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Posted 5/24/2018 1:38 PM (GMT 0)
On further digging on bmi- per this study by national cancer institute ( research was focused on women ) ideal BMI range is 22.5-24.9 although normal BMI is 18.5-24.9.

“What about those at the low end of normal BMI? A healthy BMI ranges as low as 18.5, but longevity was associated with a minimum BMI of 20 in this study. “For women in the BMI category of 15 to 18.5 we observed the increased risk of death was 47%, and for women in the BMI category of 18.5 to 20 the increased risk of death was 14% compared to those in the BMI range of 22.5 to 24.9 (our reference group),” said the study’s lead researcher, Dr. Amy Berrington de Gonzalez of the National Cancer Institute. “However these risks decreased with longer follow-up suggesting they might at least partly be due to weight loss from pre-existing conditions rather than causal.”
Posted 5/24/2018 2:00 PM (GMT 0)
At my insistence, my husband has been doing a modified version of the diet that cashless follows. I am comparing his PSA, which is taken every 3 months, to what he eats. The diet that my husband follows was recommended by the head of alternative medicine at MSKCC. His oncologist believes that although there are no studies to prove it and only anecdotal evidence, diet can have a significant effect on the progression of prostate cancer.

I am seeing a correlation between diet and PSA doubling time, although it is still too early to know if it is a trend, or just random fluctuation. I am also experimenting to see what works for my husband in terms of diet. I found that it was not enough to go plant-based and partly vegan (he eats fish, skinless chicken, 2 eggs per week, and very limited dairy). We needed to limit carbs (and no white carbs) to 1/4 of total foods. Last period his PSA went down for the first time.

I tend to be a pessimist and do not expect the good results from my husband's last 2 PSA tests to continue. I expect that as his cancer becomes more aggressive, diet will not be able to improve his PSA doubling time. I keep moving his diet in a healthier direction though.
Posted 5/24/2018 2:50 PM (GMT 0)
Sigh....diet falls into the same realm as religion and politics doesn't it. IMO, if your diet works for you, go with it and enjoy life.

For me, I come from a family where, almost without exception, everyone dies of heart disease. Males tend to have their first incident in their mid-60s. Diabetes is also a shared trait.

When I was in in my late-20s I was diagnosed with hypertension. My weight was normal (170 and I am 5'-10") and I was extremely active but it's hard to beat genetics. I'd taken some college-level human biology and nutrition classes (I thought I might pursue Registered Dietician as a career for a while) and, as an experiment switched to a plant-based diet about 38-years ago.

My blood pressure was not impacted by the dietary change or the increase in exercise (bicycling) and I went on a medication to control it. What my diet does control is my cholesterol level. As I've gotten older (I'll be 66 next week) I have seen that number go from 165 up to 210. By switching to more vegan, that number drops down below 180.

In my late-40s I took up serious running and since then have done countless 5ks and 10ks, some half marathons, and 2 full marathons. I am not fast but I can run far. I am a 4-hour marathoner. For that 2nd marathon I went full vegan and trained with that diet and felt great through 600-plus miles of training and the marathon itself.

So, for me, I have found a diet that works for my lifestyle. I like the discipline that it requires. I like that I have to pay attention to what I am eating. And I love to cook.

I NEVER suggest to anyone else what they should do about their diet but I get plenty of negative comments about mine. After all, I am a Californian who moved to Montana 25 years ago. (What was I thinking????)

Here's a comment I got a few weeks ago: "Well, that vegetarian thing you do sure didn't stop you from getting prostate cancer."

What do you say to something like that other than think about what mother taught about saying nice things?
Posted 5/24/2018 3:28 PM (GMT 0)
Cashless said " I had to go to near zero refined carbs to
stop PSA progression"

Interesting just last night I left youtube running and I woke up to hear a doctor (Jason Fung) talking about diet. Specifically that we do not need any carbs and that one can live just fine on fat and protein.

POINT: But beyond that he saw patients whose cancer disappeared. He attributed it to the change in diet.

He also spoke about only eating when hungry, saying that primitive peoples frequently go days without food.

So, consequently his final recommendation (that he follows) is to fast frequently and only eat one meal a day, and of course severely limit carbs.

