Red meat and Dairy products

Interesting link BillyBob@388. Thank you.

Cicero,
I'm afraid that statistics don't work the way you suppose. P<.05 means that we can reject the null hypothesis= that there is no association. A p of .7 and a p of .1 means the same thing - that there is a high probability that any observed association could have been observed by pure chance, just because of the variance in the observed numbers. P only tells you the statistical significance. There is a different statistic, in this study, the hazard ratio, that tells you how strongly one variable impacts another. In this study, the only hazard ratio that was statistically significant (i.e., 95% of the values did not include 1.0) was the top quartile of egg consumption.

It is furthermore wrong to infer a causal relationship. For example, it is entirely possible that those super egg consumers perhaps, were say, extremely elderly, more likely to live on farms where herbicides were used, or were in some ethnic group with a high propensity for prostate cancer. Association is not causation.These kinds of studies are pretty useless to draw causal conclusions from. Their purpose is only to generate hypotheses.

- Allen

Pratoman said...
@Dewayne, keep posting about what you saw in the food/chicken business, you will drive me to go vegan, which i would be a good thing. I cant do it on my own LOL

What is it about eggs that makes it supposedly bad? I would imagine its the saturated fat in the yolk? I rarely eat whole eggs, but i have egg whites (eggbeaters egg whites) at least once a day, sometimes twice.
I rarely eat red meat any more, maybe once or twice a month at most. I miss it. I loved a good 24 oz ribeye, but i've sworn off the stuff. Mostly due to cardiac issues not Prostate

They seem to think it is the choline in the yolk:

article said...
A plausible mechanism that may explain our observed association between eggs and prostate cancer progression is high dietary choline. Egg consumption is a determinant of plasma choline, and higher plasma choline was recently reported to be associated with a greater risk of prostate cancer (50, 51). Malignant prostate cells have higher choline concentrations than do healthy cells, and choline kinase is overexpressed in prostate cancer (52–54). In addition, because of the increased uptake of choline by progressing prostate tumors, radiolabeled choline is used to identify early prostate cancer recurrence (55). No studies have examined dietary choline and prostate cancer risk or progression; however, higher dietary choline has been associated with an increased risk of colorectal adenoma in women (56).

Now for a kick in the groin, from another source:

Somebody said...
Choline is utilized by the body in a variety of ways including aiding nerve signaling, maintenance of cell membranes, transporting triglycerides from the liver, and as a constituent of nervous system tissues in early brain development. Choline is also a precursor of acetylcholine, a neurotransmitter vital to nerve and muscle function, and a component of lecithin, which is critical to normal liver metabolism. Without adequate dietary intake of choline, there is a higher-than-normal risk of chronic liver damage and eventual liver failure. Choline is vital in forming very low density lipoprotein (VLDL) in the liver, which helps transport fat from that organ to cells throughout the body. Although VLDL is considered a "bad" form of cholesterol because high levels indicate an abundance of circulating triglycerides, if VLDL levels fall too low, fat will begin to accumulate in the liver.

What are the signs of a deficiency?
There is a higher likelihood of choline deficiency in people with a condition known as fatty liver. In rats, dietary choline deficiency has been associated with an increased incidence of liver cancer. Because it is a component of cell membranes and neurotransmitters, and used in nerve signaling, Choline may also play a role in memory; conversely, memory loss and dementia may indicate choline deficiency, though more research is needed to confirm the association.

How much, and what kind, does an adult need?
The National Academy of Sciences established an Adequate Intake level of:

men, 550 mcg
women, 425 mcg
pregnant females of any age, 450 mg
lactating females of any age, 550 mg

One egg yolk contains 682 mg choline. So according to the NAS adequate intake levels, we would all need about 1 egg per day, or some other source of choline. Which would put us way, way up into the highest quartile and hazard ratio, if choline is the villain. So pick your poison I guess, dementia or PC recurrence?

So I hope TA is right about "For example, it is entirely possible that those super egg consumers perhaps, were say, extremely elderly, more likely to live on farms where herbicides were used, or were in some ethnic group with a high propensity for prostate cancer. Association is not causation. These kinds of studies are pretty useless to draw causal conclusions from. Their purpose is only to generate hypotheses.". Because I would prefer a few eggs per week or more, and think the body benefits overall from the choline(in fact the body produces it's own choline- just as it does cholesterol- but apparently not enough.)

Still, though I hope the study is useless for causality, don't they usually divide these patients up so that the characteristics are pretty closely matched in each category? I guess there could be some unkown characteristics/negatives, but seems unlikely they would all end up in the highest quartile of egg and poultry/skin consumer. But possible I guess.
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3132069/table/tbl1/

Post Edited (BillyBob@388) : 9/30/2015 8:12:53 PM (GMT-6)

I love these discussions!

My (genetic type) PCa was triggered by my exposure to lead and/or arsenic so diet had jack to do with getting it. I advise all of you to avoid both lead and arsenic in your diet.

I note that no-one is pushing for that daily half hour of strenuous walking despite that it has been proven to slow the progression of PCa:

somebody said...
ScienceDaily (May 24, 2011) — A study of 1,455 U.S. men diagnosed with early-stage prostate cancer has found a link between brisk walking and lowered risk of prostate cancer progression, according to scientists at the University of California, San Francisco and the Harvard School of Public Health.

The scientists found that men who walked briskly -- at least three miles per hour -- for at least three hours per week after diagnosis were nearly 60 percent less likely to develop biochemical markers of cancer recurrence or need a second round of treatment for prostate cancer.
"The important point was the intensity of the activity -- the walking had to be brisk for men to experience a benefit," said Erin Richman, ScD, a postdoctoral fellow at UCSF who is the first author on the study, published in the journal Cancer Research. "Our results provide men with prostate cancer something they can do to improve their prognosis."

I do not believe that there is a simple magic bullet to stop PCa, but I am sure that living a healthy lifestyle helps deal with it quite a lot. Eat right, get plenty of exercise and rest. All common sense. :)

Somebody said...
I advise all of you to avoid both lead and arsenic in your diet.

I didn't knew that rice cakes are full o arsenic but apparently they are.
www.thelocal.se/20150929/swedish-experts-say-rice-cakes-are-full-of-arsenic

Somebody said...
Men diagnosed with prostate cancer die more commonly of other causes such as heart disease, indicating that lifestyle changes affect prognosis, according to a new Swedish-American study.

"Our study shows that lifestyle changes, such as weight loss and increased physical activity as well as stopping smoking, has a greater effect on the patient's survival than the treatment they receive for their prostate cancer," said Hans-Olov Adami at Sweden's Karolinska Institute and the Harvard School of Public Health.

The study involved some 700,000 patients in the US and Sweden diagnosed with prostate cancer.

I strongly believe that meats and dairy products are the cause of most medical issues in our times. I truely respect Dr Gregor who is a vegan and has hundreds of videos on health and nutrition. He is a respected and backs his webcasts with science. Please check it out....you can start here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1DCjwIVJmMw