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So frustrating: Any word yet about the Vitamin C, Yay or Nay?

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Posted 7/21/2020 8:40 PM (GMT 0)
OK, just found this, which is more like it. We are getting there. Now, this one is a little trickier to read. It is "Impact of IV Ascorbic Acid in Critical Illness, Database of All Published Trials" as of Apr 2020, which adds up to 24 trials. This is looking at treating sepsis in ICU ( Keep in mind most CV-19 deaths have, and actually die of, sepsis. ) with either AA (acorbic acid AKA vitamin C) or HAT( Hydrocortisone/AscorbicAcid/Thiamine) vs either usual standard of care or hydrocortisone(HCS) alone. ( Some of these people have now switched from HCS to the similar drug methylprednisolone as they think it is superior for treating inflammatory lung diseases) .

I suggest scrolling left to right until HOSPITAL OR 28 DAY MORTALITY (INTERVENTION VS. CONTROL) is on the far right of the screen. And look at the color coding at the top of the screen, and then scroll down looking especially for green which is "GREEN = RANDOMIZED CONTROLLED TRIAL OR STATISTICALLY SIGNIFICANT OUTCOME DIFFERENCE IN FAVOR OF INTERVENTION". And "YELLOW = STATISTICAL "TREND" OF OUTCOME DIFFERENCE IN FAVOR OF INTERVENTION" and "GREY: MARKED DIFFERENCE IN A SMALL TRIAL".

But most interesting to me is "RED = STATISTICALLY SIGNIFICANT OR STATISTICAL "TREND" IN FAVOR OF CONTROL GROUP/STANDARD CARE (NOTE:NONE HAVE BEEN REPORTED TO DATE)". That one is to me the most amazing. If we are trying to find out if apparent benefits of AA or HAT therapy are by chance, then there should be at least a few that have shown statistically significant benefits for NOT doing these interventions, for either simply giving standard of care alone or in favor of the placebo group. Notice: though not all(most, but not all) showed a significant benefit, studies reporting better off with placebo or standard of care: "none have been reported to date". Personally, that makes me want for them to give me some IV vitamin C, with or without those other steroid drugs, if I am in ICU with sepsis and/or CV-19.

Also amazing are things like how some studies only gave a mere ONE gram of IV vitamin C every 8 hours( or 3 grams/day, I know of older studies where they gave 50 or 100) and STILL reported "ICU MORTALITY 30% vs. 70% (p<.01)"! Other studies with larger doses or adding the steroid drugs show such as "HOSPITAL MORTALITY 8.5% vs. 40.4% (p<.001)". Or "ICU MORTALITY 9.6% vs. 42.0% (p=.004)".

Or how about this one: "ICU MORTALITY 0.0% vs. 26.0% (p=.001)"!

Any way, bottom line, of these 24 studies of various doses and combinations of IV vitamin C with already oft used drugs, not a single one showed significantly in favor of no IV vitamin C, most of the rest showed at least some benefit, and quite a few showed very large differences in favor of IV vitamin C. But if you see something in the news on this subject, such as the USA Today article I linked to earlier, you are most likely to see, in summary, "there is no evidence in favor of IV vitamin C".
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2pacx-1vtc9ysk-kteaylouvkyeto9an8kzehj5dg6lwbafgkj12_wtk4cdeedl9vvi4c53njlozbx_ohovy4k/pubhtml

Post Edited (BillyBob@388) : 7/21/2020 2:43:00 PM (GMT-6)

Posted 7/22/2020 10:14 AM (GMT 0)
I'm happy they busted that quack.
Posted 7/22/2020 2:27 PM (GMT 0)

Buddy Blank said...
I'm happy they busted that quack.

I'm not. Here they are with nothing much to offer against the massive death toll of CV-19. People are just supposed to stay away from other people for months on end, vast numbers of jobs have disappeared, well over a hundred thousand have died any way, and rising every day. And though they don't have much to offer us, they do have resources to go in with hazmat suits and bust some guy for giving IV vitamin C, which may well be helpful, even extremely helpful, according to the many studies linked to in this thread? And according to the Front Line Covid Critical Care(FLCCC) alliance? This is how they want to help us, by preventing the administration of IV vitamin C?

