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Gat Goren, PAE, LUTS, Part 5

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Posted 11/22/2014 5:18 PM (GMT 0)
One thing I really like about this website is that even when people have conflicting opinions we've managed to keep the discourse civil. I have learned a tremendous amount from the experiences of people here and I'm really grateful for what has been shared.

As mentioned before, I'm very interested in the varicocele procedure. It seems like the closest thing to the Gat Goren available in the US (or Europe) to those of us with limited funds. It seems there are two ways it is done. Previously, mostly by microsurgery by a urologist. Now more vascular centers, run by interventional radiologists, are doing it for pain in the balls or for fertility. The interesting thing is that statistically the microsurgery "reportedly" has less side effects. The problem with the interventional radiology varicocele is the possibility of the migration of the platinum coils they use to close the veins. Of course all this depends on whether they use the platinum coils or only sclerosing fluids. Sometimes they use both. On the other hand, the problem with microsurgery is what may be accidentally cut. Also the two different approaches may not close off exactly the same veins. I'm still researching all this but it seems like a really fruitful direction to pursue. Thunder knows a lot about this but haven't seen him comment lately.

In another "vein', some folks were experimenting with progesterone cream trying to deal with the obvious hormonal effects that are somehow involved with BPH ( note that the Japanese on traditional diets have very low BPH probably due to soy and estrogenic effects). Any results on the experiment with the creams or info on that approach?

Thanks!
Posted 11/22/2014 5:20 PM (GMT 0)
PS: Ehe other problem with the interventional radiology approach to varicocele is not being able to close off the desired veins because of anatomical anomalies.
Posted 11/22/2014 6:01 PM (GMT 0)
I thought I would jump in on this discussion. I recently had the Gat Goren procedure and wanted to explain why I did it in spite of the risk of failure. When I first went to my local urologist the receptionist had me sign a release basically saying you might die from what we do and its not our fault. Well it said it more diplomatic fashion but that’s what it said. Then in meeting with my Urologist he recommended a button turp. I asked him is there a possibility I could become incontinent after the procedure. He said "we would not expect that". Hmmm we do not expect was not what I wanted to hear. My urologist’s is fair minded guy he even recommended some supplements and cooperated with me in getting the needed tests required by GG. After 3 years of trying everything I could I decided I need to try GG so I called, emailed GG patients came up with this, searched the web.
Liamireland success
Chicago Dave success recent setback
Golfosca success
andy action success
thunder failure
martin victor neutral, maybe success prostate has not grown
martin victor has direct knowledge of an Israelite patient that had success
Amichai (64) off the website we exchanged email success
http://www.pirion.co.il/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=20&Itemid=22&lang=en

7 out of 8 close to GG claim of 80%
Now putting things in perspective, if you have BPH the choices are well, if you’re on this site you know the options out there stink. I tell you if was 50/50 I would still opt for GG based on what I know now. It’s a lot of money true I am not rich. Realistically I have spent thousands on books and supplements, teas strange diets yoga positions and entered bathrooms that I preferred not to . And in reality when it comes to health you pay. My dentist wanted 20k to remove my Mercury and put in one bridge (incidentally didn’t help) I went to another Dentist. But I have friends that forked over 20k plus to dentists. Teeth versus my "other important organ" teeth lose.

Let me explain a little about my GG experience. 1st the hospital wow it’s the nicest I have ever seen see link below its done in the cath lab

http://www.amc.com.cy/en-us/aboutamc/virtualtour.aspx

The procedure is easier than going to the dentist . 2 slight pinch sensations when they apply local anesthesia. Dr Yigal Gat did not do the procedure Dr Alain Perlow does and the two consult in Hebrew (Man I wish I new what they were saying). He makes the incision adjacent to the penis where your groin meets the leg on the right side. Don’t worry its nowhere near the penis. It is small It’s so small I could not even Identify the actual incision location. There was bruising the size of quarter that grew a little. The next day was little sore almost like a slight muscle ache. Day after one time felt dizzy when I went to urinate for about minute that passed and did not return. Success will see time will tell I will post my progress or lack thereof. In prior posts some have questioned why does Dr Gat not respond to our forum? Google Gat Goren and you get 86,000 results is it reasonable to expect him to jump on our thread? On the cost well there are 2 Doctors and 2 nurses and a hospital room that costs lot of money. Also of note on my trip there were 4 people having it done 2 a day. 2 from Israel and 2 elsewhere one of those being me. It’s interesting that others were willing to pay the price that tells me that there are good reasons to proceed with this. Am I 100% emphatic this is the way to go? Nope. It’s the best I could find I hope I will be on the success list. With all due respect to everyone this is just my 2 cents as they say

Post Edited (Jeff@57) : 11/22/2014 4:55:04 PM (GMT-7)

Posted 11/22/2014 8:40 PM (GMT 0)
Guys: I'm showing my email address in my profile for the next couple of days so folks can contact me.

