Gat Goren, PAE, LUTS, Part 6

andyaction. Incidentally what I didn't mention was that prior to the gg, erections were usually the result of stimulation, now I wake up almost every single night with boners that won't go down and that keep me awake and often boners in the morning. (wife's happy)....

That sounds just wonderful Andy. Wonderful. It would be nice to see GG adding your comment on their site where they respond to peoples questions about the viability and percentage success and failure of their expensive procedure. Along with some explanation of their move from Ramat Gan near Tel Aviv to Cyprus.

DUSAB.
Just saw your comments a little earlier which looked interesting. I had both R. & L. ISV's embolized. I was able to see the result on the monitor; it was a v. successful procedure. No collaterals or by passes were treated but I was not aware there were any. Would you think this would/will make any difference initially if there were some that were missed? The radiologist said he could see no sign of variococele at all. It is not 3 wks since I had the op. so early days. There would seem to be a lot of defensive comment concerning GG when people such as MGL59 give honest views that they are slightly sceptical. Maybe they should be listened to more closely & understood.

=========== GG Update: Three Years and Nine Months ===========

Time for another periodic update on my progress (or lack thereof, as Clap would whisper under his breath).

GG procedure: May 30, 2011
1-Year post-GG: Prostate shrunk, but symptoms remained
2-Years post-GG: Most symptoms much relieved. Discontinued Rx drug!

I had posted that I was experiencing an aggravation of symptoms last October (3.3 years post-GG). Suddenly, urinary frequency and urgency returned like they had been a couple years earlier. Not pleasant! And disconcerting, because I wondered if this was permanent. I took some herbals to help me cope: Martin's Stinging Nettle Root actually helped. After three or four weeks--it seemed much longer!--the bad times ended and things returned to where they had been before. Whew! That was a close one.

Regarding urinary symptoms: I'm downgrading my improvement in urinary symptoms from 84 (as I posted last Fall) to 80 (where it was a year or so ago). This reflects the fact that I'm still somewhat sensitive to what I eat (water-soluble vitamins tend to slightly aggravate the urge to pee). It also reflects the simple fact that it's hard to make fine distinctions at this point in my progress. On the whole, though, I'm still satisfied with my urinary symptoms, though they could still improve. Good days are pretty good, and most days are good days; there haven't been any really "bad" days since October. One day last month I went nine hours between appointments with the john; it was a day I had almost nothing to drink. Long-distance air travel gave me only minimal problems, whereas it used to be a source of continuous anxiety for me, not knowing when I'd need the washroom. So things are pretty good in that department.

I noticed something interesting following the Great October Aggravation: A minor but noticeable improvement in some sexual symptoms. I will spare the reader the boring details about this matter, which I consider personal. The improvement, though modest, seems to be permanent. I've noticed no wavering about it for almost four months. So this is a good and unexpected thing. Interestingly, this improvement is *not* related to my testosterone levels, which continue to be rock-solid steady but very low.

The lessons I draw from this episode are:
(1) My improvement has continued, albeit at a slower rate, almost three-years-plus after the procedure; and
(2) The October Aggravation was merely the latest in a long series of aggravations that preceded permanent improvement in symptoms.

I will post again in June (four years post-GG) or when there's a sudden change in symptoms, positive or negative.

Here's the running success/failure list based on Nosheds' earlier post. I added MGL59 and Zoesman. I think it's a little early to declare MGL59's procedure a failure, but I added it anyway; we can always adjust if he changes his mind.

Let me know of omissions and corrections.

######

GG, with at least some improvement and no side effects:
Chicago Dave
LiamIreland
Golfosca
AndyAction
Nosheds
Martin Victor (some improvement but not satisfactory)
Graham
EddieG
Carl1950 (Improved nighttime frequency after 12 months. On page 7.)

GG, neither improvement nor side effects:
Thunder
MGL59

Second-hand reports of GG:
Martin Victor knows Amichai - an Israeli with improvement
Nosheds knows four other Israelis with improvement

PAE
rphguy: Successful (after bladder diverticulum removed)
Gavrikon: "nightly excursions to the bathroom have been halved"
(https://www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=35&m=3270919&p=8)
[I remember seeing reports from two or three other PAErs on this board, all but one was positive. If someone can locate their details, I'd be glad to post their results, too.]

