Logos' Question About ADT and Sex

In another thread where, in the opinion of all three mods Logos had gone off on a tangent, he asked an interesting question. He was still off in the weeds as far as that thread goes, and I will delete his comment there. But, I will post it here so we can talk about his question. Here is his comment, emphasis mine:

logoslidat said...
ED or sexual dysfunction i.e.{ total loss of libido} as a result of pca treatment is one package with at leasst 2 compartments. 1. loss of erection, with libido 2.Erection{ injections} without libido, 3. loss of erection and libido. so at least 3, then. #1 , the most common allows for the easier solutions. # 2 seems to me pointless, as there is only one "sexual" partner", who , actually both, would think would suffer some needless guilt and cause tension. On this point, most of the needless guilt would be from the man.
Women for the most part have the understanding of this issue, ironically better than the man, but will feel guilty based on their inability to please the man, who has a condition neither have control over. #3 seals the deal, now it all comes together negatively. What to do? I don't have that answer. But I do know what not to do. Hate yourself ,both partners, which will in time destroy what ever intimacy was trying to be effected. Depression is self hate from guilt , real or perceived. Appleseed brought up depression,which was the real trigger for my rant. He has the triple whammy and conceded his post as a rant and vent and did not need to go on Facebook or twitter to express it. that is the value of this forum. I participated in this thread to support Bigal and posted that support be fore my rant. I have since continued on this thread in spite of a pout full statement to the contrary. I have participated in these these thread often. I do believe in the importance of them. I posted a rant, which by its very definition is all over the place and logically inept, that was the antithesis to Appleseeds, but my rant was "out of line" and was castigated on the spin others provided. I spin my universe, I let others spin there's. Does this answer have holes, yes, feel free to fill them, I need support also. Shock therapy has proven useful in the treatment of depression, btw. As for GFMPH, to be honest, I do better one on one or with 2 or 3. From your story of being at a party once when first we met , I suspect you may be the same. I must ask you this, would the young man in my visual have cocked his head to focus attention on a comely young woman passing by on HT. I ask with complete ignorance of what exactly loss of libido " feels " like and want to know. Does a man still appreciate, the lines, the grace, poise and beauty of this other creature that glides the earth. I know the desire for sex is not there. The beauty, fat,skinny, short, tall, gorgeous , homely….. old/young. The eyes, the eyes…. are they still there?

Well-put.

Mel

It is a little bleak in a way. We have a crew in the neighborhood who get together once in a while. The cute girl across the way, who knows my situation, says she's never sure if I'm checking out her bottom because I like it, or because she has a panty line that could be resolved with better engineering of the fabric. And honestly, depending on where I am with Lupron, it has been both.

But as a no-nerves-spared guy who is painfully single, the worst is not that. It is the types of women I run into.

- The first have lots of compassion, and are very happy to fall into a relationship. Problem is that I discover later that they have no desire for anything that resembles an intimate relationship, and figure that because I'm a PCa guy, that I don't either. Not true.
- The second are fun, have that same compassion, but really freak out when meds and needles come into the picture. They don't stay around long enough to realize I'm not giving myself that shot just to see how big a bruise I can cause.
- The last are the ones who are looking for a sugar-daddy, and since I am not loaded (at this point in any sense of the word), they move on, which is just as well.

PeterD. Please answer the question or somebody on ht. Im not talking about a sexual or desiring attitude, Im talking about seeing what I posted when I described exactly what I was asking.. What is so difficult about understanding what you highlighted. The irony I guess is the male is so obsessed with sex that even when it is not there for him, he thinks about it... the lack of it. Surly we are more than this. Do you at least understand the question I described in the highlight. I want to help by saying like a beautiful sunset, but they are so much more, even with or without the biological urge. The woman who read this at there highest level,understand the question and yearn for this, as do men from women. Does this in fact disappear on HT. yes or no!!!! Its a simple question……

Logo,

For me the difficult part is that there is no partner - there is no one to come to any sort of a different intimacy, or a relationship with less sexual content.

So many here only think in terms of how to continue what existed with all of the changes that have happened. And rightfully so for them.

But that is not all of us.

The answer to your original question in my case is no. There is no point in all that "appreciation", as there is nothing to come of it.