###

Martin: You deserve better results than you got. In a world where results and virtuous knowledge are closely linked, you'd be sitting pretty now. Sigh. Too bad that neither of us live in a perfect world.

I'm trying the stinging nettles (Eclectic's fast-frozen) you mentioned. So far I don't notice much. I will keep you posted. My experience is that supplements (except cranberry concentrate) never did much for me. Regarding my current condition, it's okay, but not as good as it was this summer.

I might have no alternative but to lose weight. Sigh. That would make my personal physician happy. eyes

###

Golfosca: Thanks for your update on your results. And thanks for the background information on GG. I usually don't like theorizing or speculation on this board because there is no end to it and and a lot of it is necessarily not well grounded. But your posted info was a refreshing exception. It fills in some gaps from my understanding of the history of the development of Dr. Gat's theories. I wish I could have been a fly on the wall when you shared morning coffee with the doctors.

I heartily agree there should be a Nobel here for whoever unravels the PC/BPH etiology which so incredibly common in older men.

I agree with Skateman and Martin about how GG handles the ISV. I do believe the ISV is sclerotized, unless they've changed their procedure since 2011. I was not aware of how they handled the "transverse' veins. Are those the same thing as the "collateral" veins that they've been sclerotizing for years? (Despite a recent suggestion to the contrary, "Skateman" is real and has been on this board a long time. I talked or emailed with him at length many months ago.)

There's been a lot of speculation on this board regarding local alternatives to GG. Guys who are considering such things such be particularly interested in the details of GG, including how GG handles "transverse" veins. One thing that does stick out in my mind is that the GG procedure itself is always bilateral, despite the GG patent cited earlier, which also covers unilateral ISV sclerotizations. But I'm foggy about any other differences between GG and the standard varicocele repair procedures of the interventional radiologists. My interest in this is pure curiosity. (Which is not a big motivator for me in this regard! Which means I'm happy to read about what other guys discover in this area, but I'm not going to research it myself.)

###

Jeff: Long time no hear from! Please keep us updated. This board works best when real patients (PAE, GG, urolift) post their experiences. So do provide more grist for out mill! I'm surprised your urologist helped you get the tests you wanted. Very unusual!

BTW, I like your summary of the success/failures on this board, but I have a quibble. I would probably remove Clap (who never had the procedure) and add Thunder (who did have the procedure). This replaces one "No" with another "No," without changing the overall tally.

Oh, and did you say teeth? smilewinkgrin Anyone who wants to talk teeth can drop me a line (or show your email address in your profile).

###

Clap: If I no longer respond to your posts in the future, don't think it's because you've finally convinced me. Posting on this public forum is like fighting with one arm behind my back. I self-censor and try to get responses which won't offend anyone. Besides, I have a lot to do, and have been less active on this board then in the past.

You are welcome to email me if you're so inclined. Ten minutes of private phone discussion is worth about 100 hours of posts.

It feels good to be in the pro-GG majority for once! Of course, that could change overnight if our two new guys don't get the eventual outcome that their early results seem to promise. However, I will strive--as I have always striven--to be fair-minded and reserved in my comments lest some reader is inadvertently offended.

There are a lot of people reading this board, not just those few who post. Let's not forget this, guys. And I'm trying to encourage reports and discussion from are PAE and med device members, too.

Most of the guys I've met on this board in the past 16 months or so are not typical of most American "consumers" of health-care. Most guys here have been both open-minded (to new suggestions) and skeptical (knowing that 90% of remarkable claims won't pan out). And they have frequently been very resourceful in uncovering entirely unexpected information or alternatives.

You describe yourself as "suspicious", yet I think that a better attitude is to be skeptical yet open-minded. BTW, some of your comments may come off as more judgmental than you think.

