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Gat Goren, PAE, LUTS, Part 5

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Posted Today 7:25 AM (GMT 0)
Dusab,

I am not clear on your history - have you done GG? if so why don't you add your name to the list under "GG at least some improvement" ?
Posted Today 3:52 PM (GMT 0)
I just read "clap the hammers "latest contribution.

The two doctors live in Israel, dr Goren was born and raised in the USA and was driven by a long time wish to up stakes and move to Israel. He is a very religiously driven man and even though I am not, I was hugely impressed in my conversation with him in cyprus as to his deeply held and honourable beliefs.

Why on earth do you think that these doctors should take their procedure to the USA or to the UK.

The situation is Israel became very dangerous and they moved for overseas clients to Cyprus, a 45 minute plane trip for them.

I would hope that persons trying to make up their mind about having a Gat Goren procedure would not be deterred by your constant harping on the same themes.

Lets hear from anyone who has had a negative Gat Goren experience, we have heard about plenty of negative TURP experiences.

I am grateful to this forum because it where I found Gat Goren first, without this forum I might now be suffering the after effects of a TURP and from what I read, getting ready to repeat the TURP experience after 5 years would be a likely event.

We are here to give an account of our experiences, not to repeat the same old claptrap again and again
Posted Today 4:55 PM (GMT 0)
Liamireland - I would hope that persons trying to make up their mind about having a Gat Goren procedure would not be deterred by your constant harping on the same themes.

Or even better, post a link to peer reviewed results of the results of the Gat Goren procedure so that we can all view them and make an informed decision.

Liamireland - I would hope that persons trying to make up their mind about having a Gat Goren procedure would not be deterred by your constant harping on the same themes.

The situation in Israel is not dangerous. Even if it was, why wasn't the move made to a country like the UK or US?? In the US, there are a huge number of potential clients available??

The good doctors may very well be personable people. And they may well have had some some success with their procedure. But the bottom line is that there are no good statistics anywhere available on the Internet. It may even have been that having dealt successfully with infertility with some men, they noticed a reduction in prostate size and are now telling us that reducing the size of the prostate by denying free testosterone to the prostate is the ultimate solution.

But. None of this has been clinically vetted. It simply hasn't.

Why don't the good doctors come online and explain their move to Cyprus to potential clients who come across this thread??.
Posted Today 5:38 PM (GMT 0)
Clap, you are incorrigible and very adept at ignoring all logic. Some others may respond to you, I think it is a waste of space on a good forum to keep up this nonsense.
Posted Today 7:03 PM (GMT 0)
nosheds: I have not had the GG procedure as already stated. Instead I had my left and right ISM veins sclerodized (including by-passes and collaterals if any) by a Belgian interventional radiologist. If one read carrefully the GG patent and or the GG publication in the European urology review it appears GG proceeds that way.

Clap :Of course this an experimental procedure especially for myself living with a 200 grams catheterized heavily diseased prostate. My Urologist did laugh at me when I told him in mid-september 2014 that I had the procedure of by-lateral varicocele done and that I was expexcting my prostate to shrink somewhat in the next six months. I am confidently convinced he will be surprised at the end of this period of six months.

everyone:

I just started experimenting also with LOW DOSAGE NALTREXONE (very famous for treating autoimmune diseases) in order to improve my immune system and get rid of the inflammation linked to my chronic prostatitis. This drug developped in the USA should improve the Tumor lysing effects linked to the involution of the prostate.
Has anyone already tried it for prostatitis ?
Posted 12/2/2014 1:33 AM (GMT 0)
I wish to contribute my experience about the "GG" ("Gat Goren") since this forum helped me to decide to go and do it. I follow this thread for long time so perhaps it is my turn now to share my story so it might help others as well.

The bottom line: My experience with the GG was highly positive and I would recommend anyone who suffers from the horrible prostate symptoms – to do it. If you can afford it - Just do it.

Before the treatment my prostate size was 65-66 mlg. I used to wake up about 3 times at night, sometimes 4 times. But that was only part of the problem since I used to rush to the toilet on bad timings, including while I’m driving(!). I used to actually stop at the side of some dangerous roads since I couldn’t resist the urgency. A perfect nightmare.