What they should be doing, unless of course they want many thousands of needless deaths, is promoting every doc in the country to be looking into giving their CV-19 or flu or sepsis patients a trial of high dose IV vitamin C, along with their drugs hopefully like methylprednisolone, as well as making sure their blood levels of vitamin D are at least 30 ng/ml. But no, they are not doing that, are they? In fact, they are not even going to mention it, it's almost like they want it to remain a big secret. A concept that might be bolstered by the fact that what they will do is bust some guy who is actually giving the IV vitamin C. Which if that is what he was actually busted for, and not something else(but promoting IV vitamin C seems to be the main publicized reason), that means they have probably actually hurt some of his patients who would have actually benefited from the IV vitamin C.

Now, I have not read all the details on his case. He may be involved in MC fraud or something else and been breaking some other law. But then again, I know a bunch of folks over the years who were accused of MC fraud, and they did not have guys in hazmat suits raid their offices or their practice shut down, they were simply required to legally defend themselves(in court). And, after all, whatever other back up reasons they may or may not have had, the headline reason for the bust was IV vitamin C being given for CV-19 related reasons. And IF that is the case, the main reason, then shame on them, shame on our government for not only ignoring several non prescription approaches that might help, but actually trying to stop the use of these cheap, readily available, very low side effect, non prescription substances that most likely help a lot. In fact, whatever the true reason for this bust, shame on them anyway for stubbornly ignoring all the many studies on the many cheap substances that probably help. Even including certain cheap prescription drugs like methylprednisolone( especially when used with IV vitamin C), and hydroxychloroquine( especially when used with zinc, like you know who did).
Posted 7/22/2020 11:22 PM (GMT 0)
People pushing scam treatments for diseases need to be arrested, tried, and sent to prison. They are the worst of the worst sort of bottom feeders.
Posted 7/23/2020 12:14 AM (GMT 0)

Buddy Blank said...
People pushing scam treatments for diseases need to be arrested, tried, and sent to prison. They are the worst of the worst sort of bottom feeders.

hell yes. next thing you know someone will be promoting shooting up disinfectants
Posted 7/23/2020 5:04 AM (GMT 0)

Buddy Blank said...
People pushing scam treatments for diseases need to be arrested, tried, and sent to prison. They are the worst of the worst sort of bottom feeders.

Buddy, which scam treatments are you referring to? IV vitamin C for CV-19, which I first leaned about some were doing from you? When you notified me that several hospitals in NYC were doing this several months back?

Post Edited (BillyBob@388) : 7/22/2020 11:20:50 PM (GMT-6)

Posted 7/23/2020 5:13 AM (GMT 0)

F8 said...

Buddy Blank said...
People pushing scam treatments for diseases need to be arrested, tried, and sent to prison. They are the worst of the worst sort of bottom feeders.

hell yes. next thing you know someone will be promoting shooting up disinfectants


.............................................................................................................................................................................................
F8, who are you referring to, did someone do that? The same guy( or at least his doctor was) who was smart enough to take zinc along with hydroxycholoroquine? Or at least so far that appears smart, we will see some day. Are you referring to this?

Never mind, I can't get the link to work.

Maybe this one, on a similar topic, will work:
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2020/05/02/fact-check-covid-19-uv-light-treatment-research-underway-los-angeles/3053177001/

I have several more links, but I am afraid this is taking this thread too close to politics. My only concern in this thread is why IV vitamin C, which is being used by at least a few prominent critical care docs, is not being mentioned to our docs by our authorities. This is ridiculous, or a lot worse. https://covid19criticalcare.com/

Post Edited (BillyBob@388) : 7/22/2020 11:38:53 PM (GMT-6)

Posted 7/24/2020 2:29 PM (GMT 0)
I do not want to start yet another thread on CV-19, so I will just add this new one here to my IV Vitamin C thread. And, after all, this might be yet one more reason for our doctors- as same doctors already are- to look into the vitamin C approach, so maybe not to far off topic. Because, as every one knows, helpful or not (and it certainly appears it is helpful in a big way), at least no serious side effects, over many years of studies, have been reported with IV vitamin C. but it appears there are major questions regarding Remdesivir and serious side effects.

