Gat Goren Method, Part 3

All you lurkers out there:

I hope none of you are starting iodine supplementation based solely on what you've overheard on this forum! The RDA of iodine is 150 micrograms for adult men (http://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/Iodine-HealthProfessional/). We are talking about supplementation is 30 times greater or 100 times greater than the RDA. Please realize this. And please find an experienced health-care provider to guide you through the maze of doses and supplements such as are discussed on the Curezone Iodine Supplementation forum.

I for one understand the risks, have done a LOT of research on the Internet, and have found someone to watch that I don't get into trouble. She ordered up an iodine panel (TSH, T3, T4, etc.) last week to monitor me. I am taking appropriate precautions for my own case.

Thunder:

It seems like you're making progress, and you have been given to understand that it will take three months for the unused veins to be absorbed. I think it would be fine for you take iodine. If you're deficient, it should help you immediately. If you're not deficient, it might still help provided that you take the recommended supplements and don't overdo the dosage. I tend to agree that the US RDA is way too low anyway.

BTW: For every theory about iodine, there seems to be an equal and opposite counter-theory. People should not make the mistake of basing their dosing regimens on mere "theories".

The Gat-Goren procedure has an elegantly elaborated and internally consistent theory to explain it. Iodine supplementation has a dozen theories.

I would also strongly recommend that you check your nutritional status on your other vitamins, too. I always recommend that my friends get a blood test for Vitamin D--your doctor can order it. Vitamin D has hormonal-like effects on many of the tissues of the body. I think it would be a nice complement to iodine, Vitamin C, the B vitamins and the fat soluble vitamins.

Your body is healing itself; just give it the time and materials it needs. It was interesting that your TCM doctor did not want to interfere with the healing process.

I'm skeptical that an anti-inflammatory diet could slow down the healing process--as long as you're taking the vitamins, minerals and macronutrients that you need. If this diet is deficient in protein or fat, well, that could be a problem.

I was on a powerful alpha-blocker (Rapaflo) for almost two years after my procedure. This drug is often used to treat prosta***. As is terazosin, which is cheaper and not as powerful (with fewer side effects). (I seem to remember that you said that this class of drugs didn't help you.)

So try iodine. And the other nutrients.

I always look forward to reading your weekly updates!

-dave

Post Edited (Chicago Dave) : 9/17/2013 7:05:45 AM (GMT-6)

Hi Dave, Martin and Thunder,

I have a multivitamin "Blue Bonnet Maxi One" that has 150mcg of iodine, plus selenium, and lots of C, D, and B among other things. I am going to try taking two a day for a week and see if the 300mcg of iodine makes any difference.

I read an article that says more than 8 million women and 1 to 3 million men have bladder/urinary symptoms that have no infection or any other identifiable causes. It has the doctors stumped. That's the gist of it, but here's the link.

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2013-02-20/health/sc-health-0220-bladder-pain-20130220_1_interstitial-cystitis-bladder-pain-utis

The one cause for which there is very little written (and urologists seem to be blind to) is the possibility of problems with the nerves that control the sphincters and bladder (which was one of the possible causes of non-bacterial prostatitis on Martin's list).

My most troubling symptom is having severe urgency in the evening or the middle of the night, and being unable to get a stream going for several minutes, while being in pain that travels all through my urethra, bladder and anus, until I finish urinating. I can deal with the frequency and urgency, but the retention and pain can get maddening. Its the main reason I got the GL laser which removed more than half my prostate, and that only helped for six months.
But that's about how long it takes for nerves to regenerate.

I wish there was more info on neurologists getting involved in this area. For one thing it would explain why symptoms come and go (often on the same day, often changing every day at certain times). If any of the other things were to blame, there should be some consistency of symptoms over time.

I am also active on the ic-network forum at
http://www.ic-network.com/
and the the symptoms posted by men diagnosed with non-bacterial prostatitis (and many men and women diagnosed with interstital cystitis) are very similar. I get a very strong feeling that the non-bacterial prosta*** diagnosis is just another way of urologists saying "we don't know what's causing it but you have it".