###

Guys: I just finished reading a great story in today's (Nov 22-23) Wall Street journal. It's a page-one story telling how a once-standard hysterectomy procedure exacerbated the spread of cancer in some patients. I recommend the story to anyone with an implicit faith in the good intentions of the medical establishment.

This quote goes to the hive-mind mentality of specialists: "He said I could have gotten a second, third, fourth and fifth opinion, and they would all say the same thing." The speaker was referring to gynecologists, but it could apply just as well to many other specialists.

Most of time, for most patients, specialists get it right. But sometimes they get it wrong. And when they get it wrong, they can all get it wrong together.
Posted 11/23/2014 2:17 AM (GMT 0)
Hello Liam. Ever felt so like a voice in the wilderness?
Like you, I wanted to see whether it might be possible to introduce the procedure into Australia. I have just been obliged to accept that it's too big a job for me, as evidenced by this extract from a professional that I approached: "if it were to be done in a private or public hospital it would require at least one trial to be done first which would need a suitable protocol and ethics committee approval. I am advised it is unlikely this would gain approval at the current time in Australia given the level of evidence currently presented. I have also spoken to a private interventional radiologist who has given me similar feedback. Finding someone prepared to stand alone and do this procedure without peer endorsement or via an ethics committee approved trials seems to be the major hurdle. The theory behind the procedure makes sense but is currently considered fairly left field and not the current direction in terms of research in BPH." In other words, the urologists won't vote for it.
Skateman, you shouldn't take my observations so personally. It's not about you. I stand by my statements. I said that I wouldn't post links because I believe that if you care enough about the topic you will follow up yourself. Nevertheless, start with WikiPedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benign_prostatic_hyperplasia which itself gives some links to follow. The best explanation of the procedure and the results that I found was in the European Urological Review, titled "Reversal of Benign Prostate Hyperplasia by Super-selective Intraprostatic Androgen Deprivation Therapy". If there was a way to attach it to this post I would. I can't remember how I found it but if you or anyone want a copy just email me, paul at mander dot net dot au. The statistics came from Drs Gat and Goren in response to my query and are also mentioned in the article.
ClapHammer, you're just too much for me. Keep up the scepticism and enjoy. If you like the status quo so much, why don't you just go and have a TURP? Here's the favour you ask; I'm sure that the radiologists are just as keen to make a buck as any urologist or even you or me. The reason they don't rise up and embrace this opportunity is that they live in blissful ignorance of it, and urologists are not going to hurry to wake them up. If that dreadful day comes when the urologists' established procedure is under challenge, it is possible that some of them might go back to school but you're talking about going back to grade one.
Hello MartinVictor, sorry about your median lobe. I know nothing about that issue but one picks up on this thread that an enlarged median lobe seems to be a show stopper. I'm sorry that you're in the unlucky 15-20% segment, but thanks for your positive good wishes. We're about the same age.
I agree with the various observations about the lack of communication from the GG team, I found it difficult to get a conversation going at first. They're pretty ordinary communicators but then they are pretty busy. The son Jonathan has taken over the communication role and he can be reached on jonatangat at gmail dot com.
Posted 11/23/2014 1:04 PM (GMT 0)
Dave: You are wasting your money with Eclectics nettle formula...You need the stinging nettle root, not the leaf which will have little if no effect on the prostate. Medi-Herb from Australia makes some of the finest extracts.

https://www.standardprocess.com/Products/MediHerb/Nettle-Root-12#.VHHYO74-CqR

Also, I suggest purchasing the MediHerb extract called ProstaCo which contains crataeva stem bark which improves the efficiency of the bladder.

https://www.standardprocess.com/Products/MediHerb/ProstaCo#.VHHWxb4-CqQ

I have a fairly decent knowledge of nutrition and the formulas that might work to enhance health. My wife and I studied biochemistry and nutrition some 25 years ago at one of the finer accredited schools in the country. She has an M.S. degree. I never completed my degree given the time I needed for my watch business. You might have seen some of my ads on national television like CNN and in magazines like National Geographic.

