no prostate but old pre-op urinary urgency is back, seems weird to me

Hi -- this makes no sense to me. One of the main symptoms pre-RRP surgery was the 3-5 years prior to surgery (mid-Jan 2015) I frequently had tremendous urgency to urinate, as if I would pee in my pants if I didn't relieve myself within 10-15 seconds. I adjusted by keeping a bottle in the car to urinate into when the need arose, or urinating between two vans or SUVs in a parking lot. The last month or so -- third month out from the RRP -- my old pattern of tremendous urgency is creeping back in. The good news is I'm pretty continent, but it takes some doing to get to the bathroom when at home, or a public bathroom when I'm out and about, or pull over when I'm driving my car, not to pee in my pants. I don't feel the pad I've got on could handle the forceful urinating of a cup or two or three of urine that's about to happen.

I wasn't expecting this. I thought No Prostate meant No Tremendous Urgency To Pee any more. I'm about 95 percent dry, meaning except for some dribbles and a small squirt now and then during the day, there's no involuntary urinating happening. But just barely. I'm about to bring this to my Hopkins' urologist/surgeon's attention, but before I do that, I thought I'd float the question out here and ask if some other men have experienced exactly what I'm experiencing? What in the heck is going on? Isn't having tremendous urgency to urinate within seconds DIFFERENT than the whole continent/incontinent issue? Which as I understand it isn't about having tremendous urgency, but rather has to do with my body involuntarily leaking, dribbling, and squirting? I'm not talking about that. I'm 98 percent in control, but that other 2 percent is like a fire hose about to be let loose.

Thanks for any clarity anyone can offer about this. I'll ask my Hopkins uro/surgeon about this next week. Just want to tap into the vast experience of the guys on this Prostate Cancer forum first.

Bill Positive

What are you drinking? Coffees, tea? There are somethings that are known bladder irritants that can cause symptoms like this early on. Or just bladder spasms that haven't stopped yet because of the surgery.

Good thing to talk to your URO about. Likely this is just a temporary nuisance and your URO can give you something to help while your body is still healing. If it's really being a problem you might want to put in a call/email before your appointment.

Do complain to the doc - they can't fix what they don't know about.

and even three years after my RT, I still have a mental map of all the men's rooms in my city. When I enter a new place, I don't look for fire exits, I look for the men's room.

Andrew

Bill - you might need to modify your drinking habits for a little while. In time it should get better.


Andrew

-- "have they cultured your urine?"

Hi Allen -- Thanks for asking the obvious question. Sometimes so easy to overlook. The answer to that -- do I have an untreated urinary tract infection? -- might explain my tremendous urgency to urinate lately. I just sent an email (one of those great private patient-to-doctor, doctor-to-patient messaging systems -- MyChart at Johns Hopkins) to my uro/surgeon describing the 10-20 seconds from-suddenly-needing-to-urinate-to-urinating, and asking if he suggests I see my primary to have my urine cultured to rule out a UTI. I'm certain he'll say that's the logical next step . . . along with urging I not drink so much fruit juice, and not drink water or juice at midnite right before bed.

Many thanks for your excellent suggestion I get my urine cultured. Just saw your post a second ago. Will do!

Bill Positive

Having the prostate removed can cause OAB. May resolve in time. Sometimes you may need meds to control. Should talk to your doctor.

For about six months, orange juice would cause it for me. Now, 15 months post RALP, urgency might happen once to twice a month, usually from too much coffee.

Mel, you say.... "Oddly enough, Fiber made things worse"
When you take a lot of fiber, are you drinking a lot of water? That's important. I was told by my (former) nutritionist) that without sufficient water intake, high Fiber consumption becomes like cement..

BTW, did you ever try the probiotics that we discussed? Has it helped at all?

Hi All -- Yes, citrus most definitely seems to be the #1 culprit in the high-urgency-to-urinate department. Starting 4-5 days ago I stopped eating oranges altogether -- I LOVE a good, sweet orange -- and tracking simultaneously timewise with my dropping citrus, the gonna-urinate-in-30-seconds-tops feeling seems to be gone completely.

Thanks for those who pointed the finger at citrus in general and oranges in particular. Second suspected culprit is my previous high consumption of fruit juices in general. I've stopped all fruit juices 100% too.

Once I've clocked a whole month without any great urgency to urinate, I'll experiment with the occasional lemon (fresh squeezed lemon juice in not water in the morning is a good kidney and liver cleanser, I'm told) and Texas red grapefruit (just tastes good). For the moment, provided the big urgency stays gone, I won't pursue having my urine cultured (thanks Tall Allen) to diagnose a possible urinary tract infection. Thanks all.