Bob,

I have been observing my symptoms closely - I also suffer from intra-day variations in the strength of my urination. It does not seem to be related to structural issues, since it is not consistent.

But I think it MUST have something to do with circulation, because of the following observation I have, I invite anyone to hypothesize why this is happening:
1) BEFORE I had Gat-Goren procedure to seal the internal-spermatic veins, prolonged sitting will make my urination slow to start and thin stream at the end. If I lie down for an hour or two, this goes away.
2) AFTER I had Gat-Goren procedure that sealed the internal-spermatic vein network, if I lie down on a soft surface for a long time, my urine gets worse, but if I sit all day, the symptoms are better.

So why is the situation reversed? I have this theory:
Before GG the internal spermatic vein network while sitting in an upright position, will create downward pressure, causing backflow and the "alternative route" of drainage cannot cope with this pressure. But when you lie down, the internal spermatic veins are still there, so the drainage is actually better because you have both the internal spermatic veins and the "alternate route" that drains the area.

After GG: now when sitting up, there is no more downward pressure, and the alternate route the body developed will drain optimally. But when I lie down, the internal spermatic veins are already blocked, and the body's alternate route of drainage is not optimized for this state because our body is very very smart and developed alternate drainage optimized for the upright position. Why? Because the drainage was only faulty before when we were upright, so the body developed routes based on that state. It has not yet developed the alternate to drain optimally for lying down yet - because before the procedure we could still depend on the internal spermatic veins to drain.

I have noticed - without any fluctuation- that my scrotal varicocele is better when I sit all day, and worse if I lie down. This is the exact OPPOSITE of pre-GG, but is explanable by the way drainage systems work.

If my hypothesis is correct then I believe after a couple of months, the network will have optimized itself for the lying down position too - and I will not have any scrotal discomfort anymore even if I lie down too long.

Bob_NJ said...
Hi Dave, Martin and Thunder,

I have a multivitamin "Blue Bonnet Maxi One" that has 150mcg of iodine, plus selenium, and lots of C, D, and B among other things. I am going to try taking two a day for a week and see if the 300mcg of iodine makes any difference.

I read an article that says more than 8 million women and 1 to 3 million men have bladder/urinary symptoms that have no infection or any other identifiable causes. It has the doctors stumped. That's the gist of it, but here's the link.

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2013-02-20/health/sc-health-0220-bladder-pain-20130220_1_interstitial-cystitis-bladder-pain-utis

The one cause for which there is very little written (and urologists seem to be blind to) is the possibility of problems with the nerves that control the sphincters and bladder (which was one of the possible causes of non-bacterial prostatitis on Martin's list).

My most troubling symptom is having severe urgency in the evening or the middle of the night, and being unable to get a stream going for several minutes, while being in pain that travels all through my urethra, bladder and anus, until I finish urinating. I can deal with the frequency and urgency, but the retention and pain can get maddening. Its the main reason I got the GL laser which removed more than half my prostate, and that only helped for six months.
But that's about how long it takes for nerves to regenerate.

I wish there was more info on neurologists getting involved in this area. For one thing it would explain why symptoms come and go (often on the same day, often changing every day at certain times). If any of the other things were to blame, there should be some consistency of symptoms over time.

I am also active on the ic-network forum at
http://www.ic-network.com/
and the the symptoms posted by men diagnosed with non-bacterial prostatitis (and many men and women diagnosed with interstital cystitis) are very similar. I get a very strong feeling that the non-bacterial prosta*** diagnosis is just another way of urologists saying "we don't know what's causing it but you have it".