Still pondering this one.
Posted 5/24/2018 3:32 PM (GMT 0)
Bluebird, sounds like good news to me. I had my first PSA reduction
5 years ago, and I don't see any evidence that the cancer is getting
more difficult to control. For me, it has always been difficult, but doable.
Expect a bumpy road, but don't get discouraged.

Can you tell us if MSKCC added anything that may be useful?
Has your husband lost weight? Lipids improved?

Thanks,
Cashless
Posted 5/24/2018 4:34 PM (GMT 0)
Alephnull:

I remain fairly agnostic on the effectiveness of diet and exercise on cancer but if you tend to be overweight the lower carb, one meal a day thing might make sense. I saw an article in the Tampa Bay Times the other day that offers a reasonably good layman's explanation of why "intermittent fasting" seems to work. The article doesn't mention carbs but it's not hard to see how a lower glucose reserve after your meals might enhance the effects.

Intermittent fasting seems to be a good thing, new report suggests - Tampa Bay Times 05/22/2018
Posted 5/24/2018 8:01 PM (GMT 0)
I suspect that the PubMed study is correct and a vegan diet would not make significant difference over 2 years. The trouble with such studies is that some men take it as permission to load up on sausages, burgers and onion rings while basically bypassing the vegetables.

I've seen studies posted that back up almost any diet preference. What I prefer to look at more than individual studies are countries with low rates of prostate cancer such as, for example, Japan, Greece or India. There are several common factors:

- low amount of processed food relative to the North American diet
- low amount of sugar
- high amounts of vegetables and fruit
- higher seafood consumption
- lower red meat consumption (but not necessarily vegan or vegetarian)
- lower dairy consumption (but not necessarily dairy free)
- more use of spice

So IMO I don't think you can go too far wrong following the above plan.
Posted 5/24/2018 8:19 PM (GMT 0)
No "good" studies have ever found that a specific diet has an effect on PC progression.
Could it be that diets work in the same way as placebo?
Could it explain the strange thing about diets - that some of them seem to work, at least for some?

Just a thought.
Posted 5/24/2018 8:41 PM (GMT 0)
ddyss says . . . "I hope someone comes out with a blood sugar/BMI target . . ."

My normal BMI was 23 and it's now 18. That's skinny. My biggest health threat
now is a stiff wind. So, I wouldn't target a low BMI, but if your PSA starts rising,
and if a "working" diet takes you there, I would just go with it.

I find my PSA results highly correlated with weight. My weight has finally stabilized
but I still notice that during a given test period, if I gained a pound or two my PSA
results are much more likely to disappoint than if I held steady, or lost a pound or
two. So much so that I'm now willing to stop a new routine early, just on weight
gain, and not wait for that PSA rise.

As for fasting blood sugar numbers, mine have been about 90 mg/dL and have not
changed with the diet. I appear to have no control over that number but it seems
to be uncorrelated with diet success. It's glucose/insulin "spikes" that need to be
contained.

Cashless
Posted 5/24/2018 9:13 PM (GMT 0)

cashlessclay said...

I find my PSA results highly correlated with weight.


"highly correlated"...so a Pearson's correlation coefficient of 0.7 or greater? This is really easy to measure, if you're going to use words like that. Or did you mean to say: "It seems to me that there is a positive correlation—when one goes up, the other goes up—but I haven't ever really taken the couple minutes necessary to calculate the actual correlation coefficient, so I don't really know if it's a strong correlation, weak correlation or just statistically scattered data."


cashlessclay said...

...if I gained a pound or two my PSA results are much more likely to disappoint than if I held steady, or lost a pound or two.


The first comment appeared to be wide-eyed, but this second one is just preposterous. That's a single percent of your weight. Gotta respect your effort—"A" for effort—but your unsophisticated approach appears to be chasing windmills. There's a zillion variables you are not controlling for which probably contribute more that 1% weight variation. SNR problem.

But at the end of the day (tip of the hat to Gemlin's recent post), if it feels good, do it...and whatever it is, do it until you're satisfied!