Other procedures (please add names):

Left and right ISM veins sclerotized by a Belgian IR:
Dusab: Improvement, no side effects.

Other:
Zoesman: Improvement from ISM sclerotization short-lived--got improvement in symptoms from PAE.

#####

Edited 4/27/2015: Added Gavricon's update.
Edited 4/10/2015: Added Carl1950 to the list.
Edited 3/13/2015: Added EddieG to the list.

Post Edited (Chicago Dave) : 4/27/2015 9:10:15 PM (GMT-6)

Hey Dave,
You can add me to the list of: PAE with success.
I also had to have a bladder diverticulum removed before the success was significant.

I think it wise to avoid the biopsy. once again bread and butter for mr uro, but not the best for us.a better choice if worried about pca is the 3t mr study with rectal coil, which is arguably more valuable than the needle biopsy and a whole lot less dangerous.
my situation continues to improve thank goodness. now 7 months post pae. my mr study at month six did not show shrinkage, but a recent study showed there is no correlation between shrinkage and symptomatic improvement. this could mean that infarction and cell death is less important than biochemical changes resulting from decreased perfussion of the central gland. I am now on a tiny amount of medication and may be able to dispense with it before long,I hope. will let you know.

BPHOrC...I would advise against a biopsy: I would recommend a 3.0 Tesla MRI scan. But even before this, I would suggest staying 3 weeks at the Hippocrates Health Center in West Palm Beach Florida for a nutrition program that would bring down the PSA. Their program of raw foods, mostly sprouts and sprouted juices like wheatgrass, sunflower, pea sprouts, meditation etc is not easy...but it works. Many Hollywood actors go there. I know 4 people who had various forms of cancer, including stage 4 who have had a complete recovery with no re-occurance as a result of their visit. Also, based upon the Gat patent...PSA is barely effected after the procedure..very very slightly beneficial results on around 28 ? patients.

This from Ben L. Pfeifer, M.D, PHD formerly head of the renowned Aeskulap Clinic in Switzerland:

"I want to leave a message for you to take home. It is more for the lay man than doctors who won't often listen to the message I have spent ten years trying to get through and I call this rocking the boat: We know that any bioscopy or any surgery or prostate brachytherapy where you put radioactive seeds into the prostate to carry out radiotherapy – any or those therapeutic or diagnostic measures involving mechanical intrusion with a sharp needle in to the tumour – we know this will cause iatrogenic (caused by doctor's measures) shedding of cancer cells into blood stream which may – I must stress may – lead to early metastases. These diagnostic biopsies are a dangerous tool. The person has to be fit for it, the immune system needs to be strong to cope with the cancer cells- this is the same with breast biopsy.

10 years ago when I first talked about this in Germany at a conference attended by 2000 urologists, I was invited without their knowing I would bring this up. I was booed at which wasn't a very pleasant situation. At time we didn't have any proof it was just a hypothesis. Now in 1996 a method came out called Reverse transcriptase polymerase chain reaction test – a molecular test capable of finding one prostate cancer cell among 10,000,000 blood cells. This is a very highly sensitive test used to quantify how many prostate cancer cells would be found in a man's peripheral blood after a biopsy. There is method for doing this which will find from 0 -14,000 cells in 1 millilitre.

In patients with BPH (enlarged prostate) we don't find cancer cells 4 weeks after the biopsy.

Slide 40

Here you see after 2 weeks of biopsy a patient in which the needle identified cancer: in 1 millilitre of blood there are now 12,000 copies of tumour cells. That means in 5 litres- 5,000 x 12,000 that is 60 million. No urologists would like to have that injected.

Slide 41

A patient needs to be prepared for biopsy. Phytotherapy with a bioscopy reduces chances of early metastasis as it reduces those cells.

Slide 42

We ask patients to take 3 x 3 capsules a day of ProstaSol, 3x 1 capsule per day of Curcumin Complex, 2 x 1g of BioBran and 2 x 2 capsules of Imupros until 4 weeks after bioscopy and then cells come down fast.