I wish it wasn't so, because even at over $3K per pop, I would love for a drug to appear which was really helpful against all of these deaths. Of course, I have been touting a dirt cheap drug/vitamin combo in this thread which certainly appears to be very helpful with little to no harm, but it obviously generates little interest, unlike this 3 thousand $ drug. But hey, whatever, if it works and is relatively safe, I say bring it on, whatever the cost.

But, it appears as though the safety of Remesdesivir is in question. This is a very small study(N5), so we can hope that it was just some kind of severe bad luck of the draw, and that larger studies will have much lower % of SE. But though they did see some reduction in viral load "from upper respiratory tract was observed in most cases", still "two died with active SARS-CoV-2 replication in the lower respiratory tract.". Also, "Plasma samples were positive for SARS-CoV-2 in only one patient.". I don't know, I assume that is better than normal?

But despite some significant benefit at lowering viral load at least in the upper respiratory tract, the study had to be stopped due to severe SEs in 4 of 5 patients. "Remdesivir was interrupted for side effects among four patients, including 2 ALT elevations (3 to 5 N) and 2 renal failures requiring renal replacement.".

So, this was pretty bad, but here's hoping it was just bad luck on the patients they selected for this study, and they just happened to get 4 out of 5 who were going to nave these problems any way. It is possible. And, wouldn't renal failure be a problem with most folks dying from sepsis, which is multiple organ failure? Still, a major red flag, since as far as I can tell they seem to be relating the problems to the drug, otherwise why would they need to stop the study?

Of course, as for me, obviously I don't want the Remdesivir, I just want the IV vitamin C plus methylprednisolone. Since Dr. Marik first took a wild gamble on adding the vitamin C back in 2017, deaths from sepsis(the main final cause of death wit CV-19), at least for practitioners using this approach, have been slashed. But for the majority who will never consider such an approach, I still hold out hope for the Remdesivir.


https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/s1201971220305282
Posted 7/24/2020 2:49 PM (GMT 0)
Oh, BTW, that reduced price (so that every one can have access ) for Remdesivir? It turns out you and I have already funded the cost of development of this drug:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2020/05/26/remdesivir-coronavirus-taxpayers/
"Business
Taxpayers paid to develop remdesivir but will have no say when Gilead sets the price

To make progress, Gilead needed help from U.S. taxpayers. Lots of help. Three federal health agencies were deeply involved in remdesivir’s development every step of the way, providing tens of millions of dollars of government research support. Now that big government role has set up a political showdown over pricing and access.

Despite the heavy subsidies, federal agencies have not asserted patent rights to Gilead’s drug, potentially a blockbuster therapy worth billions of dollars. That means Gilead will have few constraints other than political pressure when it sets a price in coming weeks......................................."
Posted 9/15/2020 7:52 PM (GMT 0)
This is from back in April, so I sure wish I could find an update:
https://www.click2houston.com/health/2020/04/17/local-hospital-using-experimental-drug-treatment-in-hopes-of-saving-lives-of-covid-19-patients/
"One top doctor at at United Memorial Medical Center said a cocktail of drugs used in the past to treat major infections is proving 100% success with his COVID-19 patients

That treatment is a combination of cortizone, large doses of vitamin C and a blood thinner. Dr. Joseph Varon says it shows great promises for treating COVID-19.

“To date, we have 0% mortality at United Memorial Medical Center. Zero percent. I know it’s too good for people to believe in this but it’s working," Dr. Varon said.

The drug protocol isn’t new. He said it’s been used for years to treat cases of sepsis.

Currently, a dozen patients are being treated with it at his hospital. He said 20 others have been treated and released...........................
One of the patients treated was Missouri City Councilman Jeff Boney, who spent seven days in ICU due to COVID-19, but was released April 5.

“All I can do is look at the fact that I’m standing here right now and feeling very well and knowing how I felt before I entered into ICU, his regime, what they did for me and the doctors and the medical staff did for me worked for me,” Boney said.

Dr. Varon admits the treatment is still scientifically unproven, much like hydroxychloroquine, the malaria drug touted as a game changer by President Donald Trump.

But Dr. Varon is collecting data along with other doctors who are using the same treatment.

“I am hoping that other people have the same result that we have. We have a consortium of five intensive care doctors across the united states that are using this same protocol and we all have very similar results,” Dr. Varon said.

Larger, longer, double blind studies will be required to determine if the treatment is safe and effective for everyone or to see if it has unknown side effects.

