Is the MEDICAL community Wrong about Diet? Or Ignorant? Or Worse, Evil and Self Enriching?

In another thread, Wilderness said...

Wilderness said...

So deal with the cancerous prostate, Dreamer - surgery or radiation - and you've good odds of delaying or averting further spread with diet & exercise. It appears to be working well for a number of us.

Wilderness

I have been struggling with this for a while. I see the anecdotal evidence - Wilderness, Cashless Clay, and others. It's amazing, and I am glad for them. And yet I just cannot wrap my mind around the idea that counseling patients should be part of - a big part of - Standard of Care, even mandated, but isn't.

Why? Is the Medical establishment simply trying to protect their franchise? I don't mean individual doctors so much as the organizations that establish SOC. Or do doctors just not know as much as we do? I always hesitate, as I do on this topic, to embrace conspiracy theories. But this makes no sense.

There seems to not be a lot of scientific PROOF for diet and exercise slowing or preventing progression once PC is diagnosed, only studies that are flawed in one way or another. But there sure is a lot of non scientifically proven evidence.

and at the same time, my Uro/surgeon has told me that the best thing I can do to prevent or delay BCR is to lose weight and exercise on a very consistent basis. I know others have heard the same from their doctors. Still , it's not the norm, and it's not a focus, and it's certainly not standard of care.

For my part, I don't think that there's a direct push not to have people take on healthy habits since it could impact business. I think the medical profession probably does want to encourage healthy lifestyles, but to your point it doesn't seem to be built into the system in any sort of robust fashion. I'm also not sure to what extent it's built into medical school curriculum. But I think that's more about the fact that changing practices is akin to turning around a battleship. And to IT's point, the fact that there aren't studies probably plays a role as well. (While insurance companies don't set the SOC, they certainly have a financial incentive to push the healthy eating/diet side of the equation. I'm not sure where that potentially fits in.)

My uro oncologist has encouraged me regarding diet.
I wasn't surprised to hear him say that my diet should be mostly vegetables. I was surprised to hear him say that, since I am currently dieting with a low carb regimen, that he believes I am probably getting more protein than he recommends. I had heard that red meat might be frowned upon, but when I asked him about even fish, he reiterated that I only need a single serving of protein, any animal-based protein, daily. I didn't ask if plant-based protein would be less constrictive, although I might next time I see him.

In summary, the doctors I have been in contact with during my PCa battle have advocated diet as an integral component of my treatment.
Jeff

Wow, what a title! I now go on past the title to read with interest!

Since I got my PCa diagnosis, lot of people I have met have talked about you can overcome cancer by changing your diet, juicing etc. Couple of people told me about this 10 day body cleanse in Hawaii at Angel Farms that has supposedly cured cancer in lots of people - any thoughts

http://www.angelfarms.com/angel-farms-questions-and-answers/

The title presupposes the validity of the premise with zip zero evidence of such...hence any conclusion is smoke and mirror signifying nothing...Welcome to the dark side{no intent by Prato...this happens often when fear and/or anger get involved}of the 21st century...fear not...there is a much brighter side to the 21st century... bubbling thru once...fear knots.... I know...it seethes...

logoslidat said...
fear knots

deep wisdom in two words. It would take a thousand to explain...

logoslidat said...
{no intent by Prato...this happens often when fear and/or anger get involved}of the 21st century...fear not.... I know...it seethes...

^^^

My apologies to the OP for not being more insightful.

Let it out...it just hit me tonight. (It's an "island time" type post).

Hang in there bro

Post Edited (island time) : 4/1/2018 8:57:15 PM (GMT-6)

Island Time said...
SOC needs consensus. And consensus is built on studies.

Michael_T said...
For my part, I don't think that there's a direct push not to have people take on healthy habits since it could impact business. I think the medical profession probably does want to encourage healthy lifestyles, but to your point it doesn't seem to be built into the system in any sort of robust fashion. I'm also not sure to what extent it's built into medical school curriculum. But I think that's more about the fact that changing practices is akin to turning around a battleship. And to IT's point, the fact that there aren't studies probably plays a role as well. (While insurance companies don't set the SOC, they certainly have a financial incentive to push the healthy eating/diet side of the equation. I'm not sure where that potentially fits in.)

