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Posted 10/27/2021 3:34 PM (GMT 0)
Ive pretty much made up my mind, but thought I'd throw this out there anyway. Never know when someone else might be struggling with a similar issue.

Currently i have Traditional Medicare + GHI/Emblem Health Senior Care Plan F supplement. I have no copays, and have not gone into my pocket in 6 years on Medicare for anything other than deductibles. (However with this plan, copays have been instituted starting January 2022)
I pay nothing for this. My wife is a retired NYC teacher and they pick up all premiums, even reimbursing us for the Medicare + IRMMA premiums. Sweet deal.

However now the city has decided, and most of the unions have agreed (back door deals), that they need to save money on Healthcare (long story but irrelevant to the question), and they are moving all 250,000 NYC Retirees into a Group Medicare Advantage Plan, which they say they have negotiated as a custom plan and will be better than what we have currently (which i call BS), offered by an "Alliance" between Emprie Blue Cross and GHI/EmblemHealth.

We are being offerred the choice to opt out, and keep what we have, but would have to pay $191 per month per person, so $382 per couple. (A Facebook group formed and now has over 9000 members and is taking this to court, we won the first round, delaying the opt out deadline)

We are being told that almost all doctors will participate (but they haven't signed up almost all doctors and many are calling their doctors who are telling them they dont even know about the plan.)

The bigger issue (or at least as big) for me is a long list of pre-authorizations required, everything from Colonoscopies to knee replacements to physical therapy, and much much more. I dont ever want a for profit insurance company getting between me and my doctors decisions.
After my first biopsy which was negative, my Uro wanted an MRI when my PSA continued to rise. GHI/Emblem refused to authorize it saying it was not necessary. (at that time i was not yet on Medicare) 18 months later i was diagnosed, with my Uro saying it was likely there during my first biopsy and missed, and the MRI would have probably picked it up. Never again.

So i plan to opt out and pay $382 a month. But many NYC retirees can't afford to do that and i feel for those people.

Anyone else on a LARGE Group Med Adv plan?
Posted 10/27/2021 7:32 PM (GMT 0)
Ken, I know Medicare Advantage plans are not particularly popular on this site but I can tell you that I have had one for over 10 years and my out of pocket savings is now somewhere between $50,000 - $100,000 depending on which supplemental plan I choose for comparison. The $100K is compared to Plan F.

So maybe before you sign up for the out-of-pocket supplemental plan (and don't forget a drug plan), it might be worth it to check on the Medicare Advantage Plans offered out of your Florida address. The plan that my wife and I are on is zero cost, a PPO with almost every doc in SW Florida available, a max annual out of pocket of $8K (including if I use out of network doctors) and a traveling provision for use overseas or another US geographic location. We can see specialists w/o referral, just make the appointment. For major surgeries, e.g. my wife's two knee replacements, we did need to get pre-authorization. But I gladly say we have NEVER been refused authorization for ANY test or treatment.

I must admit that I'm always a little antsy around this time of year, somehow fearing that my decision not to enroll in a supplemental plan 10 years ago will eventually cost us. But I also admit that the $100K in the market has been sweet to have as opposed to paying any medical insurance premiums. Of course there still is some risk involved and I may live to regret our choice but so far, so good.

I know this doesn't compare with the great NYC teachers past deal; my sister-in-law is going thru the same issue now. But the huge retirement paycheck is still intact so I must say I don't feel too sorry for her.

Good luck in your decision making,

Jim
Posted 10/28/2021 1:58 AM (GMT 0)
Thanks for the comments Jim. If i were to decide to do a plan (advantage or supplement) other than one offered by the city of ny, i would lose reimbursement of our medicare and IRMMA premiums, which right now is about 10k annual, so thats something not worth doing.

I am curious how did the advantage plan save you $100K over a Plan F? With a Plan F, i have never taken more than the couple of hundred deductible per year out of my pocket (NOT including drugs, but even that expense out of pocket was less than $100). And thats with Prostate Surgery, and two Cardiac Catheterizations.

I know that even paying the $191 a month each we are better off than most, but its still hard to swallow that , its not what the retirees were promised. But thats another thread, that would probably go in a direction not suitable for this forum, so i wont go there, otherwise i would have to moderate myself LOL
Posted 10/28/2021 2:35 AM (GMT 0)
Tudpock - How much did your wife’s knee replacements cost with your Advantage plan?

There is no right answer to the Medicare plan type, similar to the PCa debates about treatment methods. Every person and plan is different so it just need to fit a persons means and needs as best as possible. All insurance is great until you get sick.