After reading this thread (about a year ago) I discussed this method with my brother in law, who is a general practitioner and quite an honest guy that will not push you to do treatments just because it’s “the golden standard” or because “all the doctors recommend it”. He found three articles on the web (ClapTheHammer - I asked him again - and he said they are all Peer reviewed) and told me it looks like a valid and serious achievement of the 2 doctors
He found an editorial commentary on a peer reviewed medical journal published in Germany that wrote that it is a revolutionary. Here is the link to the article:
http://www.pirion.co.il/images/pdf/Editorial%20Commentary%20on%20BPH%20article%20%20ANDROLOGIA.pdf

I contacted their clinic and it took some time until I got a final answer if I'm a good candidate to do it. The communication was not the best at first. I felt that they have a long waiting list which they handle very slowly, but after I sent all the medical information as they asked me for - it went smoothly (there is a list of tests they ask you to do before they decide if you are capable to do it and they are very strict with it) .So then everything went without any trouble.

I came to the hospital, and with me, there were 2 or 3 more patients, (one of them was from some Arab country. If I understand correctly, big portion of their patients come from Arab countries and can’t enter Israel to be treated there. Perhaps that’s the reason why the treatment is taking place there). However, I was surprised that the treatment was very easy. There was no pain at all and it was over after 2 hours. I felt a little discomfort on the testicles few days after, but it was not really painful, and it disappeared right afterwards

At first I was worrying that there was no improvement in the first months. But I remembered that it is needed to wait at least 6 months. I felt a little improvement after the third month but it was not very clear since I kept waking up at nights. BUT - after the fifth month I started to feel the real improvement. It was slow improvement but very clear. This improvement is continuing until now. First – the urgency was reduced in extreme. I now able to resist urination on daytime even after long time driving, and there is no need to run like crazy to the public toilets every now and then, unexpectedly. This is an extreme relief, falks. The stream itself is much stronger and I wake up at night only 1 time, some night I don’t wake up at all! Let’s say that 3 out of 7 night – I don’t need to wake up for urination. Perhaps other people will be disappointed since they want to sleep deeply all 7 nights and don’t want to wake up at all. But hey, this is quite an improvement! I suppose there is a limit on how you can return to be a kid again….

After 6 months I was asked by the manager of the clinic (which is extremely nice and very helpful) to do some follow up tests and to answer a questionnaire which I did. The results are: the prostate shrank from 65 to 43. And it keeps improving all the time. I must emphasize that there were some days that I felt a mild regression and some symptoms were returning for a short time, but then again – I felt another improvement. This is actually described to me before the treatment by the doctors. So I understand that supposed to be like that in the first year.

So, yes, it was a lot of money but it was the best investment I could do. I need to do another follow up tests in 3 months, so I will update you all with the results. If anybody wants to comunicate with me directly - I will send him my email

Post Edited (Graham_A) : 12/1/2014 6:47:26 PM (GMT-7)

Posted 12/2/2014 2:14 AM (GMT 0)
Graham A:

Thanks for the post! I love hearing personal stories (good or bad). And I know there are a lot of guys out there who are looking for first-hand reports, too.

I agree with Liam and others who think that the board is most useful for reporting first-hand experiences. It's fascinating, even.

Thanks so much for breaking the vow of silence and paying it forward. I'm a private guy, too, but I thought I needed to share my story. The decision on how to handle BPH rightfully belongs to each guy who needs to live with the results. Different guys will choose different approaches, and that's perfectly okay. As the philosopher said, You pays yer money, and you takes yer chances. There are no guarantees, regardless which route you take.

I see you provided reasoned responses to Clap's perennial objections. You aren't the first--and you probably won't be the last--to undertake this Sisyphean task.

BTW, Graham, who did your pre- and post-op prostate size measurements?

Please keep us posted on your progress (or otherwise).

####

To all you GG patients: Did anyone do any Testosterone measurements? Am I the only one here to do those? (I already posted that my T and free T went up slightly, but they stabilized a whole lot. I had a big improvement in mood a few months after the procedure, *before* the other improvements came.)
Posted 12/2/2014 7:21 AM (GMT 0)
Dusab and Graham,

I took the liberty to enter your names under what I believe are the right categories. please change, correct or remove anything not to your liking.