Post Edited (NKinney) : 5/24/2018 4:09:02 PM (GMT-6)

Posted 5/24/2018 9:27 PM (GMT 0)
Cashless, your comments are always appreciated, by the vast majority. It’s pretty clear that you take the time to post for the benefit of others. Whether we agree with everything or not, you should be praised, not only for the effort you put into this, but for the time you spend contributing to the greater good here.
Posted 5/24/2018 11:44 PM (GMT 0)
cashless,

If you email me I will give you the exact diet my husband was given. It is quite lengthy and I don't want to hijack this thread with dietary advice. In practice, I have modified the diet by making it stricter. I have heard some credible experts on prostate cancer and diet speak in NY, and have incorporated some of their suggestions into my husband's diet. I would be glad to share those suggestions with you.

On a personal note, I just use intuition in creating healthy meals. All foods are fresh, usually organic, and high quality. If I cook a non-vegan dish it is usually plant based. For instance, last night I made a Moroccan chicken stew for dinner. It was made with lots of vegetables, chickpeas, and a limited amount of skinless chicken. I look for a rainbow of colors (in vegetables) in the meals I prepare. Cooking is a hobby of mine so I enjoy this challenge.

My husband has not lost weight, but he was not overweight to begin with. I don't know about his lipids.
Posted 5/25/2018 12:41 AM (GMT 0)
The study I quoted actually must have been based on statical correlation , although it’s not specifically for PC not is it for men - but none the less there is a correlation of weight to getting cancer and also to recurrence.

There has been much discussion on blood insulin but since no easy testing/monitoring exists , but there may be a correlation between blood sugar and PCa &!recurrence also.
Posted 5/25/2018 1:45 AM (GMT 0)
NKinney says . . . "The first comment appeared to be wide-eyed, but this second one
is just preposterous . . . "A" for effort—but your unsophisticated approach appears
to be chasing windmills."

NKinney, first I want to thank you for your insightful and helpful encouragement.

But, I'm still waiting for you to finish your thoughts. Surely you are wondering how
this unsophisticated, windmill chasing guy manage to have a pretty good career?

You must be wondering :

How did this guy get picked to provide technical direction to some 150 rocket scientists,
for some 25 projects, over a thirty five year span? How come his work was briefed to
three Presidents? Why was this guy selected to give expert testimony to subcommittees
in the Senate and House - - - multiple times. How come he is the only person ever to
give a missile guidance tutorial to members of congress?

Why did he get greeted, at the cabinet level, not by "I'm glad to meet you" - - - but rather
by "how have you been"? Why was he selected to go to another country for an evaluation
of their missile guidance program? Why has another country sent guidance hardware to
him for evaluation? How does he do it?

Well, NKinney, the secret is the ability to see the wheat from the chaff. That was the one
thing that I could do better than most. I have worked with maybe twenty to thirty PhD
rocket scientists and I know what really, really smart looks like. It didn't look like me.
But I could separate the wheat from the chaff better than most. I could home in on what
was important.

We looked at chaff as something that sounded good, often sounded sophisticated, but of no
net value to our ultimate objective. So we ignored it, and we moved on.

Cashless
Posted 5/25/2018 2:12 AM (GMT 0)
No, I haven’t really previously wondered how or where these thoughts of yours got knocked off the common-sense track, but I think your post just made it exceedingly obvious to even the casual observer.

Post Edited (NKinney) : 5/25/2018 1:55:26 PM (GMT-6)

Posted 5/25/2018 2:42 AM (GMT 0)

cashlessclay said...


.....the only person ever to give a missile guidance tutorial to members of congress.

......I could separate the wheat from the chaff better than most.
Cashless

Giving missile guidance knowledge to Congress is alarming, at best, and I suspect most of us like to believe we separate fact from fiction better than most.