Post Edited (142) : 12/9/2013 1:42:04 PM (GMT-7)

Appleseed If I was the avid runner I would not need the friend to remember my days of glory. the day you talk about will come soon enough for us all. I would love to talk to him and reminisce fondly about the days that were. When the conversation was over we would part fondly, him on his legs, me in my chair, with equal amounts of tearful joy from our friendship. This is my definition of a human being at its highest, as gender matters not in matters of Aloha. Am I at the highest level, of course not, do I acknowledge and intellectually know the highest, yes by the capital I of my being. I strive and do not accept any wiring that hinders progress to a self that, out of time, will know as I am known…. again "to be or not to be" the question and the answer wrapped up nicely. Sonny said a great thing " and not be thinking that my positive outlook alone will allow me to beat the odds on how HT affects me" I will at Sonnys request edit his quote out if he wants. It is not out of context. I am sharing my feelings, not my thoughts. Feelings are what my being experiences, thoughts are what my mind experiences. Words express both, do not mix the two up. I could say more much more, but can only attempt so much and will leave the rest to your reflections….

logoslidat said...
Appleseed If I was the avid runner I would not need the friend to remember my days of glory. the day you talk about will come soon enough for us all. I would love to talk to him and reminisce fondly about the days that were. When the conversation was over we would part fondly, him on his legs, me in my chair, with equal amounts of tearful joy from our friendship. This is my definition of a human being at its highest, as gender matters not in matters of Aloha. Am I at the highest level, of course not, do I acknowledge and intellectually know the highest, yes by the capital I of my being. I strive and do not accept any wiring that hinders progress to a self that, out of time, will know as I am known…. again "to be or not to be" the question and the answer wrapped up nicely. Sonny said a great thing " and not be thinking that my positive outlook alone will allow me to beat the odds on how HT affects me" I will at Sonnys request edit his quote out if he wants. It is not out of context. I am sharing my feelings, not my thoughts. Feelings are what my being experiences, thoughts are what my mind experiences. Words express both, do not mix the two up. I could say more much more, but can only attempt so much and will leave the rest to your reflections….

..Oh that's so nice of you to take on the character of the poor man in the chair, when in fact you know as well as I that three was intended for thee.. Darn your devilish..

Post Edited (Appleseed) : 12/9/2013 2:28:50 PM (GMT-7)

I want to compliment my HW brothers on this thread.

This is deep stuff, folks.

I feel like I am back in Philo. 101!!!

Very interesting.

For me, for some reason, I have totally accepted my situation. Since my surgery, Willy has not been Willful (well, partially Willful).

Maybe I'm lucky because my wife has also accepted it. That's how things are. We remain happy and our lives are unchanged in that regard. Frankly, I suspect it is because my PC is incurable and hence more worrisome. If I was a G6 blowing undetectABLE PSA's, then I think my ED would be a much bigger problem. Our new life is our new life. It's the way things are.

But, again, lots of deep thoughts here

Mel

I wiil continue to answer any posts directed to me. Appleseed since I am known by some as an avid runner, fitness buff on the forum, I assuredly did think the chair was mine. I'm sure you are aware of men that would react in the way I described. Some how because I took the bait, { avid runner in the wheelchair} willingly, you some how turn it around to make me the devil because I did exactly that, while ignoring totally the truth and possibility of that type of individual. Who's using Devil's logic here, come on….. I'll tell you what, you find a man in a wheelchair that once had their legs and ask him how he would react in the scenario you described. Ask enough and you will get at least 2 different answers. the answer I described in response to your hypothesis and the answer you described in that hypothesis. Both men assuredly worthy of love, yet both assuredly different. Which man of the two do you strive to be? Why would you indict me of describing the man I described but not self indict on the man you described? Actually I see no sense in answering another post of yours, as you and I see the world differently and it matters not to me what terms are put on those different views. You will not accept my view and I can not accept your view as I will lose hope. Good luck in your journey. PS I will not complain to the Mods for a violation of the rules by calling me one " of devilish ways " It was done out of frustration as was my violation. …... chastising the whining. Oh a quote, don't know who said it, but, " I fear if I lose my devils, my angels will leave as well "