GG, with at least some improvement and no side effects:

chicago Dave, LiamIreland, Golfosca, andyaction, nosheds, martin victor, Graham
mv knows Amichai - an Israeli with improvement
nosheds knows four Israelis with improvement (in addition to myself)

GG, no improvement:
thunder

other procedures (please add names) with improvement, no side effects

left and right ISM veins sclerodized by a Belgian IR, no side effects:
Dusab

other procedures (please add names) with improvement, but with side effects:

using herb therapy (please add names) with improvement, no side effects:
Posted 12/3/2014 3:39 PM (GMT 0)
Graham_A - First. Let me say that I sincerely hope that the Gat/Goren treatment gives you a real improvement in you situation. I can imagine the conflicts that you must have had before deciding.

Now. As to that link that you post, (http://www.pirion.co.il/images/pdf/Editorial%20Commentary%20on%20BPH%20article%20%20ANDROLOGIA.pdf) that is not peer reviewed material. There is no date and at the bottom, it says: W.-B. Schill Editor-in-Chief - Giessen, Germany

Editor-in-Chief of what exactly?

If you could give us links to the three peer reviewed articles that your brother in law found, I would be overjoyed.

The mystery here actually gets deeper and deeper. Arabs/Muslims can enter Israel freely for medical reasons, assuming that they are 'not known' to Israel intelligence services. Many tens of thousands of Arabs, and some Iranians, do so each year and it is a serious source of income for many Israeli medical specialists. Arab/Muslim clients for the Gat/Goren procedure cannot be the underlying reason for the exit of the good doctors from Israel to Cyprus.
Posted 12/3/2014 8:46 PM (GMT 0)
Graham A.

Loved reading about your experience and your wonderful improvement, would'nt mind having your brother as my GP, sounds like he is balanced and open minded.

Reading your account reminded me very forcefully again how it was for me before the Gat Goren procedure.

Happy days to you

Liam Ireland
Posted 12/4/2014 4:05 AM (GMT 0)

Chicago Dave said...
I see you provided reasoned responses to Clap's perennial objections. You aren't the first--and you probably won't be the last--to undertake this Sisyphean task.

I read ClapTheHammer's comments as requests for data. First-person testimonials are wonderful. The theory seems to make sense. However, the overall objective statistics (e.g., measured reduction in prostate size) are missing.
Posted 12/4/2014 4:08 AM (GMT 0)
Anyone have results, or not, using Cialis® for everyday use in connection with BPH symptoms?
Posted 12/4/2014 10:15 PM (GMT 0)

Skateman said...
Anyone have results, or not, using Cialis® for everyday use in connection with BPH symptoms?

I tried the daily cialis for 30 days (5mg. tablets). Cialis has coupons for a free 30 day trial on their website.
I have a prescription plan and medicare, but neither one will reimburse for cialis for any reason.

The results were not great. In my opinion it was considerably less effective for bph than a daily .4mg flomax (actually the generic tamsulosin). It is a little help for my ED (a couple on demand are a bit of help, maybe a bit of improvement, but not anything to rely on).

But the deal killer was when I tried to renew (for the ED only) and found out that Walgreens wanted $340 for a 30 day supply of 5mg pills, or $340 for 8 20mg tablets.

Another thing is that taking the daily cialis every day made me short tempered. I can guess maybe unsatisfied libido as no way is my wife going to please me 30 times a month! But for prior to sex, 10-20 mg are a little bit of help, but no magic bullet for me.

Bob
Posted 12/4/2014 11:55 PM (GMT 0)

ClapTheHammer said...
......The thought of curing my 'frequency' with little more than an inconvenience of a few hours in a hospital for a not to large sum of money, without any significant danger to my bodily functions and sexual performance, is a great lure.

Clap,
Do you have a problem with frequency? If so, is it all day long or mostly at night?
The reason I ask is to point out that bph is not the only cause of frequency, although it may co-exist with it.

I had a Greenlight laser that removed 70g. of a 120+g. prostate 2-1/2 years ago. It was followed up a year later with removal of a membrane that had grown over and was blocking my regrown prostatic urethra, and a year of bi-monthly then monthly self cathing to "keep the channel open". Then last year I had gross hematuria and emergency surgery to cauterize 3 bleeders on my prostate and bladder neck, removal of bladder stones, and a resection to widen the bladder neck.

