Vaccine-seeking, DISGRACEFUL

VinceInMT said...
Here in Montana they just opened the list to those 65 and older. My wife went online and got us appointments for next Friday. Lots of open slots. I talked to two people in the past week who said they aren’t getting the vaccine because it’s a “scamdemic” and can’t understand why I would get it. I told them that it looks like some countries may require proof of vaccine to enter and I plan to do some international travel next year and so a shot it is.

If it's a scamdemic, what was it, besides their hearts stopping, that killed 2.5 million people in the last year?

djintonic said...
The latter group might be smaller if our former president and first lady had made public the Covid vaccinations they received in January.

Perhaps but I suspect none to few who suffer from TDS would have complained that he didnt need the vaccine and was depriving others of a potentially life saving dose.

We have three vaccines now because the previous admin pushed the bureaucracy along. The feel good story that is emblematic of that sentiment.....

https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2020/12/11/trump-stephen-hahn-fda-covid-vaccine/

Basically Meadows told the FDA to approve emergency use of one of the vaccines by the end of that day (one day after the oversight board approved) or submit his resignation.

His choice.

They approved that day.

It shaved a day or two off the original timeline, but think how many hundreds of thousands of doses are administered per day. It was that kind of attention to bureaucratic detail that helped get these vaccines out the door.

Can you imagine that call?

Mark: “Hi this is Mark Meadows. Chief of staff to Potus.”
FDA: “Hi Mark”
Mark: “So the board approved the use of the vaccine yesterday and we were wondering why the FDA STILL hasn't granted authorization yet?”
FDA: “ Well Mark we were planning an event tomorrow.....”
Mark: “Stop. I am not interested in an event. At this point the only value is the emergency use approval.”
FDA: “We will approve but....”
Mark: “Stop. No buts. Its either the approval, today, or your resignation. Am I clear?”
FDA:”(swallows hard).....Yes”
Mark: “It was good talking to you. Remember, today.”

Something like that. Its fun to think about.

I bet conversations like that happened everyday for months to move the bureaucracy.

I meant to post yesterday, but didn't. What I wanted to say is this: can't we stop with calling this vaccine distribution "disgraceful" and just thank God that we have three vaccines that are getting into people's arms with increasing numbers every day?
Personally, I congratulate the previous administration, and this current administration, and the scientists, and the pharmaceutical companies, and the nurses, and the physician's assistants, and the doctors, and the volunteers who staff the vaccination sites. I even thank the truckers who are getting the medication where it needs to go.
I guess that as a nation we've really become accustomed to instant gratification. But, after initially being told that it would take years to develop a vaccine, the fact is that effective vaccines were developed very quickly, and the pace is really picking up.
I have six siblings. All of us, and all of our spouses, now have at least one dose. We live in Tennessee, north/central/and southern Illinois, Texas, and Washington. We range in age from 77 to 62.
Consider the difficulty of producing the quantity of vaccine necessary to inoculate millions of Americans, not to mention the syringes, the refrigeration equipment, the logistics of getting the vaccine to the distribution sites, managing databases, and so forth. I'm amazed, quite frankly, and surprised.
So, it is with sadness that I must also mention that my sister, the only girl among the seven of us, who got vaccinated a week ago, nevertheless came down with COVID on Friday. She's dealing with fever, chills, weakness...the whole nine yards, and yet she was one of the most careful people in the nation about isolating. We only hope her symptoms don't get any worse.
Suddenly, my whole perspective on this pandemic has changed and become personal in a way I had hoped it never would.
But, I still must say, while we may be impatient, we should all be enormously grateful that our nation has reacted as swiftly and effectively as possible to bring this sad chapter in our history to an end.

Post Edited (clocknut) : 3/7/2021 3:07:54 PM (GMT-7)

clocknut said...
I meant to post yesterday, but didn't. What I wanted to say is this: can't we stop with calling this vaccine distribution "disgraceful" and just thank God that we have three vaccines that are getting into people's arms with increasing numbers every day?

