Benign Tissue, PSA and Me- update

Got my latest PSA test. The Radiation Onc.'s theory is that some percentage of post-RP men will have benign tissue remaining that will continue to produce small amounts of PSA as the blood supply regrows and starts feeding. I have been following the modified Meyers Cancer Light supplement plan since last Nov., was thinking that it was showing results. Now I don't know what it is showing......At least it is a GS6, that's at least less worrying than one higher. I was hoping that it would level off, but it appears that I still have a very slow increase, but it is a darn increase........ or not, the next one or two should tell....Test again in Feb.



08/00 3.9
08/01 4.8
11/01 4.1
01/03 3.9
01/04 4.1
01/05 4.2
01/06 5.2
06/06 4.2
04/07 7.6
3 weeks Cipro antibiotics, retested
06/07 6.7

Biopsy- 3 of 16, 5% of each core GS6
open RRP GS6, probable microscopic involvement of the left apical margin
pT2c


10/07 .04
02/08 .008
10/08 .02
05/09 .03
10/09 .04
04/10 .06
08/10 .09
12/10 .09
05/11 .08
10/11 .14
01/12 .10
07/12 .13
11/12 .16
02/13 .21
Here's a little more info to reveal:
In 12/11, I began using 538 mg. Life Science POM extract capsule daily
In 02/12, I added 1000mg resveratrol, 1000 iu Vit D3, 700mg curcumin, and 1200 mg Lecithin to the pom , 2000 mg fish oil. This is very close to Dr. Snuffy Myers's latest "Lite" supplement list. I've also altered my diet, but not by much, more to offset high blood sugar and triglycerates, losing 17 lbs in the process.My doc. also started me on 500 mg. twice daily of metformin (didn't we read something lately about how that might help combat PCa?) for 6 months to see how that goes. The daily exercise plan continues, also.

So the waiting and testing continues. So far, so good. I know there's at least 2 other guys here who are sorta matching me as far as the 'rise in psa, then level off below the radiation trigger level", so maybe between the 3 of us, we can gather some informal info about it. Benign tissue theory? The jury's still out,

02/13: nothing changed in the plan, watching continues. Maybe will add Proscar at the next rise to see what happens.

James:

I have been sending healing thoughts your way.  Although your increase was small, I know it is very stressful and not what any of us hope for.  The nurse at my Dad's surgeon's office (a very skilled surgeon at City of Hope), explained to us that he has patients who rise some time after surgery, and then stabilize (and at higher levels than yours).  I am not sure how many men, nor at what level  (Now is probably a good time for me to call back and get more details - there IS comfort in numbers).  Just a thought, but have you considered running another psa just to confirm and rule out any lab error?   Surely, the laboratories recognize that life altering decisions are made based on ultrasensitive PSAs in the hundredth place?

Would you mind elaborating on the details of your "modified Myers Cancer Light supplement plan" you are using for growth arrest?  My dad is in a very similar place to you, with a psa= .09 almost 5 years from surgery for a gleason 3+4 "organ confined" tumor, and post surgical PSAs <.01 for 20 months.   Also, do you see Dr. Myers, or follow his plan through another doc?  If you see Dr. Myers, did he discuss about how many men with similar pc characteristics he has stabilized with this program (again, comfort in numbers)?  Trying to avoid additional treatments for as long as possible (forever, would be a dream!).

Thanks for any input/information you are able to provide.  And, Happy Thanksgiving!

Thanks for the information.  Add my dad to the "below the trigger point" post surgical psa group to keep close tabs on.  This category of men, those who received prior primary curative treatment with slowly rising and still low PSAs,  is difficult to find and don't seem to be a focal point for doctors in the conventional world of medicine.   It seems obvious that implementing  a growth arrest program to delay or even avoid (halleluiah) further treatment is a no-brainer, and the sooner in the game, the better!

 A few more questions for you... 

1)  Did you have your DHT levels checked, and are you on Avodart?  Avodart is only used if your DHT is above a certain level (I believe there are other posts on this forum with more detailed DHT information).   This seems to be a critical component of Dr. Myers growth arrest program based on individual DHT levels.   I believe Dr. Mark Scholz, another very well-respected prostate oncologist, uses Avodart as well.

2)   Are you taking 200 mg soy isoflavones?  I noticed this supplement is a part of Dr. Myers protocol, as well.

 Also,  Dr. Aaron Katz, urologist from Columbia University,  uses GCP (genistein, soy isoflavones) as part of his protocol to slow and stabilize psa numbers.  I have talked to Patricia Masoodi from Pulse Nutritionals,  who consults with Dr. Katz and many other PC professionals.  She sells a product called Genikinoko, which is a fermented non-gmo soy product from Japan.  It is quite expensive, but she has apparently seen good results in many men with whom she consults.  She is available by phone to chat.  A very knowledgable and amazing woman, I must say.  I was doubtful before I called her because she is selling something.  However, as soon as she started talking, I realized that her level of knowedge is pretty extensive, as is her connection with healthcare professionals in the PC field.  She is passionate about what she does, and clearly feels a calling to help men with this dreaded disease.  Also, a prostate support group  in Poughkipsie (sp?) undertook a little study of their own using the Genikinoko, and some of the men in this small cohort saw a decline/stabilizaion in their PSAs.    I don't know what concurrent treatment they were receiving, and as I said, Genikinoko is expensive, so I think the study was short-lived. Of course, little formal research has been done, so it is difficult to ascertain exactly how many men out there are using this approach, and exactly what kind of response is being attained. If one can afford it, it is probably worth a try at this stage.  If not Genikinoko, then there are more affordable soy isoflavone supplements out there.  In my opinion, Life Extension Foundation have high-quality products, and their annual sale is currently in progress. 

