years now ...and so i feel only you guys can help me to answer the varicocele part (all of you who have undergone the gat goren method)

i am a 25 year old guy and got a varicocele on the left side when i was around 23 year old.. my libido was very good before the varicocele problem and i could have long and good sex 3 times a day without any problem ...where as after the varicocele strted devloping my libido dropped dramatically .. mostly i couldnt and mostly still can't get a second erection in the day....

1) do all of you with a varicocele have the same issue where your libido has dropped because of it??
2) has gat-goren method helped you regain your libido??
3) has the bag of worms kinna thing below the left scrotum totally dissappeard??
4) can you have sex 2-3 times a day just like your teenage after the gat goren operation??
5) should i go forward with this operation just for my sex life to get better or should not risk it??


sorry guys if its off the topic ...but seriously you guys are the only people going through what i am going through A.K.A VARICOCELE.

please help in answering these questions coz i dunno who to ask after this..

thx for reading

Some have mentioned here that a well functioning bladder is half the solution to BPH. Apparently size of the prostate is not the only criteria. Here is a product that might improve bladder functioning:

"Cysto Renew™, developed by Dr. Geo Espinosa, is a unique combination of ingredients designed to help calm the bladder and support healthy functioning of the urinary tract system. Each ingredient researched by Dr. Espinosa, a naturopathic physician specializing in urology, contributes to the health of the bladder glycosaminoglycan layer, nitric oxide production, healthy stress response, and normal mast cell production that helps promote a healthy functioning bladder and normal urine frequency.Functions:The wall of the bladder is protected by a layer of molecules called proteoglycans, also called glycosaminoglycans (GAG). Underneath the GAG layer is a layer of cells called the urothelium. In certain bladder conditions such as IC, both of the layers can be disrupted. Once they feel the trigger by an insult in the bladder, they send the message on to the submucosa, the layer right behind the urothelial cell and very rich in nerves and mast cells. Activated mast cells release histamine and cytokines in the blood, which can lead to chronic bladder irritation. Chondroitin sulfate is a proteoglycan and has been found on the surface of the bladder lumen. It is also a mast-cell inhibitor, and can help contribute to the strengthening of the GAG layer to support healthy bladder integrity. Research has concluded that the bladder lumenal and basal proteoglycans are associated with bladder function.Quercetin is a bioflavanoid that has positively shown in research to support bladder health by supporting the normal release of histamine from mast cells and basophils, and eliciting a healthy immune response.Bromelain is a proteolytic enzyme that plays a role in healthy systemic inflammation and cytokine balancing. It is often combined with Quercetin for favorable absorption and synergistic actions.L-Arginine and L-Citrulline are both amino acids that are precursors to nitric oxide production, a substance that relaxes smooth muscles like those found in the bladder.

Thunder,

It sounds like your GG procedure was a success. Hope you continue to heal and improve as time passes. I noted from another forum I belong to about the Greenlight laser, that some people get some symptoms for a day or two following sexual activity. I do as well. But I have been sexually active since ten days after my Greenlight laser turp. I guess I'd rather live with the symptoms for a day or two afterward than give up on the sex. I'm not sure how old you are, but at 67 I try to pack in all the enjoyment I can, because you never know how long it will last.

thunder2004 said...
Hi guys,

It's been 3 months now since I had GG, and basically on most days the scrotal varicocele I had from before cannot be felt anymore. However, if I sit for too long, or after ejaculation, the varicocele will come back in some form and also the "congested" feeling I have around the pelvis area will come back.

Also, if I am stressed, or if I don't sleep well, then I feel some weird soreness near the area where Dr. Goren put in the sclerorizing agent. I am guessing that area is still a wound and it just gets more sensitive if I don't sleep well like wound on the skin.

My urination symptoms are all improved and I have no dribbling or thin stream at the end of urination anymore.

My guess is that I have still some weird veins in the area but they are not related to the internal-spermatic veins as those are sealed. And these veins get dilated if I sit for too long or after ejaculation.

My plan is to basically abstain from sitting too much or be aroused so the pelvis area can get back to normal.

Martin and Rob: Thanks for the interesting exchange about this supplement. Amazon reviews are usually more credible than vendors' websites.

Marshall: Thanks for the heads-up on IP-6. I'm glad it helps you! I never heard it mentioned before in relation to bladder issues. (Did you mean "cadmium"?)

I had another aggravation the past two weeks, but it seems to be better now. I'm trying out a lot of supplements (for non-urinary issues), so it could be any of them. I promise to update in a year after I've figured out which supplements--if any--actually help.

{Edited: A Google search indicates that IP-6 is being touted as an anti-cancer, especially anti-prostate cancer, treatment. And African Potato (Hypoxis) has been reported to help with BPH.}

-dave

Post Edited (Chicago Dave) : 11/25/2013 11:52:17 AM (GMT-7)