Slide 43

My last message is that too much physician is not good for you!!!

Slide 44

Look what happens when doctors went on strike- these are real facts. In 1973 physicians in Israel go on strike for 1 month and number of funerals reduces by 50%. That was not a singular event: Physicians in Columbia in 1976 go on strike there is a reduction of burials of 38%. Even in the UK, a strike in 1978 meant numbers went down by 40%.

Slide 45

I ask myself maybe physicians should go on a permanent strike for the interest of our patients!!


This lecture is also available in streaming media format at: www.clearfeed.com/pfeifer/index.html

Copyright © Ben Pfeifer 2006

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Dr. PfeiferProfessor Pfeifer heads an international medical consultancy team of oncologists and immunologists out of Switzerland united under the name of "Aeskulap-International". To book a medical consultation, contact Professor Pfeifer's office directly by email: [email protected] or phone: +41418290436 or +41796300178. For those in Germany, Austria and Switzerland, there is also a toll-free number 0800-9090450 for making appointments.
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>>> I believe the 3.0 Tesla MRI scan is restricted to people who have undergone a biopsy, even if it was negative, and have other indications of prostate cancer. <<<

I don't think so. A urologist should be able to prescribe it for you. The scan will show whether you have lesions. I would research the contrast dye used and take a supplement that helps remove heavy metals after the scan. Poking an inflamed prostate with a dozen or more needles seems absurd. One must ask: Which is bigger the cancer cell or the needle when the prostate is perforated?

MGL59, Thanks for taking the time to post your results. I hope you will continue to post as time goes on so we will know if there was any improvement for you or not. I think other posters have related a similar experience to yours at a similar point in time. I hope that you experience improvement as time goes on.

It sounds like you are in a similar condition or slightly better than I was almost 3 years ago before my Greenlight laser. I had a 120g+ prostate with a median lobe protruding into the bladder, and 70g. was removed by the laser. I got about 6 months of good results after two months of painful recuperation. Then I needed to start cathing twice a month to keep the channel open after a removal of scar tissue. Then last year I needed surgery to cauterize hematurias and resection my bladder neck and remove bladder stones. After 9 months of good results (getting up 0 to 3 or 4 times a night) my frequency sky rocketed to anywhere from 0 to 15 times a night, with 2-1/2 to 3-1/2 liters of urine in 6 or 7 hours at night keeping me up all night about twice a week for the past 6 months. I don't have any blockage, my PVR (post void residual) was just 7cc on my last sonogram. My GP and urologist said they can't find any reason for it. My nephrologist is conducting tests, but hasn't found anything yet. I have an appointment with a cardiologist and will try an endocrinologist if nothing is found. All I can say is that I have to be prepared to live with this and not know why. The various theories about LUTS is that it is caused by bladder or bph issues, and if you address them, everything is fine. For many people, thankfully this is true. But as Einstein was supposed to have said, "In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not." The whole issue of LUTS (for men and women) is not always as simple as it has been made out to be.
Bob

MGL59 said...
Just wanted to stick my 2 cents in re GG:

I am 55, have 118 gram prostate and have been on 4-6 mg of Cardura, and Uroxotral before that, for several years. My BPH is manageable, but not great. I have to go every hour or two although I can hold it in if I have to, like on the golf course or at a movie.

If I don't void for a while, it is sometimes difficult to go at all until I walk around for 15 or 20 minutes.

I can sometimes sleep through the night, but usually go 1-3 times per night.

I had the GG procedure 3 months ago in Cyprus. A radiologist from Israel (originally from South Africa) did the procedure and Dr. Gat supervised (I guess) in the operating room. It took about 2 hours if I recall correctly and was not uncomfortable at all.

I was supposed to take it easy for a few days after that, which I did, but there was no discomfort other than a little dull ache in the region where they inserted the catheters into the veins.

For a few weeks to a month after the procedure I had occasional mild pain in the testicles, which Dr. Gat said was normal in some patients.