Gregg: If you give me your email address, you can contact me privately. Regarding hemorrhoids. I found this tidbit from Jonathan Wright, MD who is a respected authority on alternative medicine: (Note: be careful on using Lugols solution or any iodine on delicate areas..start with a low dose)

"My Colleague Richard Kunin, M.D. of San Francisco, is a "world class" expert on the use of SSKI and other forms of iodine. He has found that hemorrhoids will sometimes disappear literally overnight, when SSKI (20 drops) mixed with flaxseed oil (1 ounce) is rubbed in them at bedtime. He's also found that SSKI alone will do the same job, although it "really stings" when applied to a hemorrhoid by itself."

http://tahomaclinicblog.com/iodide/

I would check out the North American Chinese Medicine Hemorrhoid Treatment Center in Markham, Toronto and Vancouver Canada. They have an excellent record of curing hemorrhoids, fissures, fistillas, anal polyps and assorted rectal problems without surgery. You can get much information from this website, but I suspect there are some people who post who are out to undermine this great group of doctors. How sad!

http://www.steadyhealth.com/My_Hemorrhoid_cure____No_surgery__no_pain__no_scaring_t220789.html

I would venture that many BPH patients have hemorrhoids from straining to release urine at night.

Random thoughts from a random mind...

#1 It annoys me that Dr. Gat doesn't answer my emails. But oh, well.

#2 For those guys waiting for their GG procedures to fully kick in, how about Glycine, Alanine and Glutamic Acid for symptomatic relief of prostat*** symptoms? I always love hearing about *empirically* successful treatments, even those that work mysteriously. And Martin sometimes likes to theorize about how they work.

I heard of this treatment 20 years ago, and apparently it goes back much further, to 1958. It has an interesting history:

QUOTE:
"The value of the Glycine-Alanine-Glutamic Acid mixture for relief of symptoms of benign prostatic hypertrophy was suggested by a chance observation made by one of us (J.C.G.)(1) and an associate. A group of allergic patients were being given an amino acid mixture and during the course of treatment one of the patients volunteered the information that all of his urinary symptoms had disappeared. This led to a trial of that particular amino acid mixture in non-allergic patients with urinary symptoms. Patients with enlarged prostates and associated urinary symptoms experienced prompt and rather spectacular relief of their symptoms. A number of these patients have been observed over a prolonged period of time. They remain symptom free while taking the medication, but soon after discontinuing it the symptoms of urgency, nocturia, etc., returned. This has been the experience of several physicians who have tried the amino acid treatment at our suggestion."
UNQUOTE

http://prostex.com/feinblatt-bph-article/

Full disclosure: Twenty years ago I tried tried these amino acids--purchased separately at a health food store--and did *not* notice any improvement. But I personally never got any relief from *any* herbs, supplements or drugs, except high-dose cranberry concentrates and alpha blockers. Still, it might be worth a try considering the low downside risk.

And you know how much I *love* supplements and procedures with low downside risk!

#3 An anonymous reader from Mexico alerted me to a new medical device for BPH. Called TIND and manufactured in Israel, it is available to patients now in Europe. The urologist inserts this funny-looking thing in the urethra and lets it expand and press against the prostate for five days. The benefits last for years--supposedly. I'm thinking that it might offer GG patients some benefit in cases of pinched urethras. But I wouldn't expect it to help guys who have an enlarged prostate lobe pressing on the bladder rather than the urethra.

Check out the photo. It looks like the creepy tracking device from the movie The Matrix. You remember it--the spider-like device that the Agents planted in Neo's chest:
VIEW IMAGE

http://www.medi-tate.com/

QUOTE:
"TIND presents a viable alternative to surgery for patients suffering from an enlarged prostate caused by BPH (Benign Prostatic Hyperplasia). The TIND device, currently available only in Europe. The TIND is placed in the area in which the prostate has blocked the urethra, causing BPH symptoms by obstructing the flow of urine.

"The device is deployed in a very simple minimally invasive procedure at a urologist’s clinic. TIND insertion takes just 5 minutes, after which you can go home. There are no catheters, no bleeding and you are able to go back to your normal activities fast. While the device is left in your body for 5 days, your lifestyle will not be affected.

"How does TIND work?