But Dr. Varon compares the current crisis to being at war as casualties mount daily.

“Yes there is a need to do a study and all the things that people say. But at this time, if I see that something is working I’m not going to let my patients die,” he said.

Dr. Varon said the national Coronavirus Task Force, under the command of Vice President Mike Pence, has contacted him and currently examining his data."
Posted 9/17/2020 11:55 PM (GMT 0)
BB
I was going to post how nice it was to see your vit d post go on for 6 pages and how much this place has changed, for the better. But I see its locked, with no explanation.
Posted 9/18/2020 12:10 AM (GMT 0)

NotBubba said...
BB
I was going to post how nice it was to see your vit d post go on for 6 pages and how much this place has changed, for the better. But I see its locked, with no explanation.

Yes, I was quite surprised at that also, especially considering I had just put someone on ignore which had led to, at least for me, a couple of peaceful days. But maybe something else was going on behind the scenes which I was not even seeing, and that got it closed? I have no idea. What is funny is I went to that page to post some newly available info( edit, which I have now posted in this thread, hope that is OK), a video from a British doc discussing the most recent randomized trial on D ans it's spectacular results, and saying "why the heck are people not acting on this knowledge, on this mass of new studies?". I went to post it, thinking there had been no battles in a day or two and how nice that was, but surprise! It's closed.

Oh well, I guess that is how it goes. Like you said, it went for 6 pages and several months without being closed, probably a record for either a thread of mine or a thread on vitamin D and such. I think it stayed peaceful most of that time.

Well, maybe this one can stay open for a while longer, but Vitamin C is about as dangerous for an area of discussion as as D is, for some bizarre reason. So it is probably on thin ice as well.

Post Edited (BillyBob@388) : 9/18/2020 6:59:49 AM (GMT-6)

Posted 9/18/2020 2:48 AM (GMT 0)
Li Meng-Yan feels your pain. :^)
Posted 9/18/2020 4:48 AM (GMT 0)

TJ123 said...
Li Meng-Yan feels your pain. :^)

HA! Well, good to know.

OK, I don't know if this will get this thread closed or not, because I don't really know what got my D thread closed after things had cooled down a bit, seemed to me. I pray not. However, in that thread I think C did come up once or twice. So maybe I can do some D in my C thread?

Anyway, here goes. First, one of the last links discussed in that thread was a trial of some different forms of D, with rather spectacular results. One form was calcifidiol. This video does a good job of explaining what that is exactly. Turns out, taking regular D3, takes a while for it to be converted into the needed calcifidiol, like a week to get levels built up. Since they were administering D to patients as soon as they were admitted to the hospital, they wanted to skip the wait and get right to the calcifidiol part, so that is what they gave.

As he says about the results, " when I read them, I was taken aback". Indeed! 2 % of the D group admitted to intensive care, vs 50% in the control group. He sounds like me when he asks "So would you like a 2% chance of being admitted to intensive care, or a 50% chance?". And zero deaths in the 50 treated patient vs 2 deaths in the 26 untreated patients. Pretty astounding, with a P value of <0.001, 1 in a thousand odds of the findings being by chance. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8ks9fuh2k8 He expresses frustration that this and the previous data is not being paid attention to. Me too.

We previously found out that Dr. Fauci has been supplementing with D and C. In this video, the same Ph.D. from the first video tries to contact Fauci to ask "how much". And he actually gets an answer thru an intermediary, 6000 IU/day. So if it is good enough for Fauci, maybe it is good enough for me. Now, to get him to announce it to the general public at a press conference! YES!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqzlmolvhgk

Missing Key Value : en-US, 736

Posted 9/18/2020 12:32 PM (GMT 0)
Keep up the good work BillyBob. Appreciate it.
Posted 9/18/2020 1:59 PM (GMT 0)
I added extra Vitamin D months ago based on the info BillyBob has been posting. Now that daylight is shrinking rapidly for us in the northern hemisphere, I will certainly continue that course of action.
Posted 9/18/2020 2:52 PM (GMT 0)
I posted information about Dr. John Campbell back in March of this year, and information about specifically about vitamin D, on March 9th of this year, with links to the RCTs involving vitamin D, see https://www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=35&m=4185502&p=010#gsc.tab=0