Bill Positive

Hi Mel --

-- . . . we are too prone to give medical advice?

Speaking for myself, all advice is always welcome, medical or otherwise. When in doubt, give the advice.

I just never know from what direction something new and positive and heartwarming will come from. Monday night I dropped my mobile in a parking lot, and didn't notice that I had lost it until I couldn't find it the following morning. I asked a friend to call my number, she did, and the guy who found my phone answered! She hands her phone to me and an hour later I meet the guy at a gas station nearby where he tells me to be, and at what time, and I get my phone back. I don't know what this has to do with giving medical advice, but it's a story about the innate goodness in every person. I guess the relevance is when a person exhibits kindness to another person, the subliminal message or advice is, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." I'm sure he felt good, and I know I felt good.

-- . . . Well, then, I guess I have to send you a bill, Bill -- I'm Positive about that!

All bills are always welcome. Here on HW-Prostate Cancer, oftentimes it seems to me the advice given is so on-target, is so valuable to the recipient, it's literally quality of life changing. Like advice about leaking? Other urinary issues? Or when and how much to exercise? What to charge for some great advice? Who knows?!

Along with the saying, "No good deed goes unpunished" which is sort of wickedly topsy-turvy and funny, there are others that ring true for all, like, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." Sometimes called "The Golden Rule." A variation on that being, "Giving is it's own reward."

The advice routinely given here on HW is, in some situations, seems to me to be worth tens of thousands or tens of millions of dollars, to the recipient. The sender gets out his/her invisible pen and invisible piece of paper, and writes out an invisible bill, and mails it out at the invisible post office. The sender feels good. The recipient feels good. Turns out it's true, the most precious things in life are free.

Bill Positive

Hi --

I've recently fallen off the "wagon" in terms of avoiding eating late at night, avoiding overeating anytime, being more conscious around food in general, avoiding a lot of dairy, avoiding a lot of citrus. Pick myself up, dust myself off, and start over. What else can I do? I'm just amazed at the intimate cause and effect relationship between eating certain specific foods, and then having tremendous urinary urgency for 2-3 days afterwards. Just from eating a couple of oranges! Or just from overeating a teeny bit. My bladder is acutely sensitive, and I need to be much more sensitive and present and aware not to eat things that are going to irritate it.

Just was on this link about foods with the potential to irritate the bladder.

www.healthline.com/health-slideshow/11-foods-to-avoid-if-you-have-oab#1

Speaks about "overactive bladder, sometimes known as urge incontinence."

I got some good advice from the men on here on this topic 2-4 weeks ago, particularly to eliminate or cut way back on citrus, which when I was going through bags of sweet Florida citrus, I was also running to the bathroom constantly too.

Somehow I forgot completely that "Ma Google" knows everything, is a great research tool, so yesterday I Googled the phrase, "A dozen foods to avoid when there is an overactive bladder, and I got this following list. I'm not endorsing or promoting you follow these guidelines, but check it out for yourself. Everything I ever say here is suggested for educational purposes only. (Got that caveat out of the way.) Onions and spicy foods and tomatoes are all foods I consume a lot of, so I'm going to experiment with cutting way back on onions, spicy foods, and tomato products. Here's the list on the website mentioned above:

1. tomato products [I don't know where this leaves the hype about lycopenes are good cancer fighters.]
2. coffee and tea
3. chocolate
4. citrus -- oranges, limes, lemons (all high in citric acid)
5. alcoholic beverages
6. carbonated beverage
7. spicy foods
8. sweeteners (natural and artificial)
9. processed foods
10. onions
11. cranberries

Separate subject. Yesterday while visiting friends I discovered they had a DVD of the documentary, "Forks Over Knives" which is a great title and instantly brought to mind the phrase, "Fruits and Veggies over Meat" . . . which turned out to be an accurate assumption. Wonderful movie.

Don't quote me on this, and I need to confirm it, but I think I remember a doc in the movie saying the data on prostate cancer in Japan is that in such-and-such a recent year, there were SIX CASES of PC in Japan. SIX CASES of Prostate Cancer in the whole country in an entire year!

The scientific questions being, How could that be? Could diet have anything to do with it? And other Asian countries. Places where folks eat way less meat and consume much more plant-based whole food protein than we do here in America. The overarching idea presented was pretty sweeping ... that consumption of red meat is responsible for a long list of degenerative diseases. Hype? Wild exaggerations? And switching over to consuming ONLY plant-based protein and avoid red meat, in an otherwise healthy diet, is the way to go.