One thing I must say. The individuals on this board stand out for their intellectual curiosity and desire not to accept traditional medical orthodoxy given that there must be a better way to treat conditions related to the male anatomy.
Posted 11/23/2014 9:34 PM (GMT 0)
Gofolsca
I am happy you found the publication of GG in the European review of urology which I mentioned and commented in my post dated 11 19 2014 concerning the ISM veins sclerotization with collaterals and by-pass if any.
Posted 11/23/2014 11:02 PM (GMT 0)
For those of you who did not benefit from ISV embolization, and only getting suboptimal response from herbal suppliments, I suggest trying to use a Herbal Suppository. There is a brand called ProsCure you can purchase from Amazon, it worked pretty well for me in reducing my prostatitis symptoms.

Think about it - in suppository form - the herbs are MUCH closer to the prostate (in fact they are right next to it) instead of having to survive your digestive tract.

I would also suggest walking 2-3 miles per day.
Posted 11/24/2014 1:43 AM (GMT 0)
Thanks for the heads up on ProsCure. I always felt a rectal suppository with a herbal formulation was a good idea.

How you doing by the way?
Posted 11/24/2014 3:51 AM (GMT 0)
Martin: Thanks for the heads-up on the nettle. Root, not leaves. Duh! That would explain why it wasn't doing a durn thing. I'll keep the board posted. What's the name of your watch company by the way? It always amazes me the amount of talent we have on this board.

Thunder: I stopped walking as much last month. Maybe that had something to do with my setback in symptoms. It's always good to hear from you!
Posted 11/24/2014 1:15 PM (GMT 0)
Dave: This website gives much information on the chemistry behind stinging nettle root and the prostate:

http://www.rain-tree.com/nettles.htm#.VHABR74-Du0

Nettle has shown an affinity for Sex Hormone Bindiing Globulin (SHBG). It is closely related to levels of free testosterone and estrogen. Most of these hormones that travel through the blood stream are "bound" to SHBG, resulting in less free testosterone. Studies have shown that men with BPH have elevated levels of SHBG in their prostate glands (Jiang H et al 2004), thus any nutrient that reduces the levels of SHBG may also be able to reduce BPH.

The active ingredient in stinging nettle root that is responsible for increasing free testosterone is Divanil. People that are in the body building business often take supplements with Divanil to increase their free testosterone. Now we both know that Dr. Gat believes that it is primarily high levels of DHT from failed spermatics that bathe the prostate and cause hyperplasia and hypertrophy of prostate cells. So theoretically if you can decrease the DHT in the blood stream, prostate growth will be lessoned. It is nettle from the active ingredient Divanil that inhibits DHT from binding to the prostate membrane and secondarily also inhibits certain enzymes which cause testosterone to convert to DHT. Some feel it is also excess estrogen that is involved in prostate enlargement. Estrogen is essentially the evil stepsister to the metabolite DHT. As we age it is believed that 5 alpha reductase activity actually calms down in the order of 10% per decade past the age of 25. In order for estrogen to impart its effect, it has to stick to SHBG while this protein is attached to the prostate cell membrane. This linkage between E2 (Estradiol) and SHBG while attached to the prostate cell membrane directs IGF-1 (insulin like growth factor) to stimulate the actual growth of the prostate cells and increase the volume of DHT receptors. Nettle binding to SHBG halts this entire process because the linkage to E2 and DHT on the prostate cell membrane won't happen.

Now that you are thoroughly confused, I will mention just a few stories about my watch company. I sold it some 24 years ago when I was 48. I started it when I was 29 years old in my garage. It was difficult times with a wife and two babies. Creditors tried to foreclose on my house twice. An order from Avon Cosmetics for 50,000 watches saved the day. They had wanted to see my factory, but that was a whole other problem. I started looking for a factory to rent, but convinced them see me my company at a New York City trade Show. I took several booths, hired a few good looking models and even got the $200,000 needed to start the order from Avon. From there, we went into retail, advertising specialty, mail order, television etc. One of my watches (not to be political) is at the Reagan Presidential library with Reagans signature on it and the Presidential Seal die struck on a gold dial. I have lots of stories including the time when the Wall Street Journal falsely mentioned an order by SAS airlines for 25,000 solid gold watches for its employees. They were really gold plated.
Posted 11/24/2014 2:51 PM (GMT 0)
Thunder2004. 'For those of you who did not benefit from ISV embolization, and only getting suboptimal response from herbal suppliments, I suggest trying to use a Herbal Suppository. There is a brand called ProsCure you can purchase from Amazon, it worked pretty well for me in reducing my prostatitis symptoms. Think about it - in suppository form - the herbs are MUCH closer to the prostate (in fact they are right next to it) instead of having to survive your digestive tract.'