The good news is my post void residual was recently measured at 7cc by sonogram, and my daytime frequency is quite normal. Nearly all of my voids range from 100cc to 300cc, day or night (except for purposely double voiding before bed).

The bad news is that for the past 2-1/2 months my night time frequency keeps me up all night about 7 or 8 times a month. It's actually worse in the last 2-1/2 months after a hard fall on my butt, than it ever has been. But my daytime frequency is better than it has been in a decade or more. Although my lifestyle, diet, exercise, and fluid intake varies little day to day, my night time voiding is all over the place. Last night I got up just 4 times and voided 300cc total. The night before I voided every 20 minutes or less until 5:30 in the morning passing over 1.5 liters in about a dozen voids. Then from 5:30 to 10:30 I was able to sleep as I only got up another 3 times and voided another 1/2 liter.

I've learned that nocturnal polyuria is defined as voiding more than 1/3 of your total 24 hr. volume at night. On my bad nights I easily void more than 2/3 my 24 hr. volume.

In my case, since I use a bedside urinal, I can measure my output, and also can get back to sleep if I go less often than once an hour. So my good nights may be 3 to 5 voids, and virtually no loss of sleep. But if I go more than once an hour (usually something like every 20 minutes) for most or all of the night, I can't get any sleep. On those nights my output is generally 1.5 liters to 2.75 liters. On good nights it is just 250cc to 1.5 liters.

So for people who mainly suffer from nocturia, or more precisely nocturnal polyuria, then the whole issue of an enlarged prostate may just be a small part of that particular problem, or not any part of it at all. But the medical cookbook is to attack an enlarged prostate first, then see if anything else needs to be done. So far, I've not found any solutions, and my urologist hasn't either. Looking at nocturnal polyuria, the latest findings published by the NIH indicate the treatment of choice is desmopressin, just before bed, which increases the pituitary output of ADH (anti-diuretic hormone) which reduces the production of urine at night and concentrates it. Apparently it is normal for this hormone to activate at night. Last night, mine apparently did because I only voided 300cc of dark orange concentrated urine, instead of a couple of liters of pale yellow urine, like I did the night before. I'm researching desmopressin now. It may be something I may ask my urologist to prescribe for me in the future.
Bob
Posted 12/5/2014 12:05 AM (GMT 0)

Bob_NJ said...
I tried the daily cialis for 30 days (5mg. tablets). Cialis has coupons for a free 30 day trial on their website.
I have a prescription plan and medicare, but neither one will reimburse for cialis for any reason.

The results were not great. In my opinion it was considerably less effective for bph than a daily .4mg flomax (actually the generic tamsulosin). It is a little help for my ED (a couple on demand are a bit of help, maybe a bit of improvement, but not anything to rely on).

Thanks, Bob.

Skateman
Posted 12/5/2014 3:01 AM (GMT 0)
Bob,

Thanks for the updated story. My God but you've been through a lot. I thought Cialis was supposed to be a good BPH-treatment. Silly me.

###

Ira (Skateman),

You might think I'm being too hard on our friend Clap, but I don't think so. I just don't understand him. He keeps on reposting the same comments again and again, yet ignoring our responses.

Why did he ask the name of journal editorial he cited? It's in the bottom right of that PDF file (Andrologia). It's even part of the URL he copied into his post. I don't get it.

Why can't he find the papers? They're on the clinic's web site (look under "Scientific Papers" under each of the three conditions). A few people here have posted links to these already. Why can't he find them? It beats me. He keeps on posting the exact same comments over and over, so I don't know where the hang-up is.

Why does he persist in saying there are no peer-reviewed papers? We've been shouting at him that all these papers are. (Okay, the editorial comment paper is *not* a peer-reviewed paper by Gat or Goren. It's a comment by the editor of Andrologia. That's even better than a peer-reviewed paper, which is why the clinic is so proud of it.)

Why does he obsess over the Crete connection? What is the relevance? I don't get it. So Dr. Gat goes abroad to do his procedure for some patients, but keeps his clinic going in Tel Aviv. So what?