Definitely worth a good look for anyone interested in the role diet and nutrition plays on our overall health, including on prostate cancer.

Best,
Bill Positive

-- "Okay, what are we supposed to eat if these items are black listed??"

Hi alephnull,

My sentiments exactly. I was just wearing the hat of the Devil's Advocate in providing all with the bad news. Hey . . . don't shoot the messenger!

I can't resist a home garden dead ripe tomato.

Don't drink coffee or tea.

Chocolate not allowed? Surely they must be joking!

If I don't have an ripe, fresh, sweet orange now and then, I'll do something rash!

Gave up alcohol in the mid-70s. I mean the 1970s, not my age.

An ice cold carbonated fruit juice on a sweltering hot summer day. Heaven.

Spicy foods? Sure, no problem. This rule doesn't apply to Indian food does it?

Sweeteners. 70 years ruining my taste buds so they want intense flavor and sweetness and saltiness. I need to speak with my lawyer.

Processed foods. The industrial revolution and metal cans used to be considered a good thing. If I eliminate everything that comes in a can, that leaves fresh fruit, fresh vegetables, grains, legumes, oil (sparingly), and spring water. No processed foods? No pizza now and then? This is a joke, right?

Onions. I love onions. I'll have to get a therapist to deal with my giving up garlic and onions.

Cranberries. Except for Thanksgiving (in America) I don't eat cranberries.

Bill Positive

Post Edited (Bill Positive) : 4/27/2015 5:50:24 PM (GMT-6)

Oftentimes it seems to me there's a really good thread about some topic of interest to all -- maybe diet or exercise or supplements, or to a lesser extent something like incontinence in general, or a subsidiary topic like urinary urgency, which this thread was initially about. I'm noticing how the thread I began about urinary urgency quickly (and properly) shifted over to a discussion of diet, stayed on that topic for awhile -- what foods are known to aggravate a sensitive bladder? -- or could it be a UTI? -- and then the discussion took a turn towards comedy and humor, where it sort of wound down.

I'm grateful to Tall Allen for his thought-provoking post and subsequent good discussion on "lycopene, selenium, and green tea catechins -- safety concerns" and to cashlessclay for his post on "Diet, exercise and PC progression." Another great discussion.

There seems to be a consensus (maybe) that exercise and diet really do make a difference, and I resonate especially too with comments about it is my DNA and RNA -- genes and chromosones -- which may ultimately be found to be what turns on my PC and maybe there are other genes which turn it off. I find the scientific talk often hard to follow and digest. What I enjoy most here is the sweet sense of humor which permeates the Prostate Cancer forum. Our eventual physical demise is certain, yet for the present we virtually are having a beer together (or a glass of spring water) and enjoying ourselves, and are quick to laugh. There is great merriment to be found here. The wit and laugh out loud humor here is, I'm convinced, essential to keep things in balance.

Unless I'm missing the point entirely and Pratoman was being completely serious, I cracked up on reading his comment in the previous post, "Celibacy is clearly the answer to all of life's problems, I'm convinced of it." My own short answer to all of life's problems -- certainly in my 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s, and 60s (pre-cancer diagnosis decades all) -- was, "Frequent intercourse is clearly the answer to all of life's problems, I'm convinced of it."

The jury is out so far for me on what, now that I've begun my 70s, is clearly the answer to all of life's problems. Sex seems somehow less important in the grand scheme of things to me now. As to the practicals, "Willy" seems to require the (expensive) contributions of the pharmaceutical industry (Ciallis) to overcome the ED side effect of this past January's Radical Retropublic Prostectomy. I feel I now see women more clearly, without often looking through the distorting lens of desire. Funny how relevant certain chemicals can be!

These days I see a gradual slight downhill physical and mental .... slide. Don't see running a marathon in my future. There are some aches and pains I didn't notice before. Vision seems a tad off. Time to go see the eye doc. Some slight forgetfulness is happening. Holy crap, these youngsters are holding the door for me now! What's that about?! By focusing on what I most love doing -- photographing dogs -- it brings my energy up, they make me laugh, they keep me engaged and not taking things too seriously. What's the answer to all of life's problems? Spend more time with dogs! Who rescued who?

Cancer, schmantzer, life is a mystery to be enjoyed, not a problem to be solved. Give everything it's proper due, do the intelligent things that can be done to deal with prostate cancer, but don't let prostate cancer become the central subject or focus of my life. Prostate Out, Dogs and Laughter In.

Bill Positive

Post Edited (Bill Positive) : 4/29/2015 8:53:37 AM (GMT-6)