...But, I still must say, while we may be impatient, we should all be enormously grateful that our nation has reacted as swiftly and effectively as possible to bring this sad chapter in our history to an end.

Clocknut--I am so sorry to read that your sister has been infected and hope that she recovers soon and fully. You are right that we should be grateful for the vaccines that may end this plague, and all involved in their development and delivery. The hardest arithmetic to master is how to count our blessings.

Everyone wants to live! Dog eats dog

Jim, however anecdotal that story is, it is heartening.

Clock:
Since I'm the one who started this thread and used the word "disgraceful," let me respond.
It WAS disgraceful. Yes: it was a disgrace. I relayed the reasons justifying such terminology. Many respondents pointed out their experiences, which validated this characterization.

HOWEVER, since my post, in recent days, things are greatly improved. I applaud this administration for taking a lousy inherited distribution situation and getting it turned around. I will totally endorse your applause regarding the extremely fast development of the vaccines. That has literally been an amazing and truly life-saving accomplishment.

Mel

I have not posted in a while, but I do read others post, and have been trying to stay out of this one. But I feel the need for a comment.

First, a confession: both my wife and I and most of our friends age 65+, down here in “backwards” MS, have had both of our shots for 2 weeks now. My wife and my friends were very anxious to get them, I felt no need for them. I was more worried about injecting a rushed “vaccine”, which is actually mRNA rather than a traditional vaccine, into my arm than I was about any Covid-19. It will be quite a while before we know about long term side effects. But if I am the only one I know not getting it, what is the point? If my wife and grandchildren and friends all get it, I’m going to be the only one to escape any potential harm that might show up in the future? In addition, we have a lot of European travel planned, and I imagine being able to prove vaccination will be required. So I took the unknown risk and got both shots, but did so with quite a bit of anxiety, and not feeling great about the whole thing. So Iam more like the guy that Tudpock18 mentioned. Y'all feel free to roll eyes.

But I can really relate to the “disgraceful” aspect of this situation, even though IMO it doesn’t have so much to do with the vaccine. I had posted threads starting maybe a year ago about how shameful this situation, regarding the deaths from Covid virus, was. I won’t repeat all of that, you guys all know what those posts were about. There are just too many studies all saying the same thing, and almost none indicating the opposite. At about 15 or 20 studies(in various threads) I finally quit sharing others, because how many does a person need? And people in power have known about these life saving measures for the entire year, and yet there has not been a single announcement from on high, as hundreds of thousands have died, and millions more live in fear.

I see political comments have slipped in. But if we want to talk about disgraceful, I see that both the AMA and APA(pharmacists), in November 2020(on or after the election) quietly rescinded their (effectively)ban on using low dose hydroxychloroquine(HCQ) for early Covid-19 treatment. They said doctors should be allowed to use their judgement in these matters. Well, isn’t that altruistic of them? Now that it is almost over? Now that many studies in other countries have shown the benefits of early HCQ? Just as they already had for so many non-prescription substances? Of Course, we had good studies here from Henry Ford Health, plus the testimony of many individual doctors regarding EARLY treatment. But political hysteria shut all discussion of that down in this country, an MD prescribing or being vocal about that drug could find themselves without work. We even had pharmacists refusing to fill a prescription(what kind of crap is that?) for HCQ unless the docs told them the diagnoses, and it better not be Covid. Henry Ford Health refused to even discuss their study any more, because they got so much flak for presenting their science.

But now, the elections over, and as of November, if your doc wants to try HCQ, no problem! That is so nice of them! So, how many people did that political hysteria kill? Add to that refusing to inform the masses about all the things we could have been taking to put the odds vastly in our favor, and the unnecessary death toll must be vast.

So, I agree with the concept of disgraceful in this thread's title. But maybe more for different reasons than the vaccine. Or, as I have said in my previous threads, many months ago, “shameful”.