There's a urologist near Greensboro, NC, who does something similar. He's a conventional guy, but I like him because he let me do a non-cost phone consult back in 2010. He offers HIFU to patients who want to treat their prostate with high-frequency sound waves. There's a theoretical reason why this is preferable to laser or TURP, but I don't remember the details now. He can't do the procedure in the US, so he takes his patients to some tropical carribbean island and does it there. Legal considerations. No one bats an eyelid, and he's still in good standing with his professional board.

By the way, this is yet another alternative for treating BPH, though it is generally limited for treating prostate cancer because of the $40K price tag.

###

Hey you lurkers!

It's time to "pay it forward" with your experiences with PAE/GG/devices/etc. Step forward and help "the cause"!
Posted 12/5/2014 4:21 AM (GMT 0)
1.

Chicago Dave said...
Hey you lurkers!
It's time to "pay it forward" with your experiences with PAE/GG/devices/etc. Step forward and help "the cause"!


Yes!!! If you've had the GG procedure, please let us know your results. We need solutions to BPH.

2. The editorial comment (seen at http://www.pirion.co.il/images/pdf/Editorial%20Commentary%20on%20BPH%20article%20%20ANDROLOGIA.pdf) references the other article (seen at http://www.pirion.co.il/images/pdf/Reversal%20of%20benign%20prostate%20-%20ANDROLOGIA.pdf) that includes the oft-mentioned GG "study" of "the treatment of 28 patients with BPH." What is very interesting about that editorial comment is this:

editors W.-B. Schill and I. Ben-Shlomo (emphasis added) said...
The study by Gat et al. has several potentially powerful medical ramifications. Firstly, as in the discovery of the bacterial aetiology of peptic ulcer (Helicobacter), it could relegate a number of sophisticated surgical techniques to historical anecdotes. The savings in hospitalisations, the surgical as well as indirect costs would be enormous. Secondly, if varicocele predisposes to later age prostatic pathology, the best strategy would be to establish criteria for preventive treatment by interventional radiology. Thirdly, restored circulating testosterone levels in ageing men by their treatment could ‘naturally’ revive sexual function.
It will be exciting to observe corroboration of this study’s findings and their future effect on medical practice.

3. My understanding of what ClapTheHammer seeks is the same thing that the Andrologia editors wanted.

4. I think that there may be many good faith business reasons for GG to have shifted operations to Cyprus. On the other hand, the move may have been the result of some sort of limitations imposed in Israel, much like HIFU's being unavailable in the USA even though it just might be a very effective treatment.
Posted 12/5/2014 10:10 AM (GMT 0)
BOB-NJ. 'Do you have a problem with frequency? If so, is it all day long or mostly at night?
The reason I ask is to point out that bph is not the only cause of frequency, although it may co-exist with it. '

Thanks for your concern.

I drink about 2 5 liters of liquid a day. Mainly very dilute (milk) tea with mint and other herbs. I drink because I like it not from any medical directives. Even 6 or 7 liters during the hot summers. During the day time I pee reasonably normally passing about 200 - 250 ccs. The problems start at night about 1/2 hr after laying down.

At night, I can wake up two to four times and pass about 100 - 150 ccs each time. Sometimes much more. During one night, I could pass over 1 liter of urine. I know because I use a plastic 1 1/2 liter bottle.

Small residual amount when testing using ultrasound.

There are nights where I don't have any problem at all once I have got to sleep although when I wake up in the morning, I have to pee double quick.

Sometimes during the day, when I have to pee. I HAVE TO PEE.

But. At nearly 70 years old, I shouldn't complain.

I use one tablet per day of Alfuzosin ER 10 mg. Makes peeing easier and .... more satisfying.

I first heard of Gat/Goren on Israeli radio about 4 years ago and I decided to investigate. That's how I came across this site. Nothing on Israeli radio since then that I have heard.

Taking a step back, there are too many unknowns about Gat/Goren's procedure. By all reasonable logic, if it is 85% successful as some have written here, then the good doctors should have been proposed for the Nobel prize in medicine bearing in mind that at least some of the people concerned with decision making in Norway, would be in need or have had some corrective surgery to reduce the size of the prostate.

And despite various clouds of dust thrown up by some of the commenters here, we have not had any verifiable information as to the reason why the good doctors transferred their operations to Cyprus. What I read on the internet on a Hebrew language site was that the Israeli Health Ministry banned the good doctors from performing the procedure in Israel on the grounds that it is experimental and should not be something that the patient needs to pay for.