I could get great Advantage plans here that include 95% of all doctors and hospitals, U of MN, and Mayo with $3K out of pocket maximum but they are not free. I choose not to and pay more for the best coverage.
Posted 10/28/2021 3:03 AM (GMT 0)
Prato, count your blessings. I am a retired teacher in Montana and once I retired I was on my own. I could elect to stay on their plan and pick up the premiums for both my wife and I, which I did. When I went on Medicare, the only way to keep her on their plan was to buy my supplemental through them and the only thing they offered was a Type F which costs a bundle but with her pre-exiting conditions we wanted to stay on their plan. She gets Medicare next year and we'll head for the open market. Not only are we some of the lowest paid teachers in the nation, but retirement benefits are minimal.
Posted 10/28/2021 3:53 AM (GMT 0)
When I saw your post title I thought perhaps you had already made the decision to move to Advantage and I was thinking to myself how I was going to talk you out of it.

First, I appreciate that not everyone has the resources to take the Traditional Medicare route. Understood and it's absolutely fantastic that we have two Medicare tracks.

Second, as a financial planner mainly working with retirees I have a number of clients on Advantage plans that are very happy with them. In general, they tend to be people that had similar HMO-type coverage prior to Medicare and this was a continuation of the type of coverage they had. But...and this is a big but...almost all have been healthy, or at the least have not had any health challenges that would require any out of the box medical treatment.

Being a member of this forum has definitely taught me the benefit of looking for the best possible specialists for treatment when you have a serious condition. For those with the resources, I can't imagine anyone forgoing that option by choosing an Advantage plan. While under the right conditions it's possible to go outside the Advantage plan, the last thing that I would want on my plate is navigating that at the same time I was dealing with a serious health issue.

Looking at Jim's post, I realize may be painting Advantage plans with an overly broad brush. But I'm not aware of any Advantage PPO plans here in California with so few (any?) restrictions? I must admit that sounds promising there in Florida. At the same time, an $8K annual OOP is $667/mo, which is more than 3X the cost of the Medigap Plan that Prat needs to pay for, which essentially has a zero OOP. (And I also realize that it's not quite an apples-to-apples comparison and in most years you don't reach the $8K max OOP.)

So yes, while I think Advantage plans have their place and I acknowledge many are very happy with their Advantage plans, I think Traditional Medicare makes more sense for anyone with the resources to go that way. (Says the guy that is still four years away from Medicare...) My two cents on the issue, which is probably all it's worth...
Posted 10/28/2021 1:35 PM (GMT 0)
I'll have to disagree with Michael. I am a retired teacher in Michigan. I have been on a BCBS PPO MediCare Advantage Plan. In 2017 I fell on cement resulting in paralysis/severe spinal injuries while vacationing in Ca. I was in intensive care for 3 weeks and rehab for 7 weeks. I think total bills were over $1 million. I paid maybe under $200. I've had many P/T and O/T sessions and seen many specialists, plus my PC Ga-68 PSMA scans and SBRT. I have yet --until recently -- found any medico not fully accepting my insurance (Dr. Lam just bowed out and is non-participating). What saved my bacon is the annual OOP max.

Mel
Posted 10/28/2021 1:40 PM (GMT 0)
Michael, thanks. I too was a Financial Planner prior to retiring. Most of my clients were on Priginal Medicare.
Like you, I’ve read enough on this forum to feel that MA is fine AS LONG AS YOU ARE HEALTHY. Otherwise, it’s “uh-oh”
As I said, I’m not that concerned about the Do tor availability, although if I had a serious problem that required the highest level of expertise available, it could be an issue. More concerned with the prior authorization issue,


@Vince, NYC Teachers have traditionally had a very strong Union, and so we (my wife being the Teacher) have great benefits. Sadly, the union is throwing retirees under the bus on this, as they know retirees have no vote when leadership is up for re-election. But as I said previously, I know either way we are very fortunate.
Posted 10/28/2021 1:46 PM (GMT 0)
I have stated many times that Advantage plans vary significantly by state. Florida and Arizona plans appear to be the best regarding cost. More than 50% seniors in those state choose Advantage Plans and opt out of Medicare. Here in Georgia they suck by comparison with about double the cost. A much lower percentage use Advantage Plans and when people move to Georgia and have to change their plan they are shocked. I saw this first hand when we moved my mother-in-law from Florida and her co-pay/deductible/drugs out of pocket went fro about $3,100 to nearly $7,500 a year. With her Georgia plan she pays all the up front costs and limitations of a hospitalization under the part A coverage and gets no help from her Advantage Plan until she reaches the out of pocket maximum. Very inferior to the plan she had in Florida.

In my research, Advantage plans are more difficult than traditional Medicare and a supplement when it comes to provider choices and restrictions on networks, need for referrals etc. In these regards, the Advantage Plans generally come up short, but many offer great networks locally. But, I am not aware of any Advantage Plans that give the insured the same freedom of provider choice that a traditional Medicare and Supplement provides. This can be particularly difficult for those with chronic disease that require frequency of treatments and potentially seeking specialists outside the specific Advantage network.