OTOH, for the masses who can only feel safe one a vaccine is available, even one rushed thru development in record time, then kudos to the same man who caused a **** storm by confessing-very early on- that his docs had prescribed for him HCQ + zinc. The vaccine was developed- for better or worse- in world record time. But I've got news for you, Guys, another virus is on the way. Variants are already here. We have a flu shot every year, but still 10K to 60K die every year(except this year). They are going to need new vaccines, and we will have to take all of them, they will probably be demanding new shut downs etc. I may or may not be taking any of those vaccines. But I will still be taking the several readily available and cheap substances that science- even in studies not much talked about- have repeatedly shown put the odds in my favor far more than most vaccines ever do. And which at the very least have kept me unconcerned(for myself and family at least, who mostly also take what I take) about the availability of any vaccine. I hope all of you do, and have done, the same.

I see fact checker are already saying it is false that the AMA, as of November, has rescinded their discouragement of HCQ use. I don't know the final outcome, they may not have adopted it, but they at least considered it. But if they didn't adopt it, they should have. Scroll down to page 18:
https://www.ama-assn.org/system/files/2020-10/nov20-handbook-addendum.pdf
"RESOLVED, That our American Medical Association rescind its statement calling for physicians 4 to stop prescribing hydroxychloroquine and chloroquine until sufficient evidence becomes 5 available .......RESOLVED, That our AMA reassure the patients whose physicians are prescribing 18 hydroxychloroquine and combination therapies for their early-stage COVID-19...........clarifying our support for a physician’s ability to prescribe an FDA-20 approved medication for off label use, if it is in her/his best clinical judgement, with specific 21 reference to the use of hydroxychloroquine and combination therapies for the treatment of the 22 earliest stage of COVID-19 (Directive to Take Action); and be it further23 24 RESOLVED, That our AMA take the actions necessary to require local pharmacies to fill valid 25 prescriptions that are issued by physicians"

Of course, I am not a big promoter of HCQ, I think there are other things more effective, things we can do without a prescription, readily available for all. Still, some new studies have shown HCQ to have a big effect when given early, in low doses, especially with zinc. And we knew about it from the beginning. It is one thing of many which would have helped. The entire fiasco has been disgraceful and shameful.

Post Edited (BillyBob@388) : 3/9/2021 8:53:58 AM (GMT-7)

Wings of Eagles said...
BillyBob
I was fortunate to get my moderna vaccine early, I think it was important for me and my family.
I appreciate all your posts, but in so far as HCQ, I know you must have your tons of studies ready, but I see I see that very recent studies show otherwise..I dont want a debate, or go back and forth on studies, just sayin here are two of the latest :
https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/who-strongly-against-hydroxychloroquine-use-for-covid-19-prevention ....we are not monkeys!
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanrhe/article/piis2665-9913(20)30390-8/fulltext
Wingin it

OK, thanks Wings. I appreciate your thoughts and comment. And you are right, I do have a few recent studies, I think I may have posted some of them here earlier. They all involved early use and some with zinc. They showed a pretty profound improvement compared to placebo or usual treatment. And no side effects, none of those deaths we were warned about, just much lower mortality from CV-19.

So while we can usually find another study to support our opinions, my point is: IF experienced doctors thought they saw benefit with this dirt cheap drug that has a great safety record after being prescribed millions of times over a greater than 70( !!! ) year period, why the heck was there outrage over them continuing to so so, with even some of them losing their jobs for mentioning it? Finally resulting in there being no one would go near it, at least in this country?

But doctors give medications off label all the time when they think- in their professional judgement and based on their clinical experience- it will help for whatever. So the question is: why weren't docs allowed to prescribe this drug- with it's long established safety record at low doses- if they thought it would help? Especially when given very early and in low doses? If it didn't help- or didn't help much- at least it was cheap and safe, and we would soon know whether it was doing any good. With it's long history and safety record(I personally know some folks who have been taking it for years with no apparent problems), what was going to be the harm if it didn't actually help or did not help much? It would only cost a few bucks to try it. But OTOH, if it is as helpful as some studies have claimed, and it's use by docs is effectively banned? Which is the situation we have dealt with.