Having once again said all that, I wish anyone deciding to undergo the procedure, a resounding success.

However, peer verified statistics are simply not available.
Posted 12/5/2014 4:42 PM (GMT 0)

ClapTheHammer said...
BOB-NJ. 'Do you have a problem with frequency? If so, is it all day long or mostly at night?
The reason I ask is to point out that bph is not the only cause of frequency, although it may co-exist with it. '

Thanks for your concern.

I drink about 2 5 liters of liquid a day. Mainly very dilute (milk) tea with mint and other herbs. I drink because I like it not from any medical directives. Even 6 or 7 liters during the hot summers. During the day time I pee reasonably normally passing about 200 - 250 ccs. The problems start at night about 1/2 hr after laying down.

At night, I can wake up two to four times and pass about 100 - 150 ccs each time. Sometimes much more. During one night, I could pass over 1 liter of urine. I know because I use a plastic 1 1/2 liter bottle.

Small residual amount when testing using ultrasound.

There are nights where I don't have any problem at all once I have got to sleep although when I wake up in the morning, I have to pee double quick.

Sometimes during the day, when I have to pee. I HAVE TO PEE.

But. At nearly 70 years old, I shouldn't complain.

I use one tablet per day of Alfuzosin ER 10 mg. Makes peeing easier and .... more satisfying.

I first heard of Gat/Goren on Israeli radio about 4 years ago and I decided to investigate. That's how I came across this site. Nothing on Israeli radio since then that I have heard.

Taking a step back, there are too many unknowns about Gat/Goren's procedure. By all reasonable logic, if it is 85% successful as some have written here, then the good doctors should have been proposed for the Nobel prize in medicine bearing in mind that at least some of the people concerned with decision making in Norway, would be in need or have had some corrective surgery to reduce the size of the prostate.

And despite various clouds of dust thrown up by some of the commenters here, we have not had any verifiable information as to the reason why the good doctors transferred their operations to Cyprus. What I read on the internet on a Hebrew language site was that the Israeli Health Ministry banned the good doctors from performing the procedure in Israel on the grounds that it is experimental and should not be something that the patient needs to pay for.

Having once again said all that, I wish anyone deciding to undergo the procedure, a resounding success.

However, peer verified statistics are simply not available.

Clap,
Thanks for the reply. It seems our present conditions are very much the same except for those nights when I flare up and go every 20 minutes or so for an extended number of hours. Although I'm not taking any meds or supplements at present, every now and then I take a flomax (tamsulosin) for a couple of nights if it seems like my stream is weaker than usual. I figure this may flush out any possible returning bladder stones. Other than my flares, the rest of the time it seems our conditions are relatively minor in the scheme of things. A bit inconvenient, but no more so than many other inconveniences at our age, and probably a lot better than many men in their late 60's.
Regards,
Bob
Posted 12/5/2014 11:00 PM (GMT 0)

ClapTheHammer said...
However, peer verified statistics are simply not available.

I see. This looks like an issue with terminology. If Clap means that Gat's study has not been corroborated independently, then he is absolutely right. To date, all the data is from the clinic itself.

Considering the issues and expense involved in conducting clinical trials on humans, this isn't surprising. It might be sad; it might be unfortunate; it might be tragic even. But surprising, it is not.

Maybe some day there will be a multi-center clinical trial of BPH treatments with active comparison groups (TURP, laser, GG, PAE, etc.) with deep-pockets $$$ funding. That would be nice. But I just don't see it happening in my lifetime.
Posted 12/5/2014 11:59 PM (GMT 0)

Chicago Dave said...
Maybe some day there will be a multi-center clinical trial of BPH treatments with active comparison groups (TURP, laser, GG, PAE, etc.) with deep-pockets $$$ funding.

That would be terrific--and hopefully I could sign up for the treatment of my choice. scool

However, GG have, or should have, their own data. Forums like this should not have to poll its participants to find out their results. For the big bucks that GG get for the procedure (and I do not begrudge them the fees they get at all), GG should be getting follow-up data with at least the following objective measurements:

1. Testosterone levels before a GG procedure, six months after, one year after, two years after, and three years after. Increases in levels, or even steady levels, of testosterone would be encouraging.
2. Prostate size before a GG procedure, six months after, one year after, two years after, and three years after. Decreased size would be encouraging. Even just a prostate's not increasing might be encouraging.
3. Urination frequency and flow rate before a GG procedure, six months after, one year after, two years after, and three years after. Even this could be objectively measured, with frequency decreasing and flow rate increasing being encouraging.