Ah yes, the studies. One of my pet peeve subjects, about which I have started a few threads over the last few years. Asking: Just where are the studies? And unbiased, and useful studies not designed to fail? I think we will all be gone before we have definitive studies on various non-prescription approaches. Really, where are they, the studies? Do you really think that we could not know for certain - or at least with much more certainty- by now? But the years just keep rolling on, and we are left in a world of anecdotes vs medical advice which, for the most part, simply does not know, as the medics- like us- don't have the studies either. Most have an opinion, mind you, but they don't really know any more than we do.

We have about 1 bazillion studies showing strong, sometimes extremely strong, associations between this and that. And almost no studies showing harm for various non-prescription approaches. But as the studies showing good news from strong associations keep piling up, but the clinical trials are very few indeed. Or they might do a clinical trial, and use too low of a dose of whatever, or fail to use an actual placebo so at the end, we still don't know. With the endless refrain "more studies are needed". No kidding. Where are they? Where are the real studies that will tell us what we need to know?

As we wait, our advisors, who just like us, have no real studies, usually tell us that nothing will help, though it probably won't hurt.

Wilderness said...
...................
Best book I've read on this is Servan-Shreiber's Anti Cancer A New Way of Life

I would not rely on doctors to lead on a healthy lifestyle beyond BMI, regular exercise, variety of foods. I imagine they have a hard enough road working smoking, eating disorders, obesity. But I have found them to be helpful when I ask for advice.

Wilderness

I read that also, a while back. Wasn't he told by his doctors(MD himself, right?) that nothing that he did- other than possibly the treatment they were offering him, maybe- would make any difference? Basically, just do whatever you want, it makes no difference? Unless I am thinking of another book?

So the consensus is, there is no c0nsensus. Which I guess is why doctors don't spend more time discussing the issue.

I think Billybob said it well, and addressed TA's concern. It seems every study on the subject ends with the comment "further studies are needed". Well, we'll never see them. I don't believe there is a conspiracy theory on the part of doctors. I do believe there is at least an element of it on the part of the pharma industry.

A movie worth watching (documentary) on Netflix, is "The Widowmaker". It's the story of how the medical establishment suppressed the use of CT Heart Scans and Calcium scores, for decades.

IT, logo, yup, there is some fear in my original post. I'm not afraid to admit it, as I await the results of my latest PSA, after a couple of months of overeating sugar, cheese etc., not knowing whether to believe the diet theories, guidelines, or anecdotes, or whatever you want to call them. I fully expect another rise, and am prepping as to whether to blame myself , or just chalk it up to bad luck and bullcrap Decipher results.

Just to be clear regarding my original post in this thread.......

My Dr does talk to me about diet and exercise. The main point of my posting was not to suggest a conspiracy theory among doctors, as I stated that's something I always hesitate to embrace. My intent was to "wonder out loud" about why it's not made a much bigger deal of, by doctors, rather than, just a conversation that comes up casually, which I think is the case with many doctors. SPECIFIC to PC.

Cashless,
Over the years I have seen many fad diets come and go, The Food Pyramid has changed over time. The Atkins diet was the rage 20 years ago, no carbs. Then there was the no fat diet, the Paleo diet, gluten free, ect.. Then all the latest supplements, for the eyes, skin, brain and every other part of your body. Every few years there is another discovery that contradicts everything you have been told. Vitamin E and selenium prevents cancer, no wait, it causes cancer, What to believe???
Too many anecdotal stories, my best friend ,football coach that followed a strict diet and worked out daily died at 55, just like his dad and mom did. I don't think his diet helped him live longer.
When I see a long term study that has hundreds of thousands of samples, then I'll take a closer look. The years have turned me into a skeptic as I have been burned too many times.
My psa has risen during diets, my psa has fallen during diets, so what, that's what psa does ( see my last post on 4 different psa readings in 5 mos.) I have hundreds of psa readings over twenty years tracked them all, no correlation to any diet or supplement, I've been through them all, read all the books looking for the magic pill.