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Will MRI show cancer? Thoughts on natural cures?

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Posted 8/6/2015 11:42 PM (GMT 0)
I am 48 and diagnosed at the end of May as a Gleason 7, 4 of 12 cores positive. Scheduled for RPI at the end of Aug and having an MRI tomorrow.

I have searched the web after my diagnosis and found many sites and testimonials of people claiming to to have cured cancer naturally. While getting second opinions etc I gave some of these protocols a shot, what do I have to lose...

I have changed my diet, cut out carbs, sugar and focused on three protocols trying to get rid of the cancer in the last six weeks. Protocols are Budwig with 5 tablespoons/day of flax seed oil and cottage cheese, boosting my PH with alkaline water and baking soda, and Essiac tea. Here is the interesting part:

PSA pre prostate cancer (as far as I know) in 2011: 2.15
PSA in Jan when I had prostate infection. 3.3
PSA pre biopsy in April 3.29
PSA June: 3.5
PSA yesterday 2.31

My stats are below. If these protocols are working I want to put off the RPI and give it more time. My stats are below but I would like to know if the MRI will show the cancer and am am interested in opinions from the forum.

My prostate was measured during the biopsy at 42 grams and is considered enlarged.
- Right apex Gleason 3+3=6 1:2 cores 10%
- Right mid 3+4=7 2:2 cores 90% and 40%. 10% of tumor Gleason 4 pattern
- Rightbase: small atypical acinar proliferation.
- Left Mid 3+3=6 1:2 cores 30%.
Posted 8/6/2015 11:53 PM (GMT 0)
Most of the 'natural' cures are actually frauds. There is evidence they don't work and no evidence they do work (i.e. double blind study proving effectiveness, plus many are based on faulty science and wishful thinking).

A prostate infection can raise the PSA to rise and fall - much like what you are seeing so one explanation for your drop in PSA is that the infection is clearing up.

At your PSA number the MRI is unlikely to pin point the PC. You should be guided by the biopsy results.

Andrew
Posted 8/7/2015 12:30 AM (GMT 0)
In my case the answer was yes and no. Biopsy confirmed it in one area my first MRI had found. Biopsy also found it in another area that had not shown up in that MRI. Subsequent MRI found both areas.
Posted 8/7/2015 12:43 AM (GMT 0)
My opinion is that humans naturally gravitate to information that appeals to us. And man is it appealing to think there are are natural cures for cancer. Think Steve Jobs and pancreatic cancer. (Although that's also a much more serious disease than prostate cancer.)

That said, based on your stats you might qualify for active surveillance. And while you're on active surveillance (which ideally would be forever, although there's no guarantee), what a great time to put in place a healthy lifestyle. Based on your diagnosis and the way you're leaning, I would seriously consider investigating AS.
Posted 8/7/2015 1:29 AM (GMT 0)
While it may be true (emphasis on MAY) that diet and supplements can decrease an individuals cancer risk, there is nothing I've ever seen that actually shows by real research that there are 'natural' cures for any cancer.

Cancer is a curious beast, to be sure, because it is fundamentally a situation where our bodies turn against us. The question that intrigues me most is why do some people and families seem to completely avoid cancers, and it seems to be everywhere in other families.
Posted 8/7/2015 11:11 AM (GMT 0)
I agree that there are currently no "natural" or "homeopathic" foods or measures that will (have been proven by a double blind study) cure cancer. Obviously, a healthy lifestyle will maximize your bodies ability to fight any disease, cancer inclusive.

That said, a G7 means that you have Gleason grade 4 cancer cells living in your body now and you are not doing anything to dissuade them from living, growing and reproducing. That means they are busy making new cancer cells, some of which are going to be Gleason grade 5 while the number of Gleason grade 4 cancer cells continues to increase. G5 cancer stem cells are very aggressive, can travel throughout you body to set up camp wherever they land, then they will create a new little prostate gland ("looks like a raspberry") there - even if it is in a vertebra, your brain or your lung.

My personal choice was to rid myself of the primary tumour right away, then follow up with other counter measures (EBRT + ADT) to try and kill off all of those pesky little buggers. I did "active surveillance" for 11 months while my PSA went from 7.5 to 11.1 and my prostate went from "large" to "large and bumpy" (due to those 2 extracapsular extensions the cancer put out while I was "watching" it grow......
Posted 8/7/2015 5:16 PM (GMT 0)
I would have got it removed immediately. PCa found on younger men (<55) is often more aggressive than cancer found later in life. You will have to do it later anyway. Even if diet and drugs like Pomi-T might delays the PSA rise there is absolutely no evidence that they affect the cancer itself. Maybe it even hides the progress of the cancer? Diet for general health is great but don't hope it will affect already existing cancer.
MRI i my case revealed cancer in both lobes while the biopsy said only at one side. On the other side the biopsy found one core EP but the MRI said no EP. So they complements each other.
Posted 8/7/2015 10:06 PM (GMT 0)
Thanks guys,