Clearly, the doctors who wrote that resolution for the AMA thought that it should be allowed, at least now, a year later. Their credentials are probably just as strong as Fauci's or any other MDs. Maybe stronger than some because unlike Fauci, they are in the trenches treating patients, trying things to see what might work. IMO, the only reason(that I will mention) there was such a strong reaction against this DIRT CHEAP drug was politics. We all know exactly when it hit the fan against this drug, with some people saying that some one had just killed a lot of people by admitting he had taken this dangerous drug. That is when it became very risky for any doctor to be in favor of trying this drug. That is when pharmacists started refusing to fill prescriptions for this drug unless the docs first provided them with a diagnosis that was not covid. Has that ever happened before? Disgraceful!

Anyway, I'm sure you know that my main point is not HCQ(or even Ivermectine or any other drug), although I still think it is disgraceful that more docs were not allowed to look into using it, hopefully with zinc, in low, safe doses, immediately after diagnoses, or even as a preventative. I only posted about that drug, to make a point, because of the resolution presented to the AMA by some members, but a resolution that did not show up until November 2020!

I think that drug probably could have been very helpful, but it pales in significance compared to all of those things which I have started threads about in the past. Things for which I have a bazillion studies. Things dirt cheap, available to anyone if they want to take them, and things with repeatedly proven very low or zero side effects. Things that, IMO, could have saved most, or at least many, lives. Things that I feel the majority of the population still is unaware of. Even more than drugs like HCQ or Ivermectine or vaccines-- which no one can get unless a doc prescribes them- it is the failure to adequately publicize those(available to anyone) things that is disgraceful. IMO, though I am well known to be a bit crazy- those other things are more important than HCQ, or even vaccines. And with far less risk. But no one is upset about not being able to get those things. Not because they can get them and always could, which is true, but because most people are simply unaware of their potential benefits against infectious disease.

Post Edited (BillyBob@388) : 3/9/2021 1:15:45 PM (GMT-7)

Is it safe yet...please...shhh

Speaking of pills.....
https://www.ibtimes.com/could-covid-pill-stop-virus-its-tracks-3158538

“The pill, Molnupiravir, which is being developed by Ridgeback Biotherapeutics and Merck (MRK), was found to reduce the virus in individuals after five days of treatment in a mid-stage study, the companies announced in a release on March 6.”

BillyBob@388 said...
I have not posted in a while, but I do read others post, and have been trying to stay out of this one. But I feel the need for a comment.

First, a confession: both my wife and I and most of our friends age 65+, down here in “backwards” MS, have had both of our shots for 2 weeks now. My wife and my friends were very anxious to get them, I felt no need for them. I was more worried about injecting a rushed “vaccine”, which is actually mRNA rather than a traditional vaccine, into my arm than I was about any Covid-19. It will be quite a while before we know about long term side effects. But if I am the only one I know not getting it, what is the point? If my wife and grandchildren and friends all get it, I’m going to be the only one to escape any potential harm that might show up in the future? In addition, we have a lot of European travel planned, and I imagine being able to prove vaccination will be required. So I took the unknown risk and got both shots, but did so with quite a bit of anxiety, and not feeling great about the whole thing. So Iam more like the guy that Tudpock18 mentioned. Y'all feel free to roll eyes.

I am very surprised that you did not follow your principles, as laid out in great detail on this forum over the past year, and refuse to be vaccinated against Covid.

1. This thread drifted to the edge of politics, then drifted away from politics, let’s keep it off politics and on topic
2. If we don’t like what a poster posted, let’s just ignore the post.

Thanks