This data could show whether wonderful results are the norm, or are outliers.

Keeping in mind that I actually like the GG theory, GG's not having the data available hurts, in my opinion, GG's credibility. nono

[Edited to correct spelling.]

Post Edited (Skateman) : 12/5/2014 5:18:00 PM (GMT-7)

Posted 12/6/2014 1:59 AM (GMT 0)
Dear Chicago Dave - Thank you for your kind words. I didn't think I would ever share this with anyone. I’m even not the kind of a guy who writes in forums or blogs, but then again I didn't think I will ever suffer from these symptoms:))

If I owe something is to this forum that helped with the decision about the Gat Goren treatment
Even before I should thank the doctors - I should thank this forum and you all for sharing your stories

The pre and post measurement was done in my local hospital. It was taken via ultra sound. They measured it few times just to be sure before and after. In fact, every measurement (there where 3 every time, made few minutes one after the other) was a slight different from the other (I understood it’s like this) – so they took the average. Some measurements showed that the prostate shrank even more.

Dear nosheds – yes this is the correct category. I think that what you do is very useful.

Dear ClapTheHammer - I didn't write my story just to have a blog-fight with you:) I wish to believe that you are genuinely want to know more, but to be honest, since I read all your comments it seems to me that you are not seeking for a cure (like we all do here) but just have a passion to comment badly on one specific treatment that you never have gone through. Please don’t get me wrong. Everybody has his own opinion and you are not forced to believe in anything. But if you don’t believe this thing works, why don’t you just continue to find a different treatment instead of repeatedly bad mouthing this specific one? You should understand that it looks a bit odd and make someone think of your motivation and your interests. And frankly, the fact that you search things in Hebrew via google make this suspicious even stronger - why on earth would an Israeli guy like you search for comments about Israeli treatment in English forum (!?) and why would you spread this negative questions when you can easily go to their clinic in Tel Aviv and just ask them yourself? or if you are not Israeli (but still know Hebrew) call them over the phone? If you are really seeking for help, write me your phone number and I will connect you to my GP that read all the data and statistics and told me to do this. I will be also ready to make a phone conference with you and Dr Gat (I suppose he will agree, he is very nice man, apart from his skills) and you can find out all the information you want. Then we can both write here our impressions from the conversation. Are you in the game? My email is published in my pfrofile and I will share my phone number as well if you wish too. I have nothing against you personally and If my things hurts you or my suspicious is in vain – I do apologize. But I think that if a one demand things to be clear and open, he should be clear and open as well. And at list should show that he doesn’t have hidden interests.
And for you question about their research and statistics – it’s all over the web. They have a page for it: http://www.pirion.co.il/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=21&Itemid=23&lang=en
Again – funny that you didn’t see it until now. Just saying:)

Dear Liam, thank you for you kind words as well. Have you been suffering from urgency as well? Where you afraid like me driving for long time? Ho boy, that was a bloody nightmare. When I tried to tell people about the prostate problems they thought it only a matter of “wellbeing”. That really frustrated me. For me it was a real matter of life and death.

Please forgive me for writing too long and not too often. Will try to reverse the two:)

Graham

Post Edited (Graham_A) : 12/7/2014 11:46:28 AM (GMT-7)