"The device starts working immediately after deployment by exerting pressure on the prostate urethra tissue from the inside, reshaping the prostatic urethra and helping clear the path for the flow of urine. The great advantage of the device is that it was designed to leave your sperm ducts intact, which reduces the chance of any sexual dysfunction (predominantly retrograde ejaculation).

"After 5 days in the body, the device is removed in a quick process that takes just minutes. You will notice that your BPH symptoms have significantly decreased. Results will continue to improve over the course of 3 months, and you will enjoy them well into the future."
UNQUOTE

Not all guys with BPH will qualify for treatment:
QUOTE:
"However if you have any of the following, you are not a candidate for TIND: urethral stricture, an active urinary tract infection, suspected or proven prostate cancer or underwent interventional prostate treatment in the past."
UNQUOTE

#4 Thunder: I take it as a good sign that there are *differences* in your symptoms before-and-after GG. You've even noticed a little improvement already.

True, I thought you'd have more improvement by this time, but give the body time to heal itself. My own progress came much slower than expected, too. Dr. Gat had promised me improvement by six months after treatment, but it actually took almost two years for me to get good results.

-dave

Thunder,

What a great, detailed report and theory about pre- and post- procedure effects!  I've been wondering about that all this time (I'm now around 3 weeks post-NON-GG-right-side-only ISV embolization, currently zero symptoms after one short setback.)  I could only add that I hope that between sleep time and awake time, we have enough lying, sitting, and standing that the body would optimize towards the general scenario.

What puzzled me (until I digested your post) is the fact that I feel like I might now have an internal hemorrhoid. I considered the idea that my body is rerouting the venous drainage, and maybe some of the blood makes its way to the rectal area?  I don't know ...

Dave, the right-side ISV is sealed up for its entire length, almost chock-full of coils.  According to the Doctor, and whatever I could dig up on the internet, there's very little chance of them moving around.  They are coated with some kind of chemical that promotes clotting.  Not "glue," to be sure, but from what I can tell, this isn't as much of a worry as it was in the early days of this procedure.

I go back on Wednesday the 25th to have the left side done.

Bob: Can you find a qualified "natural"-oriented MD (or other health provider) to help you look into natural alternatives? I read about natural alternatives to hypertensives the other day, but didn't pay much attention. 300 micrograms of iodine would normally be a small dose (in the absence of interacting drugs). You had some initial improvement, but it's not clear what caused this. It might have been the heating pad, cutting back on alcohol--that should help!--, or adequate doses of the two dozen vitamins and minerals in your multi-vitamins. Hard to tell what caused what.

robc: I think you're on track. I'll keep my fingers crossed for you.

Dave,

Coils are foreign objects that stay inside your body forever. They can even trigger metal detectors if there are enough of them inside you. If the treatment outcome is the same, then using something less "invasive" even if intervention radiology is already not that invasive compared to surgery, is probably preferred.

At least, that's how I tend to view it. Plus I think coils had a bad reputation from before when they used to get loose and end up in people's hearts, lungs, and brains. But since robc mentioned they are specially coated, then that chance is almost non-existent so I guess they are as good as scleroizing agents...

Martin - this is interesting because Germany is huge in alternative medicine - in fact the status of alternative doctors vs traditional doctors are almost equal there. This thing looks pretty legit.

martin victor said...
Here's a pharmaceutical product called Prostalin that uses iodine suppositories to treat BPH and inflammation. It is made in Germany...

http://www.pharco.com.eg/pharcoindex/urogenital/Prostalin.htm

composition:
Each suppository contains:
Lchthammol 0.15 g
Potassium iodide 0.10 g
Hamamelis extract 0.10 g

properties:
Prostalin Suppositories contain three active ingredients specifically combined to provide astringent and antiseptic actions. lchthammol is well known for its antiseptic properties. Hamamelis extract, due to its contents of tannins and gallic acid, induces a potent astringent effect. These actions, assisted by potassium iodide, make Prostalin Suppositories therapeutically useful for the rapid relief of congestion and other manifestations of inflamed prostate.

indications:
- Senile hypertrophy of the prostate.
- Inflammation of the prostate.

dosage:
One suppository twice daily, or as prescribed by the physician.