Gary, who has fired off too many bad AIM 7’s and AIM 9’s. smilewinkgrin
Posted 5/25/2018 2:44 AM (GMT 0)
Cashless
You ALWAYS gave me the impression that you are a very smart guy and said that about you
and I have always been jealous of you because I couldn’t control my psa like yours. Your BMI is 18? Omg. I have to loose 30 pounds now in order to get to 18. I am about 152 pounds now. That would be extremely difficult for me to do. Could it be your very low BMI that is giving you this great
Success and not the sugar/iron spikes?
Posted 5/25/2018 4:03 AM (GMT 0)
Cashless - I also now have a new goal to get to 20 BMI from 23 ( 18 would be impossible). I don’t want to be scared of stiff winds!
Kudos to you for have done. I really have to be cash less to get there !
Posted 5/25/2018 8:12 AM (GMT 0)
Garyi says . . . "Giving missile guidance knowledge to Congress is alarming, at best, and I
suspect most of us like to believe we separate fact from fiction better than most."

Gary, you may recall this case. It was a headline story here in D.C. for most of the year.
Chris Cox and his committee/staff/consultants got the missile technology briefing. Appeared
three times if front of the Cox committee. The senate side was chaired by Richard Shelby.
John Glenn was asking me most of the questions, with Chief scientist/Air Force and (former)
President Reagan's Science adviser in attendance.

/www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/special/campfin/stories/cf052098.htm

/www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/special/campfin/stories/rocket061298.htm

/www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/special/campfin/stories/pentagon053198.htm

Cashless
Posted 5/25/2018 8:59 AM (GMT 0)
Gary, by the way, the best stories aren't on the above list because
they do sound over the top. How about a one-on-one, somewhat
heated, one hour discussion with Bill Perry about a Peacekeeper
missile deployment concept - - with my escort trying to pull me out
of the meeting. Evidently, the escort never witnessed such an
exchange between the two organizations, but Bill enjoyed it. Frank,
and on target, just like his missile.

Or, my experiences with the two lead guidance system designers for
the V-2 missile (WW-II vintage) both of whom came to the US.

Cashless
Posted 5/25/2018 9:24 AM (GMT 0)
Ak & ddyss,

I never set out to lose weight. My weight loss just followed
my diet modifications to slow PCa. So, lets work on the diet
and let weight go where it may. I much rather be at about
160 lbs, but I can't make that work.

Ak, you should be getting a PSA reading soon, any chance you
can use Labcorp Ultra-sensitive? If the results aren't good,
I'll need to see detailed food/liquid intake for about three days.
Are you taking green tea with ginger. I just started removing
the ginger because of its effect on iron absorption. I started
chewing the ginger and my PSA started to rise.

Cashless
Posted 5/25/2018 12:48 PM (GMT 0)
Cashless
Thanks very much for trying to work with me again on this but the truth is since
My last psa .22 ( it was at MSK but different location than the .17), I became very disappointed and
Stopped the diet we are on. I am still vegan but eat fish but stopped with
The water/liquid and oat meal. so, if I do the psa now, I am sure it will be very bad.
I am seeing my MD on 8/15 so I will be getting my psa and mri a week earlier.
I always thought, I am very disciplined but learning about you now, I am no way near or
Close to you.
Yes, I can look into getting psa at lab Corp. I stopped the green tea with ginger becuse
I had a couple of upset stomach but now my stomach is good.
So, I am TOTALLY lost on what to do. I judge by results and tried the diet
For 4 months or more and psa kept going up. You said it took you 4 years
To get it adjusted, I am not sure if I can handle 4 years. But I am willing to try ANYTHING
Posted 5/25/2018 1:12 PM (GMT 0)
Ak123, I looked through this thread and did not see any prior reference from you to green tea with ginger. I am interested since I have been drinking green tea with ginger since before meeting PC, just because I like it. Is there a thread somewhere on this subject?
Posted 5/25/2018 1:18 PM (GMT 0)
Since my PSA started back up post-surgery I've been on a less-rigorous form of the Cashless diet. No red meat or dairy, skinless chicken and fish allowed, and a lot more vegetables than before. I'm persuaded by the research TA cites that diet does not affect bio-chemical recurrence, but I'm going to stick with the diet mainly for health and weight reasons.
Posted 5/25/2018 1:27 PM (GMT 0)
I truly think that The diet that cashless and I are on is extremely good for overall health. I speak from
Personal experience. The problem I have is I do not know how to tweak it
To control psa progression but it’s perfect if you want to get healthy.
Cigafred, green tea and ginger has been recommended by many doctors for pc but cashless just said
Ginger might have made his Psa rises, he knows better than me.
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