Posted 12/6/2014 2:32 AM (GMT 0)
Dave,
In my opinion this could be done easily in the present context. All the pieces are there. This information is already there in the computers that scrutinize, bill and reimburse every doctor's visit, medication and procedure. It's just not available to the public. I think I can guess why.
Nearly all procedures in the US are covered by private insurance and/or government insurance. These insurance entities could create a database available to the public that would anonymously present summaries of all patient conditions, treatments and outcomes for every illness and treatment and hospital and doctor. A summary of just a fraction of a single year's treatments for every patient would give a stastically valid snapshot of every treatment plan for every possible patient profile (age, sex, pre-existing conditions), treatment, etc., given by every docotor and every hospital in the country.
And easily added is the patient satisfaction rating which could also be required as a condition of coverage, which could be reported by the patient quarterly for the first year and annually for the next 5 years, along with the initial doctor summaries of the outcome of the patient's treatment. The surveys could be taken by phone or email the way customer satisfaction surveys are solicited by Sears or the Cable Company after a service call.
Consider if every physician had 500 patient reviews, and if every procedure and medication had 5,000 or 50,000 patient reviews, and if the true outcomes of each treatment by each physician and for each hospital were recorded over time.
I don't buy a thing without first checking the customer reviews on Amazon. I only buy from ebay sellers with good customer feedback. With such a public database, very few people would eventually take a medication or go to a doctor or choose a procedure without doing the same. I could imagine a big change in the way people would consume medical treatments and medications.
In my opinion, medecine today lives on it's mythology, and exists primarily as a business. The mythology is that doctors know what they are doing all of the time, and have the patient's best interests at heart, and only advise patients with the best treatment and medication choices. That procedures are nearly all successful. And if something goes wrong, it's an isolated case. A database of tens of thousands of true outcomes would explode that myth. And maybe that's why we don't have one.

I can't be the first person in the world to have thought this was a good idea. But I've never heard anyone else, much less anyone in the medical profession, popose it.

Bob

Chicago Dave said...

ClapTheHammer said...
However, peer verified statistics are simply not available.

I see. This looks like an issue with terminology. If Clap means that Gat's study has not been corroborated independently, then he is absolutely right. To date, all the data is from the clinic itself.

Considering the issues and expense involved in conducting clinical trials on humans, this isn't surprising. It might be sad; it might be unfortunate; it might be tragic even. But surprising, it is not.

Maybe some day there will be a multi-center clinical trial of BPH treatments with active comparison groups (TURP, laser, GG, PAE, etc.) with deep-pockets $$$ funding. That would be nice. But I just don't see it happening in my lifetime.

Post Edited (Bob_NJ) : 12/5/2014 7:37:58 PM (GMT-7)

Posted 12/6/2014 4:18 PM (GMT 0)
To Graham A. Just read your post, very well put, the dedication of clap to dissing the Gat Goren procedure is troubling indeed and I think you have expressed your concerns very well.

In relation to myself I am just coming up to my 3 months anniversary of the procedure, all my noticeable results appeared after the first month and I have not noticed any change since. Like you, the problem was blighting my life and urgency and accidents were beginning to be too regular, I was suffering repeated urinary tract infections and was hospitalised 3 times. The infections were becoming more and more difficult to treat and the antibiotic options were practically exhausted, so as I said in a previous report, if I had not found Gat Goren on this forum I would have been TURPED by now and life would not be pleasant.

If I have no further improvement I will still be very happy, I hope I will have no more trouble with urinary tract infections, if I do I will post the reality.

I paid €1100 to have the tests done that Gat Goren required, I will go back at the 6 month stage to get my prostate measured and I will submit the result. To be honest I would not bother doing this except to repay the forum for the gift of finding Gat Guren, I could not care less what my prostate measures, I am just happy to be in the condition I now am.

I still double void in the mornings, I hope that will disappear but if not, so what. Urgency and accidents are a thing of the past, I had 2 full nights sleep in succession back some time ago, that has not happened since. I get up once a night now and as it happens last night I slept for 8 hours.

I intend to do anything I can do to broadcast the success of this procedure and try to get this accepted as a mainstream treatment so that it can be accessed by people who cannot pay the €17,000 that I luckily was available to afford.

In hindsight if I did not have the money, I would forego a lot of things in my life to achieve this result.

If people have the money I would urge them to have this treatment and if not then do your utmost to get this accepted as mainstream so that all can avoid the barbaric Turps.
Posted 12/6/2014 4:46 PM (GMT 0)
Bob and Skateman: I think you both dramatically understate the difficulty of obtaining follow-up test results for patients. Liam has generously offered to undertake his own prostate measurement at six months, so that will be another data point in our efforts here.

I was going to post a long reply, but then got fascinated by Graham's post. In deference to his new initiative, I'm going to be quiet and give this time to play out. I hope certain people take Graham up on his offer, and that Liam and others continue to fill in the details of their experiences, which I find most interesting.
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