PeterD, you see to me, I see it as increasing man's capability of thought, to love a woman, that has lost all sense of sexuality to the man is indeed a great love.actually transcending the dual aspect s , you mentioned. To answer your other question, you are dammed right , so much better, a man may want to leave his wife for her. But that would not be true love would it. I mean the man would not be true to his wife, would he. Ok assume they are both single, yes it would make the dream match assuming He met her standards. These things happen and glory to it , may they indeed live happily ever after, with many healthy and wonderful children, a regular fairy tale existence, free of struggle and strife. For the rest of us I think we all know what is the better love, as we come full circle to the other post on this very same subject not ed but love. You remember,I know.
Well hoping the north shore gets a little lower today, so as not to hang on this site all day. I needed the rest as I have been pushing hard the last week or so. No Gym, no water, no nuttin. The mind and spirit has had a very nice and strengthening workout tho

Logos,

It's a bit of a stretch to start from your question that I highlighted -- about a young man noticing a woman passing by -- and then be disappointed that we don't immediately talk about real lasting love, deeply spiritual and true. If we were to assume the young man was married, surely you would have told us.

As for the eyes, that's interesting too. It was only after I had been on ADT for several months that I discovered that young women had eyes. I mean, who knew?

...

Ok, kidding.

Yes, their eyes are still dangerous, even with the hormones. As a happily married man I must avoid the eyes. If our gazes were to meet the best that could happen would be to be turned into a toad.

ADT and loss of libido rhymes with itch, but can be managed as a couple.

The role of initiator typically changes to the female, who if they are anything like my spouse prefer the hand holding, actual discussion and extended foreplay as much or more than the intercourse itself.

In an old video, Dr. Charles "Snuffy" Myers discusses the cousin to loss of libido, loss of penile length after surgery and concludes it is more of a male ego thing than a cause of concern for their post-menopausal partner, vaginal dryness, etc.

/askdrmyers.wordpress.com/page/17/

Later on the same page is a video on "Hormonal Therapy & Your Marriage Posted December 22, 2010" plus one on the subsequent page 18 "Sex On Hormonal Therapy Posted November 24, 2010".

Sonny you are Sherry are great people, sure you can manage through it as a team, particularly since she is so familiar with the disease that her former husband died from.

As 142 indicates, it would be much more difficult without a partner, since quite frankly on ADT, the idea of a sexual relationship is not at the forefront as it was 50 years ago.

When I was being treated for low-T for several years, I always had a strong libido, but doctor was right. With better living through chemistry, can still get an erection, just have no desire to use it unless prompted by partner.

Hope he is as right on his other PCa related prognostications.

Speaking of "ications", even Rosie Palm from days of old is not a solution since the idea wears off before the physical catches up.

LupronJim

Logo, I am going to take a shot at your question from a different angle, but I think it would help answer what seems to be a simple question.

No, I have never been on HT. No, I have never experienced ED. However, I have experienced complete loss of libido at one point in my life.

After my initial bouts of porocarcinoma, and after enduring some brutal treatments, I became clinically depressed, the serious stuff. I was on Lexapro, the anti-depressant for 3 years. This ended about 5 years before I ever had PC, and I have never been on any anti-depressant yet.

While on Lexapro, I experienced total lack of libido. Total non-interest in sex. Never lost the mechanical ability, could have errections anytime I wished, the problem was, I didn't care about sex one way or the other. It was as though I had never heard of it before, sexual thoughts or feelings never crossed my mind or body.

When I did perform, on my end, there was no feeling, no joy, nothing. Just the mechanical motion of doing it. I seldom would have orgasm, and if I did, there was little feeling associated with it, or it would be so delayed and protracted, that it wasn't worth the effort.

It was a strange period in my life, as normally, as I am now, a very sexually active and alert person. I use to tell my wife, it was like my brain wasn't connecting the dots to complete sexually. Something was missing.

A few months after coming off the Lexapro, all normal desires came back like a raging bull. So I have experience that lack of feeling and desire. During that time, it's not that I didn't notice beautiful women passing me by on the street, I simply didn't care.

I agree, that with our brother's 142 situation, not having a partner currently in his life, it would make the entire subject more disturbing and sad. For those of us blessed with a good wife or partner, it takes the sting out of a lot of bad situation, including sexual issues.

And for you Sonny, if you read this, I am pretty certain that its something you and your new bride can work on together as partners. She has the experience from her previous marriage, and you have the experience of working with the difficulties that you and Lynn, may she rest in peace, shared together those last few years. Got total confidence you will have your own unique solutions, and still be able to uphold your standard mantra. I wish you well, if you embark on the HT journey.

I think it was a good question. I didn't understand some of the antagonistic replies in some of the posts, however.

David in SC