I have done countless hours of research on PC, from both the conventional and naturopathic perspective.  We are incorporating both in my dad's journey with this dreaded disease.  I will not give up hope that we can stabilize my dad's disease, without altering his quality of life.  My dad is just now starting the Genikinoko product in addition to several other supplements he has been taking to support his overall health, so we will need at least 3 to 6 months to see if it stabilizes or even lowers his psa. 

Keep up the fight!  May God Bless all of you amazing men, and the women who stand by your sides.  Happy Thanksgiving.

I just want to be freely...

-Laughing Again

Well Said, Casey 59!

-LaughingAgain

James C. - where did you find the Meyers' "lite" list? I looked in his book "Beating Prostate Cancer" and the list there (p 147) is very different from the list you mentioned. Thanks,

I'm also taking metformin 1 and a half of 500 mg per day. Getting a little constipation. (There are 40 clinical trials of metformin going on now.)
I hope your program stabilizes your condition.

James C. :

I want to be sure I understand you correctly. Are you saying that the "benign tissue" that may remain after RP is tissue from the prostate that wasn't completely removed ??? Thanks in advance.

Hi James,

I posed a similar theory to my docs after rising PSA following RT and HT. My theory was that healthy prostate cells are not destroyed by radiation and have the ability to rebuild. My PSA got up to 2+ and was rising quite rapidly. My rad onc and uro both said that they did not think the rise was due to benign prostate tissue that had repaired itself. I suppose the only way to know is to do another biopsy or try the newer C11 Choline scan. I am looking at the later but will not be able to do this until after the new year.

But I like your theory.

Don

James, I think you and a couple of others, are in a very tiny club of your own with your numbers. I believe Sephie's husband was in a similar situation, and to this day, still has never needed SRT. I think all you can do is what you have been doing, keeping a close eye on things, yet be prepared to move to the next step, only if proven needed.

Very similar to the club that Sonny, I and a couple of others are in, with our high PSA post surgery and post SRT.

Prostate cancer makes for some strange outcomes for sure. Hope you continue to bite the bullet.

david in sc

James C., are you talking about Dr Myers' "PC Growth Arrest Program" which several HW members are following?

Proscapt:

What psa level does Mark Scholz consider a recurrence of cancer after surgery? 

To Laughingagain:

you asked "What psa level does Mark Scholz consider a recurrence of cancer after surgery? "

I didn't ask him that, exactly, but my inference from our conversation is that he looks at trend as well as at the specific number to make that decision. Is the PSA bouncing around a range of low numbers or is it increasing relatively steadily?

He also said that the PSA rise usually slows after the initial jump off zero (and the research report I posted on another thread confirms this.) I infer that one shouldn't put much stock in the doubling time that would be implied by this initial rise off very low levels.

In addition, he said, drawing the correct conclusion about the PSA rise depends on other factors, too. Consider the set of patients with an ambiguous PSA (on ultrasensitive testing) one that is too high to be clearly benign, but below the threshold of .1 or .2 that most docs will take as proof of recurrence. A patient with a PSA in this ambiguous range (e.g. .04) who has a a higher gleason, worse pathology, and/or earlier rise has greater risk of the rise being caused to a true recurrence, and more likely to have a fast PSADT requiring prompt salvage treatment. In contrast, a patient who has exactly the same PSA but had a later recurrence, a lower gleason, and/or a better pathology has a greater chance that the rise may not prove to be a true recurrence, or if it does, that the PSADT will be long and slow. And therefore, less aggressive treatment may be possible (e.g. Avodart, to slow the rise and delay the need for radiation.) So all these factors are important in deciding whether or how soon to launch into salvage treatment. At least this is my interpretation, and I'm not an MD.

My experience with Scholz has been very positive; he's extremely well-informed, thoughtful, clear, and patient. I thought he had great answers to all of my questions and never felt he was giving me stock answers or rushing me. He does phone consults so I'd advise you to speak with him directly if you have particular questions about your situation, if you can afford it. He, like Myers, treats each case individually, taking into account all the factors, and doesn't limit the decision-making to the standard guidelines.

Post Edited (proscapt) : 11/20/2012 9:55:30 PM (GMT-7)

James - so sorry to hear of the increase - I am betting on it leveling off ( the benign tissue theory) as per the video I saw with Dr. Snuffy Myers at his website .... sincere pom filled hugs,
Bronson