Dr. Gat and the radiologist were very nice and the hospital in Cyprus was clean and modern. The city (the capital Nicosia) where the procedure took place was typically eastern Mediterranean/Middle Eastern - not a high standard of living, not very pretty, but it seemed safe. If you want to combine the procedure with a vacation, I suggest going during their high season, and going to the north or south coast. There are some very nice hotels and casinos on the north coast (there is Vegas style casino gambling in Northern Cyprus, but not Southern).

That is the good news. Now the bad news. The procedure did not help me at all. So far at least, although they claim that there should be lots of improvement after 3 months. I am not holding my breath. To be honest, although Dr. Gat was very nice, he seemed to be a little bit of a quack when talking to him about this procedure and some other things. I am not a doctor, so take that impression with a grain of salt.

Now, just because it has not worked for me, so far at least, does not mean that it is not a valid procedure. However, my impression is that it is not. I was also surprised that Dr. Gat is not a urologist. I just assumed that he was. He apparently "discovered" this procedure while working with men who were having fertility problems. There was another, older man, from Israel who was there having the GG procedure, but for prostate cancer. I am VERY skeptical of using GG to treat PC, but I know nothing of that.

Post Edited (Bob_NJ) : 3/10/2015 11:02:40 AM (GMT-6)

Bob_NJ,
Thanks for your thorough post. I did take two PSA tests, the second after an antibiotics course too, and the results were close. I have also taken the cautious approach of tracking how fast the score rises. It is only the jump of almost 100% to the current 10.5 that has caused me to consider the biopsy. I will probably do it, especially after reading some adverse evidence on the Goren-Gat procedure, which I thought to take for the BPH, and then wait and see if the smaller gland resulted in lower PSA, thus contradicting PC as the cause. It is worrisome that no medical teams have seen fit to try out the GG procedure in an independent clinical test. I might do the MRI scan instead, if I can find a 3.0 Tesla machine place that does it.
I do have another question though. I am wondering how fast the BPH (currently 50 cc in my case) gets out of hand (assuming it is only BPH). I have no urination problems as yet. I drink a lot of liquids for health reasons and can still take a couple of hours before emptying. I only rise about once in the night and there is a reasonable stream before it slows to a dribble. But I have no doubt this won't last. What interests me is the time frame. How quickly will it be 3 times a night and almost no stream?! For example, how long did it take in your case?

Post Edited (BPHOrC) : 3/10/2015 4:21:57 PM (GMT-6)

Bob: Thanks for your detailed updates and thoughtful posts. They are always thought-provoking.

###

BPHorC: Now I'll toss in my two cents. I always thought the plan you alluded to made a lot of sense: Have the G-G procedure and wait-and-see (if you could afford it). I think it would be the most "conservative" approach--provided that there's not something real serious going on. I'm just a patient, not a doctor, so I wouldn't know.

I assume you've solicited second opinions from local specialists as well as Dr. Gat. I remember reading that the GG procedure has been used to treat early-stage PC, which sort of makes intuitive sense to me.

There was a discussion on this forum about the effect of GG on PSA levels about six months ago, but I can't find it now. If I remember correctly, I posted that GG did *not* have an effect on PSA levels, only to have someone correct me and claim that it *did* lower then in some cases if they were elevated. But maybe the exchange was the other way around. My own GG procedure had no effect on PSA levels; but they were low and stable to begin with, so I was neither expecting nor hoping for any such change.

Best wishes to you, bro, whatever you decide.

BPHOrC...I don't know why you would consider a biopsy when an MRI is available. Poking a dozen or more holes into an inflamed prostate indicated by high PSA doesn't make sense. Why risk infection. Here might be an alternative for you to investigate.

"If a high PSA raises a concern, the next step is to obtain an accurate, detailed image of what’s going on in the prostate. Our 3T Multi-Parametric MRI – BlueLaser™ provides a way for experts to gain the best available imaging. If 3T Multi-Parametric MRI – BlueLaser™ rules out cancer, it gives peace of mind and avoids spending needless time on additional testing (e.g. biopsy)>"

http://sperlingprostatecenter.com/prostate-cancer-detection/