Gear that's solid advice re: vitamin D. A large study, not some web mumbo jumbo but actual science, has proven vitamin D protects against acute respiratory tract infections, whether causes by viruses or bacteria - 70% less.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w5yvgmfivak

https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2017/02/study-confirms-vitamin-d-protects-against-cold-and-flu/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w5yvgmfivak

https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2017/02/study-confirms-vitamin-d-protects-against-cold-and-flu/

Supplementing with vitamin D, if deficient, is what any doctor recommends.
Posted 9/18/2020 5:13 PM (GMT 0)
Billy and Buddy are helping, informing and confusing us....all at the same time ;-)
Posted 9/18/2020 8:56 PM (GMT 0)
"Dr Fauci says bars and restaurants should be closed after CDC report revealed Americans who dined out are TWICE as likely to test positive for COVID-19"
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-8747963/dr-fauci-says-bars-restaurants-stay-closed.html

If we had had a true lockdown, like China did, we'd be over this by now.
Posted 9/19/2020 7:36 PM (GMT 0)

Buddy Blank said...

If we had had a true lockdown, like China did, we'd be over this by now.

If we lived under a totalitarian dictatorship like China, that might have been possible, and the results would still be questionable.
Posted 9/20/2020 11:22 AM (GMT 0)
Have you ever been to China? It isn't as it is portrayed here, not at all. As far as the results being questionable, I don't know what you mean. China's results? Ours? Both?
Posted 9/20/2020 11:59 AM (GMT 0)
I have low D and have been supplementing for years. Based on all the recent hype for D, I figured there would be a rush on it and the shelves would be cleared ..... like TP.!

Didn’t happen .... guess TP is essential and D is ..... well D.

Anyhow, I have a two year supply ..... what’s the shelf life?
Posted 9/20/2020 12:26 PM (GMT 0)

RCS said...
I have low D and have been supplementing for years. Based on all the recent hype for D, I figured there would be a rush on it and the shelves would be cleared ..... like TP.!

Didn’t happen .... guess TP is essential and D is ..... well D.

Anyhow, I have a two year supply ..... what’s the shelf life?

I'm seeing 4-5 yrs minimum for D3

Djin
Posted 9/20/2020 1:00 PM (GMT 0)

DjinTonic said...

RCS said...
I have low D and have been supplementing for years. Based on all the recent hype for D, I figured there would be a rush on it and the shelves would be cleared ..... like TP.!

Didn’t happen .... guess TP is essential and D is ..... well D.

Anyhow, I have a two year supply ..... what’s the shelf life?

I'm seeing 4-5 yrs minimum for D3

Djin


..................................................................................................................

There was, however, a run on C. I ran out and went down to WM to get some, and the shelves were bare. Went immediately over to Walgreens and bought the last bottle they had. I think the same for zinc. But as you said, not D. Which, I suspect, shows there was a difference in news coverage of the studies, as well as the numbers of studies themselves.

Although I have seen very few completed studies on C vs CV-19 or anything else, there was some mainstream news very early on that some NY hospitals were giving "high dose" IV Vitamin C, at least in a few newspapers. Although what they called "high dose" was only 6 grams, when real high dose IV C would be more like 20 to 100 grams. And never any word about if that helped or not. But, perhaps that news was just enough for word to get out? And of course the president admitted at a press conference that drug PLUS zinc. And I was amazed to fairly quickly find both C and Z were mostly gone, for a while.

Conversely, for whatever reason, unlike C or zinc, this thread(EDIT: I mean the current Vitamin D/Easy money thread) shows there have been a boat load of studies on D vs CV-19, which have all so far been positive. And yet, from the press, as far as I can tell, crickets. And, I tell plenty of folks I know about this info. I don't think there has ever been one that said "Oh yes, I heard that or read that in the news." Or anywhere else. So maybe that is why no run on D? Just a wild guess.

Post Edited (BillyBob@388) : 9/20/2020 8:41:24 AM (GMT-6)

Posted 9/20/2020 1:30 PM (GMT 0)
There was actually a news segment on Friday, on one of the local NYC network news shows on D. It cited a study showing that a cohort with Vitamin D deficiencies was 54% more likely to be infected with Covid-19.
I wish i had a link to or knowledge of the specific study, unfortunately i dont. But thats a pretty stunning number.
ABC News, credible source.
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