Building muscle with no T while on Lupron

Gunner:

Here's a book i use: Total Shape, by Joyce Vedral. (It's dated, but all good) Talks about isolating each muscle and training it to exhaustion as the way to build muscle.

I've also heard great things about Starting Strength by Mark Rippetoe. But that uses a bar and i prefer free weights.

I'm also using a trainer to help build endurance and core strength ... I took a big setback from the chemo (and time off of training), but i'm back at it now.

Ray

CafeRacer,

Can you tell us a bit about yourself? Have your problems been related to Lupron? How long have you been on it? How did you wind up on the Lupron?

If you are on Lupron there are other drugs you can take to offset the bone loss but they have other side effects.

Hi Peter. My prostate cancer was originally a Gleeson 3/4. I had my prostate removed in 2006 at the age of 53. A year later my PSA was creeping back up so I went through 37 radiation treatments.
All was well until late 2013 when notice every once in awhile blood in my urine. The Doc scoped me out and fought a small growth the size of a pencil. Biopsy came back malignant. Had it removed. Started on Lupron shots every three months starting November. 2013.
My last shot was April 2014. The side effects I have experienced are: hot flashes, frequent urination ( I drink a lot of water), mood swings, insomnia and something called the Lupron "fog". Which is decrease in my cognitive processes and memory.
Last PSA was .006. So far so good.

You said the last shot was in April of last year. Are you done with it, do you think, or on "vacation"? Since you were doing three month shots it should have worn off, more or less, in July. Coincidentally, that's when the last shot of my two years of androgen deprivation therapy also theoretically wore off too. Recovery after you stop the Lupron can take up to two years and sometimes never happens but six months to a year is typical depending on your age and how long you are on the stuff. You are also more-or-less the same age as I am but you weren't on ADT as long as I am so your testosterone should be recovering, probably quicker than mine. You should be getting back to the point where exercise starts to work for you again.

What did your surgeon say about exercise? In general to rebuild bone you want to work as heavy as you can safely manage. Both muscle and bone tend to grow in response to stress and working too light doesn't do anything for your bone density.

Logoslidat. The chance of bladder cancer had me concerned also. The Doc said everything is good. I haven't had any bloodin urine since they took the tumor out.

Sorry, CafeRacer. I was confused by your dates. When you said "My last shot was April 2014." you probably meant 2015 since April 2014 was 13 months ago.

And, yes, some doctors will let some guys take a "vacation" sometimes after a period on the shots if they seem to be working really well. You may see it referred to as IADT where the "I" stands for "Intermittent" as in Intermittent Androgen Deprivation Therapy. The research comparing continuous and intermittent ADT is confusing and different conclusions can be drawn depending on whether one is discouraged by IADT not being any better or encouraged by it being very nearly as good. Mostly it is something to ask your doctor about in another year or so if your PSA continues to behave.

I guess by me filling in the blanks you told me it was a pca tumor in the bladder I do not think you understood the logic of what i said. I know less now than when I asked the original question. But having said all that. You seem happy as a clam. imo you will never have to worry about pca again, congrats to that .

After you get into your 60's you're going to gain little or not muscle even without Lupron. Maybe a pound per year vs. 10+ lbs in your 20's. But I keep hearing that exercise is best way to ward off the nasty SE's.

Gunner,
In December 2016, I started watching what I eat and lost 20 pounds while on Lupron and Zytiga. about three months later I started doing inclined push ups. I started with 20 reps and was exhausted. I have now pushed that up to a set of 55, 40 and 25 reps and have noticed that my arms seem more muscular. I perform those reps to near failure. Not that I will be entering any body building contests because the hardest thing to lose is the fat around my abdomen. I have also started stretching and doing some balance exercises and they have helped tremendously. I do walk on a daily basis but also have pulled my basketball out of the garage and have been shooting some hoops to help with my cardiovascular and coordination. So in my experience, I think you can build muscle with little testosterone.

Gunner, I hear ya. I too have some stubborn belly fat, and that has never before been a pattern for me. My body doesn't feel like my own somehow, since the PCa treatment effects have changed it in ways that are a bit hard to accept.

My limit lately on strength training seems to be my joints. At different times, different areas seem to "go off", and then I have to drop weight and reps until they're ok again.

Oddly, on a few exercises I seem to be losing ability (fewer reps at the same weight). Even with a better testosterone level than baseline, I think my body has lost the ability somehow to actually benefit from that testosterone. Three years of ADT2 may have compromised the systems that use testosterone, so even though it's being produced it's not being used properly. Pretty weird.

Redwing
I can relate to that stalling out a bit too. I feel that during some workouts. Similarly, I did some hiking with my sons in the hills and mountains around Phoenix a couple weeks ago. I was moving fine (actually I think that climate fits my body very well - I always feel great there) but the feeling was that I was moving my bones and not flexing my muscles. Hard to explain.
I turned 50 last fall and I wondered whether I could blame my decline on just natural aging. I think most of us can relate to that. I was just hoping to relate to it later rather than sooner. I'm sure age doesn't help but I'm guessing that over 4 years of treatments for PCa is the bigger factor.
I never intended this thread to be a vent so I'll try nit to get too far off track although I guess there's no harm in letting off some steam while battling the confusion of why my body doesn't behave the way it used to.

Ok, just a couple of things to add here.

You guys already know that I am an exercise fanatic, black belt in Taekwondo, 7 miles a day runner, weight training etc. Also eat very healthy balanced diet.

"Androgen deprivation therapy" is called that because it is the intention of the chemotherapy intervention to deprive the PCa of testosterone. How ADT chemo actually works is the constant deluge of leuprolide chemical in your blood stream shuts down your pituitary gland completely. While that indeed stops the production of gonadotrophin which is supposed to tell your testes to produce testosterone, thus shutting them down, it also stops production of other hormones.

One of those is Human Growth Hormone, HGH. HGH is what tells the muscle stem cells in a muscle to reproduce and make more muscle cells to build or repair that muscle. Without HGH it doesn't happen. Also, HGH tells your hippocampus to produce neural stem cells to replace dead, dying or damaged neurons. Thus the 'mild cognitive impairment' that comes along with ADT chemo.

The loss of "follicle stimulating hormone" FSH is why your body hair falls out. The loss of "thyroid stimulating hormone" TSH, causes a drop in your metabolic rate. The now excess calories contribute to your new - found ability to turn excess kcals into fat.

Meanwhile, the lack of prolactin makes your kidneys retain more water in your blood (water weight gain) and messes with the amount and consistency of the mucus lining in your lungs.

Just as we refer to chemotherapy with Leuprolide chemicals and their analogues as "androgen deprivation therapy" to make it easier to swallow understand and explain, we blame a bunch of Leuprolide chemotherapy side effects on a simple loss of 1 hormone - testosterone - because that is easy.

The thing is, to deal with the side effects of concern, it will take more than testosterone to address. It takes a suite of hormones to deal with a suite of problem side effects. Through it all, it is of great benefit to each and every one of us to get and stay as active as we possibly can.