Perhaps someone has an idea to make a suppository from stinging nettle roots being careful, of course, not to get any leaves mixed up with the 'mass'.
Posted 11/24/2014 4:56 PM (GMT 0)
Martin: Thanks for the backgrounder. I'll try this. Every little bit helps, especially if it helps me stick to a weight-loss diet.

Your story about the Avon order was precious!
Posted 11/24/2014 5:06 PM (GMT 0)
I have a question about Gat Goren/varicocele - not directly related to prostate problems but this forum seems to have a wealth of information so maybe someone can advise.

Had varicocele for approx 20 years (since teens). Would like to start a family and concerned about how it may affect my fertility (and whether it could cause prostate problems in future). Plus it can be uncomfortable sometimes.

Can someone explain the difference between the Gat Goren procedure and varicocele embolization for someone in my position? They seem the same/similar from what I understand - but I understand very little.
Posted 11/24/2014 9:02 PM (GMT 0)

dhi3009 said...

Can someone explain the difference between the Gat Goren procedure and varicocele embolization for someone in my position? They seem the same/similar from what I understand - but I understand very little.


A difficult technical question. For one thing, GG is always bilateral, and most standard varicocele embolization procedures tend to be unilateral. I assume there are other subtle--yet potentially important--differences as well, but I don't have a good answer to this $64,000 question. I just don't know. An excellent question for your doctors.

According to Dr. Gat's theories, varicocele is associated with some types of male infertility. (The testes don't get as much blood flow as they should.) Someone posted last year that GG had done hundreds of these procedures already just for male infertility. There should probably be some peer-reviewed papers on his website giving details for the curious.

HTH. Best of luck to you whatever you do.

Edited. Added "yet potentially important"

Post Edited (Chicago Dave) : 11/24/2014 6:36:33 PM (GMT-7)

Posted 11/26/2014 4:59 PM (GMT 0)
Hi Martin

I saw this guy on utube he has a nettle root product curious yours or anyone else thoughts on it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdnFlW8OArM

http://www.rawforestfoods.com/nettle-root-extract-beta-sitosterol-capsules-home/

Thanks!
Posted 11/27/2014 6:26 PM (GMT 0)
Jeff: This is a very impressive video. I have seen it once before. I am not familiar with the company but judging from the video they seem very trustworthy. I prefer using Medi Herb's nettle root, a division of Standard Process Co. (See previous post for info). Their herbal extract is a Nettle Root 1:2 (one metric teaspoon a day or 5 ml) which seems more concentrated than the product advertised in the website. Understanding the label of an extract and knowing the quantity of the herb you are taking can be very complicated. Here's is some info:

http://spofscc.com/uploads/Reading_a_MediHerb_label_by_Linda_Ryan.pdf

The video you refer to talks about beta sitosterol as being the active ingredient. Divanil is actually the active ingredient and perhaps this belongs to the beta sitosterol family.

Happy Thanksgiving everyone and also to those not in the U.S.
Posted 11/29/2014 11:33 AM (GMT 0)
Jeff@57:

scanning all the posts for members' results is difficult and not practical, but you have started something that can be continued and perhaps improved on - and I mean a short list of results.

here is my suggestion for a continually updated list. any member can copy/paste the following format and correct it as far as himself is concerned. that way the list is carried down the forum for easy reference:

GG, with at least some improvement and no side effects:

chicago Dave, LiamIreland, Golfosca, andyaction, nosheds, martin victor

GG, no improvement:

thunder

other procedures (please add names) with improvement, no side effects:


other procedures (please add names) with improvement, but with side effects:

using herb therapy (please add names) with improvement, no side effects:
Posted 11/29/2014 11:39 AM (GMT 0)
this is just an example of an addition to the previous list:



GG, with at least some improvement and no side effects:

chicago Dave, LiamIreland, Golfosca, andyaction, nosheds, martin victor
mv knows Amichai - an Israeli with improvement
nosheds knows four Israelis with improvement (in addition to myself)

GG, no improvement:

thunder

other procedures (please add names) with improvement, no side effects:


other procedures (please add names) with improvement, but with side effects:

using herb therapy (please add names) with improvement, no side effects:
Posted 11/29/2014 12:31 PM (GMT 0)
nosheds...You previously wrote in June

>>> just to update: 5 months after GG procedure my prostate shrinked somewhat, from 123cc to 108 cc. night time frequency is now 1-2 from pre procedure 2-4. even though there are ups and downs, I hope...<<<

As I have indicated in the past, after 6 months my prostate size remained the same. After 5 months you indicate a decline of only 10% but a 50% decline in night time voiding. I believe the greatest progress is made within the first 6 months of the procedure.