I had the MRI this morning, not as bad I thought. I read some postings saying it was worse than the biopsy, no where near as bad in my case. There was discomfort putting I the prob but barely even felt it during the imaging. Awaiting the results at this point.
Posted 8/8/2015 12:40 AM (GMT 0)
Wolfster,
It seems to me you are in an interesting position. It also seems to me that natural remedies and homeopathy are readily dismissed on this site. There is plenty of evidence to support natural remedies...just because they are not backed up by double blind studies doesn't mean some of them haven't worked for some people. (There are no blind studies available on the existance of God. Does that mean we need to dismiss the possibility?)There are many reasons for a lack of consistency with remedies/cures/alternative treatments...too many to go into.
My current experience has been using homeopathy, diet and energy work, while on Active Surveillance. I agree it's rolling the dice. However, I have managed to seriously improve my quality of life since diagnosis two and a half years ago.
Personality I believe plays into the decisions we make. Some of us want a quick solution and perhaps go for surgery. Others of us will choose radiation of some kind. And so it goes on.
I hope with AS I can keep my options open and if needs be I will choose one of the more aggressive treatments.
Good luck with your decision making process. You asked ,i believe for advice. I would say try not to base your decision on your fears but rather allow yourself to be "guided" by your inner wisdom.
Posted 8/8/2015 1:05 AM (GMT 0)

Wolfster said...
Thanks guys,

I had the MRI this morning, not as bad I thought. I read some postings saying it was worse than the biopsy, no where near as bad in my case. There was discomfort putting I the prob but barely even felt it during the imaging. Awaiting the results at this point.

Good luck to you. I also took some alternative approaches while waiting for scheduled surgeries, and FWIW had a 23% drop during the 2 month wait and following Bx which some say increases PSA. First ever PSA(over almost 14 years) that did not increase. Previous PSA, even after my PCP gave me antibiotic treatment(in case it was prostatitis) during the couple of weeks it took me to get in to the urologist, showed a dramatic increase in less than 3 weeks. But over many years, all PSAs had always gone up except the one I had drawn just a few days before my surgery.

Now did that actually slow down or otherwise have a positive effect on my PC, or simply alter my PSA without touching my PC, or did it do nothing and it was just a fluke and my PSA just decided to go down or was there a lab error? Don't know. Never will.

I also had a very slight down grade of my G9 from 5+4 to 4+5, but that happens occasionally for folks who do nothing, so probably means nothing. Still, as it cost little and caused me no apparent problems, I would do the same thing again. I just wish I had caught my cancer much earlier and then had also done the same thing, either while just waiting for my surgery or while doing AS. Or even tried the same thing months or years before having a Bx and getting my diagnosis. I knew about it and meant to try it for a few years before my big PSA rise and Bx.
Posted 8/8/2015 2:16 AM (GMT 0)
Baldeagle, I think we have to be careful with language. Do diet, homepathic remedies, etc. have positive effects on quality of life? Absolutely they do. Anytime we take care of our bodies, we get a reward with feeling better. I would also never, ever, discount the existence and activity of God. Never.

Now, we also need to remember that PSA is NOT an indicator of the presence of, or aggressiveness of, cancer. It is, to use a common statement, a 'check engine light' for your prostate. A lowering PSA does not indicate a decrease in cancer activity. As I said before, I took saw palmetto for some time, and there are many indications that it kept my PSA low, and therefore masked my PC.

Can these kinds of remedies be a part of managing PC? Or a part of a long term general health strategy? Sure. I would, however, be cautious of using the word "cure" in conjunction with "cancer". My father died of spinal metastasis 6 months after a radiation oncologist pronounced him cured.
Posted 8/8/2015 2:22 AM (GMT 0)

Wolfster said...
Thanks guys,

I had the MRI this morning, not as bad I thought. I read some postings saying it was worse than the biopsy, no where near as bad in my case. There was discomfort putting I the prob but barely even felt it during the imaging. Awaiting the results at this point.

Glad to hear it wasn't bad.

Do let us know what the results are when you get them.
Andrew
Posted 8/8/2015 11:26 AM (GMT 0)
Seems to me the benefit of the MRI has passed. Having it before the biopsy may have been beneficial in that it probably would have shown some or all of the cancers found on biopsy and maybe others that could have been tested on biopsy. The biopsy is definitive. You may have some other cancer in there that wasn't sampled, but what you already know probably means you need treatment. Others may think you could wait and see.

You did not mention the type of MRI you had. Unless it was a mp MRI done by a health provider with T3 equipment and an experienced radiologist on staff who has lots of experience evaluating prostate cancer images, I would not rely on it. Also, I would want a guided biopsy if cancer is suspected in new areas. Some of the smaller Gleason 6's might not show up, but the Gleason 7 should for sure.
Posted 8/8/2015 12:37 PM (GMT 0)
While I treat theists with the same respect as I treat anyone else, I must note that I am a Buddhist and an atheist. While religious rituals and such can indeed be emotionally helpful to the 'faithful', I would really appreciate it if we could avoid proselysation along those lines.

I am a university graduate with a very strong background in science, thus I have a lot of 'faith' in double blind studies and other scientific means to discover facts that can be of service to humanity. While there are indeed "exceptions", "spontaneous remissions" and events that may qualify as "miracles", those remain anecdotes for most of us so we must plod along relying on current scientific intercessions.