Martin,

I think that Prostalin shows that many truly beneficial natural therapies are discovered--and forgotten--multiple times.

It seems that iodine as a treatment for prosta**** has been floating around in the background of Western medicine for quite some time, but only as an empirical therapy ("we have seen it work, but we don't know WHY it works"). The Prostalin insert that you quoted implies that iodine has a disinfectant effect, but they are oblique in indicating that. It's because they really aren't 100-percent sure how it helps the prostate, but they know that in some applications iodine is a good antibiotic. I think that perhaps other explanations might work too, but I have to be agnostic as to WHY iodine seems to help prostate disease. To me, it's fascinating that its effect on prostate disease has apparently been discovered by accident multiple times.

1) 100 mg of iodine is a fairly big dose, even for topical application. It must be diluted in a neutral base of some sort to prevent it from burning tissues.

2) The optimal dosage of iodine is an open question. The doctors don't agree amongst themselves, and some people have conditions that require special management.
I have heard various estimates about how much iodine the Japanese consume. I think this matter is still open. I am persuaded, however, that Americans consume much less iodine than is optimal. The RDAs were set 60 or 70 years ago to prevent goiter, rather than to be optimal for all the body's needs for iodine. There are also interesting observations (e.g., salt avoidance in the American diet since 1980) that indicate Americans consume even LESS iodine now than 30 years ago.

3) One would presume that local application of iodine would give high levels locally while keeping the iodine concentrations in the rest of the body low. We need more information about how Prostalin is used in practice by German doctors. Can it be used for a long time, or only for a few weeks?

4) Yes, the manufacturer thinks that this formulation is effective. I would certainly consider trying this as a symptomatic treatment of prostat*** if my symptoms were worse.

5) There's no patent protection on iodine or on the treatment of prostate disease with iodine. US companies won't test or promote products if they don't own intellectual property. Why pay for expensive clinical trials for treatments that anyone can copy? There are many products in the German natural-drug pharmacopeia that aren't widely available in the US. But I bet if US patients start reporting success with iodine suppositories that some generic drug company will sit up and take notice.

For the newbies and lurkers out there: This really *is* the GAT-GOREN thread! There is no connection between iodine supplementation and GG. (My first two years after GG were iodine-free, and there was a great improvement.) We are just trading stories on interesting treatments while Dr. Gat is on his research hiatus.

-dave

"Prosta****" stands for prostadynia, prostatosis, BPH and possibly prostatitis as well as any similar prostate problems of uncertain etiology, named or unnamed.

It's a way of suggesting that these different categories might not be all that distinct after all. These conditions seem to have a lot of overlapping symptoms and overlapping etiology. They all sort of blur together in a great, big smudge of enlarged, inflamed, boggy prostate unhappiness.

In our discussions of possible remedies for BPH/prostatitis/etc., it often seemed superfluous to specify exactly WHICH prostate problems could be helped by the treatment. There's a sense on the board that treatments which help, say, "prostatitis" might also help some/many/a few cases of "BPH", and vice versa. And so on for all the different prostate conditions.

Thunder introduced this abbreviation, and I adopted it in appreciation of its attitude of skepticism. I think he was inspired in part by an earlier discussion of prostatitis and BPH. Martin and others were positing deep connection(s) between these two conditions.

Dave: "'Prosta****' stands for prostadynia, prostatosis, BPH and possibly prostatitis as well as any similar prostate problems of uncertain etiology, named or unnamed."

Thanks, Dave.

Dave, now that you have passed the detox stage of your iodine therapy, how are you doing?

Ira

Post Edited (Skateman) : 9/22/2013 9:39:33 AM (GMT-6)

Thanks, Dave, for the report, and the mention of products by their brand names.