Has your condition improved since June?
Posted 11/29/2014 3:51 PM (GMT 0)
martin victor,

I am waiting for the one year volume check by Gat. otherwise it is about the same as expected.

by the way, do you agree with yourself placed at "GG with at least some improvement" ? if not you can
copy/paste the entire list and remove your name from that category.
Posted Yesterday 3:44 PM (GMT 0)
Jeff57 22nd November 2014.

<i>Amichai (64) off the website we exchanged email success
http://www.pirion.co.il/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=20&Itemid=22&lang=en</i>

I don't think that 'success' posted on the Gat-Goren website are that relevant. Are there, for instance, posts by clients who have not had any significant improvement after undergoing the GG procedure.

More relevant is the difficult fact that there are no peer reviewed success vs failure rates for this procedure and the as yet unexplained move of the good doctors to Cyprus from Ramat Gan in Israel. The good doctors silence on the move is, at the very least, suspicious. Especially, as I have written before, a move to one of the more medically controlled countries, like the UK and US of A, would surely be a better business move. All assuming that the good doctors would survive scrutiny as to their actual success rate.

Please don't take the above as anything but happiness for those telling us of the success of the procedure. I now have a better understanding of people with a serious possibly life threatening disease, who will pay anything and do anything to just survive. And they sometimes get tangled up in dubious 'cures' that have one thing in common. A lot of money leaves them passing to someone else.

The thought of curing my 'frequency' with little more than an inconvenience of a few hours in a hospital for a not to large sum of money, without any significant danger to my bodily functions and sexual performance, is a great lure.
Posted Yesterday 8:39 PM (GMT 0)
hi CLAP
of course I understand your position but it is too premature. We only should know in some years from now if it will be a complete success. We are speaking here about an hyperplasia affecting an organ in the human body. A BPH diseased prostate grow every year, years after years. Nodshed one before GG intervention was growing at a yearly average of at least 5 more grams per year. Mine, before the ISM sclerodizing intervention was growing 8 more grams per year. My urologist just enucleated (open surgery) a 400 grams prostate in the case of a 84 years old man (catheterizing each day for urinating).
The cause of this hyperplasia should be following GG that the prostate cells get a wrong signal level of testosterone to reference their production of DHT. The result is that the glandular prostate cells divide to produce more DHT amongst other.
Now the GG procedure amongst other benefits normalise the signal level of testosterone perceived by the prostate. The cause of hyperplasia beeing supressed the hyperplasia reverse itself.. but at what speed?

The first proof that GG work would be that the prostate stop growing and even more start involuting.
So far it look to me as if the success rate is 100 per cent.

Now to give you some informations on the rate of involution: it is unknown because we are now living the experience of it. It depends of the age and health of the patient and the way he cares about his body.

One thing seem obvious to me is that it must be slow in order to not damage the other organs of the body (kidneys, liver lungs) in charge of eliminating the highly toxic content of a diseased prostate (Google TUMOR LYSIS SYNDROM) This mean our situation could be worse before going better and it could be a very long process for some of us.
Posted Yesterday 11:35 PM (GMT 0)
On Nov. 19, 2014 I wrote,

"Regarding my queries to doctors such as Turek, Bellman and Werthman, while I hope to receive responses, I expect to get none. Medical doctors are reticent about putting anything in writing."

I have heard nothing from these doctors.


Skateman
Posted Today 7:12 AM (GMT 0)
DUSAB. 'Now to give you some informations on the rate of involution: it is unknown because we are now living the experience of it. It depends of the age and health of the patient and the way he cares about his body. '

In other words, the procedure is experimental.

Which is why, if we are to believe reports, that the Israeli Health ministry forbade the good doctors from performing the procedure for financial compensation. And why the good doctors have moved to Cyprus.

Skateman. Thanks for the update. I have heard nothing from these doctors. A sad reflection on out times. I know a few medical doctors. (Relations). While money is important to them, and fame too, they don't come across as any more money grabbing than anybody else.
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