While I deeply appreciate the fear that a diagnosis of cancer brings, it is illogical to allow your fear to drive your actions - especially when that fear guides you away from mainstream medicine.

Dinosaurs lived completely "natural" lives many millions of years ago, yet we find fossilized bone cancers in their fossil skeletons. Homeopathy is described here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeopathy

for those who wish to avoid the pain and hassle of standard medical treatment for life - threatening disease.
Posted 8/8/2015 12:46 PM (GMT 0)
Wolfster,
Just dropping in to offer support as one of the "younger" guys here.
You've received some good advice. I won't add anything. This is a great spot to read and learn. Ask questions. There are some smart guys here that are willing to help.
All the best, keep us in the loop.
Posted 8/8/2015 4:34 PM (GMT 0)

trailguy said...
While I treat theists with the same respect as I treat anyone else, I must note that I am a Buddhist and an atheist. While religious rituals and such can indeed be emotionally helpful to the 'faithful', I would really appreciate it if we could avoid proselysation along those lines.

.......................

Someone proselytized? I did see " (There are no blind studies available on the existance of God. Does that mean we need to dismiss the possibility?)" but I did not see that as proselytizing any more than I would if one substituted the words Buddha or atheism for "God". It would be a simple factual statement that there are no double blind studies proving anything about the subjects, but that does not mean we should dismiss the possibilities. If some one made such a statement to me about Buddha I don't think I would feel proselytized. I would just take it as a statement of fact used as an example. An example that a lack of double blind studies about any subject does not prove that these subjects are not worthy of consideration. But that's just me.
Posted 8/8/2015 4:39 PM (GMT 0)
My MRI was done ar Dana Farber in Boston and images will be read locally. I had the dongle inserted along with another device over my pelvis. Radiologist said it was the best machine they had for prostate and images were very clear. Surgeon wanted the MRI to see how close cancer was to my nerves. Still waiting for results to be posted.

I went at the baking soda and alkaline water hard, boosting the ph of my urine to over 8.0. My ph prior to alkaline protocol was low 6. I read cancer thrives in low oxygen acidic environment and dies within hours if PH is above 8. My PSA dropped 34% from 6/30 to 8/5. Again, Felt I had nothing to lose, surgury scheduled for the end of Aug. We shall see...
Posted 8/8/2015 6:06 PM (GMT 0)
You have Gleason 7 Prostate Cancer..The only thing that has been PROVEN to cure it are surgery and radiation..."Alternative cures" and " Natural Medicine" can perhaps be helpful in slowing the Beast down, but the only people they ever CURED never had cancer to begin with....Just My Humble Opinion......Be careful with the Bi-Carb...You can really mess yourself up with that..
Posted 8/8/2015 8:44 PM (GMT 0)
Guess I was being overly sensitive, my apologies. Those anxiety attacks hit me hard in the AM before that run...
Posted 8/8/2015 10:19 PM (GMT 0)

trailguy said...
Guess I was being overly sensitive, my apologies. Those anxiety attacks hit me hard in the AM before that run...

No problem, I am oversensitive too sometimes. What run? Are you running in the mornings?
Posted 8/8/2015 10:39 PM (GMT 0)
Fair winds post above says all that needs to be said, Wolfster.
It's great that your PSA has dropped if it gives you peace of mind. But thee is no way to know why.
The fact that your biopsy came back positive makes it clear that you have cancer with some Gleason grade 4.

I am reminded of Steve Jobs when I hear about alternative medicine. I'm sure at some point he had reason to believe it was working.
Posted 8/8/2015 11:28 PM (GMT 0)
No religion is to be discussed. You guys are already over the boundary, so just stop now.

Otherwise a lock and edits will be forthcoming.
Posted 8/9/2015 1:42 AM (GMT 0)
Personally...i can live with some "consciousness" about "prostate food"...but it's not something I feel that I can personally rely on as a long term or short term "cure" for it. There's been some interesting studies done about the effects of stuff like pomegranate juice that's been shown to lower PSA's

That said, if home remedies could keep grade 4 cells from spreading, medicine has yet to prove it.

Grade 4 cells equals a need for treatment. ..esp. In younger men and men with the amount of cancer that appears to be in your prostate.

MRI's can be one more piece of a larger mosaic. ..but treatment is the best medicine with cancer that metastasizes.

Good luck on your journey. You should be eminently curable.
Posted 8/9/2015 11:41 AM (GMT 0)

BillyBob@388 said...
What run? Are you running in the mornings?

Yes, every morning. A bit more than 7 miles every day, average 50 miles a week. I did slow down after the surgery for a year, then it took the next year to get back up to normal. It really helps to even things out and maintain some semblance of my pre - diagnosis condition.

Rich
Posted 8/9/2015 11:50 AM (GMT 0)

142 said...
No religion is to be discussed. You guys are already over the boundary, so just stop now.

Otherwise a lock and edits will be forthcoming.

Not trying to be a smartass, but I don't see 'no religion' in the rules. I do understand no proselytizing. Is simple mention of a religious concept of any kind forbidden?
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