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Does HT kill cancer cells or not?

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Posted 11/25/2012 8:48 PM (GMT 0)
142,

Do you mind if I ask you what drug are you referring to?

I have to admit that I'be only minded the most obvious side effect. All of the other side effects have been very tolerable. What is your worse se?
Posted 11/25/2012 9:05 PM (GMT 0)
Jerry,

I'll shoot you an email about the tests, lest I get dragged up as a heretic.

I'm two months into HT.

- libido is gone.

- I am having memory issues. I can't find simple words to finish sentences. That has been pointed out by folks at work who don't know what is going on, provoking other job-related discussions I did not want to have, and will likely not end well. I have to stop and think about what my password might be for the computer.

- I'm eating less, walking more (5-7 miles a day), and putting on weight by the day (20 pounds in 2 months).

- Hot flashes are constant. I can't get a night's sleep, and have to change the sheets daily because of them. Sitting at the dinner table for Thanksgiving would have been a comedy if it weren't so real.

- I'm suddenly having severe leg cramps. Docs have tested for PAD and thrombosis, all came back ok, so they suspect the Lupron.

And to add insult to injury, my urethral bleeding came back after a hiatus since early September, and I blew a clot to remember on Thanksgiving Day.

Argh.

(typo)

Posted 11/26/2012 2:15 AM (GMT 0)
142,

After all I thought I knew about your journey, didn't realize you had actually started the HT. You are already dealing with all the side effects that my oncologist warned me about, and then some.

I don't think, in the spirit of the origin of this thread, that HT should ever be looked at as a possible curative treatment. For some, it's a time buyer, for those that can keep from becoming refactory quickly.

My oncologist says, of course, if I went on HT, it would drive the PSA number to "undetectable" fast, but it would be misleading, and while the term "masking" may not be technically correct, in some sense, it is masking what is going on with the cancer. The non-responding cancer cells would be busily continuing to grow and expand, while the HT would be killing off others. As soon as you stopped the HT, things would start to rise again, and this is assuming that one doesnt become refactory too soon. That in itself is a crap shoot.

He still feels that if you are dealing with an agressive strand of PC (not simply based on Gleason or PSA), the actual variant so to speak, that the trade off with QOL and other side effects is not always worth it in every case. I am not saying in any sense of the word, that you shouldnt' be on it. That is between you and your medical team alone to make, and its your call, and I respect your personal decision, and hope it works well for you, despite your immediate side effects and QOL issues.

I am speaking in general about HT, and as you well know, my guy is not one for early HT intervention in most cases.

We are all faced with such tough treatment decisions, and its hard when nothing is certain or guaranteed, and results vary all over the spectrum, and outcomes can end up anywhere and everywhere at the same time. We all do the same thing - research it to death, deliberate intensely, and then ultimately, go for some kind of desicion - action or no action at this juncture, and go for it and hope for the best. I don't believe there is any other way.

Feel bad for you. I would not want to deal with the memory issues alone. Like you, I value my mind and ability to think clearly and in great detail. Even though I am no longer able to work, I would not like to have my memory messed with, it would really bother me. This is one reason why I have refused to have my pain meds increased at this time, even though it would be better for me physically, because I don't want to lose that same ability to think and make decisions clearly.

Hope you adjust to the better soon as your proceed with the HT, and more importantly, hope it works well for you.

david in sc
Posted 11/26/2012 12:06 PM (GMT 0)
Ms.WorryWart and Ed you asked,

how do you come to this conclusion? in some cases HT can work many years -- more than 10. you may not get the same results if the cancer has spread to the bones and organs.

I am not saying that one should wait until the cancer has massively spread to react. I do believe in use of every means in order to kill cancer cells, such as targeted radiation to prostate bed or lymph nodes, even the concept of treating with radiation the oligometastatic disease. However, in my research, it shows that every time you introduce a medication, the cancer cell finds a way to outsmart it, this is an evolutionary response of the cancer cell to the pressure applied. Some people indeed do very well on HT, even for 10 years, every time you introduce HT, PSA goes down to 0. And indeed, you are right, it has been shown that patients, for example with 1-2 mets in general respond much longer than someone with extensive mets. What I am saying is that HT should not be started too early, before the evidence of systemic or metastatic disease, because it MAY make CA cells more aggressive, and CRPC MAY evolve sooner. Again, I am not a doctor who sees patients every day, but just want to emhisize that the minute you introduce a medication against PC, cancer will start to find a way around that medication. HT should actually be used with other medications, one in clinical trial is OGX-011, that is aimed to prevent CRPC.
Posted 11/26/2012 1:20 PM (GMT 0)
It is my understanding that relapse rates on other types of cancer, especially breast cancer, have been driven down by judiciously, as appropriate to the specific situation, combining therapies such as surgery, radiation, chemo, and hormone therapy. Not, by using a serial, stepwise approach .. i.e. try one therapy and see if it works, then try the next one, etc.  In those cases, one specific therapy is not enough. It is the combination of those therapies that makes a difference. For prostate cancer, I tend to think of HT that way. Yes, by itself, HT cannot cure. But, for example, there is ample evidence that, when HT is combined with RT, cure rates do improve. As evidenced by my treatment approach, I am a big believer, for high risk cases, of using all the tools up front to better one's odds of a cure. Only time will tell for me.

SC

Posted 11/26/2012 3:25 PM (GMT 0)
 

Special Lady:  I noticed you referenced oligometastatic disease treated with radiation, I am currently down in Sarasota being treated by Dr. Dattoli for that.  I can assure you that he requires HT to be part of the treatment.  I believe that Dr. Meyers and him are the co-authors of the paper addressing oligometastatic disease and prostate cancer, they believe to achieve a long term remission that you need to have the radiation treatment and remain on HT for 1 year because the radiation and the HT combined continue to kill cancer cells in synergy for that period of time.

There may be other doctors who treat for oligometastatic in different ways but I don't know of them.

142:  You might ask your Dr. to put you on estrogen patches, they get rid of the hot flashes quickly and are inexpensive.  Sorry to hear about your SE's.

Good luck

David

Posted 11/26/2012 5:34 PM (GMT 0)
John T
"Liebowitz published data that 93% of his G6 patients were cured with one 13 month course of HT."

I've been intrigued by this ever since I started researching this beast. It's a question I've asked before. "Why isn't it used more on G6 guys?" Temporary side effects, but there has to be a reason that it isn't recommended. :)

142... Sounds like you and my husband share many of the same side effects. Cognitive impairment seems the hardest to handle.

Purg... Interesting, as my husband also worries about the "masking."

SpecialLady... Thanks for the reply. Makes sense.

Southern Comfort... Agreed. We believe in the same approach. And, as you, only time will tell if the right decision was made.
Posted 11/26/2012 6:34 PM (GMT 0)
Have a friend whom did the Leibowitz 13 month program, his start was 1996 and rebiopsied now 3 times over the years, last one by Dr. Lee with color doppler ultrasound guided, even though targeted red suspecious areas, no PCa was found at this time. He did not other protocols and resumed the ADT3 a second round like 2 years ago and then quit and staying on proscar for maintenance. His Dx. psa originally was 11.0 2 cores found (2+3)=5 back then, today those are Gleason 6's....his results are very interesting and he is a happy guy.
Posted 12/2/2012 5:40 PM (GMT 0)
For those of you who were following this thread, I started a new thread with a related question.
Does Adjuvant HT Kill Cancer Cells?
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