This can also be as simple as wanting to have treatment near a family member or friend for living assistance that is outside your specific network. Let’s say you need SRT for three months and instead of spending the winter in Maine where you live, would like to stay with a friend in Hawaii for the time,in the sun and ocean breezes wearing shorts and flip flops. Under traditional Medicare you get it covered just as you would in Maine, probably at most the annual Medicare deductible of about $200. And you don’t have to ask for permission or get a referral to go. Under your Advantage Plan, you will be looking at paying the out of network costs, thousands. And if it is an HMO plan, probably no coverage at all.

Ken, good luck with the changes and situation. In our profession you and I have seen for decades that when such changes are made with employer/union sponsored plans, they talk a great game, but it is all about shifting cost and risk from the employer/union to the individual. Your deal for traditional Medicare and Supplement is the sweetest I have ever seen. But there are changes coming.

And if you need to search outside the plan for either you or your wife, clearly look at the Florida Advantage plans, but understand when in New York you will be outside the networks for most if not al plans and May pay dearly out of pocket. If you search the traditional Medicare and Supplement (which you can do at any time) I strongly advise to look at Plan N. Cost-wise all in it will be the best in the coming decade especially regarding premium increases.
Posted 10/28/2021 2:37 PM (GMT 0)
@Prato: The math goes something like this. Our costs (for two of us) for Plan F + a drug plan would be about $660 per month. Times 12 months times 11 years = $87,000. Our premiums have been zero. Our co-pays have been minimal and have generally been offset by the free vision exams, free Walmart stuff we get (some years) and free gym memberships (some years). When you multiply this by the fact that all of those savings have been invested in stocks for 11 years then it's way more that $87,000. Of course if I compare it to Plan N the savings are lower.

@Mumbo: The two knee replacements cost us a total of $600. Two nights in the hospital for the first one at $300 per night. The second one was during COVID so costs were waived.

@MichaelT: Yeah, the max out of pocket will only happen if we have a serious illness that needs out of network care. But, even then, it's not much more than I would pay each year for a supplemental plan F + drug plan unless it happened to both of us in the same year.

@JNF: I have the total same freedom of choice that a supplemental plan allows. It's just that if I decide to go out of network, I pay higher deductibles. But in my geographic area it's hard to find an out-of-network doctor or facility since almost all of them opt in to both Medicare and the commonly offered MA plans in this area.

I'm certainly not saying that MA plans are right for everybody. Heck, they may turn out not to be right for me in the long run. But I'm a bit of a risk taker and can take the annual max OOP hit if that happens. I can still pick any doc or any facility that accepts Medicare. But the point I was making - and Mel was making - is that not all Medicare Advantage plans are the same and it's worth doing the analysis to see if one is right for you.

Jim
Posted 10/28/2021 3:42 PM (GMT 0)
One takeaway I have from this thread is that there's a lot of variability in Advantage plans by state. So maybe I should amend my post to add, YMMV. But here in California based on our Advantage options, as of now, I'm plan on going Traditional Medicare when I get there in four years...
Posted 10/28/2021 3:59 PM (GMT 0)
Jim you are confirming what I have been saying about the better Advantage plans. People have to carefully look at the specific plans and networks and they can vary greatly by state. My mother in law had a Florida free plan with about $3,200 in potential annual exposure in Florida, and was generally pleased. But it was an HMO and gave her only emergency coverage when she was out of her local network. One time she went for a doc call in Georgia that was not an emergency and she paid full boat (about $125) and had to return to Florida for follow-up treatment or face thousands out of pocket, cutting short a planned visit. Under traditional Medicare, she would have been fully covered in Georgia or anywhere else. You have an extensive network and that is good. Not all plans do. For me the network is essentially unlimited. If I want to go to Mayo or Cleveland Clinic or MD Anderson or somewhere in Hawaii, it only costs me a one time $20 physician copay and potentially the $200 annual Medicare B deductible. I’m pleased with that. I don’t get a gym membership like you, but Walmart, if I choose is cheap, I just go to Publix instead for pharmacy at the same cost. Works well. And with Medicare I also get the eye exams you mention, but with a $20 copay. Acceptable. As an example I had an opthamalogist visit yesterday (which is normally reimbursed at about $120) and will pay $0. No copay. No direct cost to me. Since I have 8-12 of these a year, the no cost due to my coverage is reassuring. The local Advantage copays would be more like $60 per visit to a specialist.

I am surprised at your estimate of Supplement and D coverage being so high. What company is quoting that? And that was the premium 11 years ago when premiums were about half what they are today? Otherwise your savings are overstated as the amount would change each year with the premium changes. Our G plus D was costing about $300 per month this year month and when F was available it added about $60 per month. We went to a N plan and paired down to right at $200 per month. That is about $25 per month less than our G plan was when we started 6 years ago. So you see what premiums have been doing. Here in Georgia, the best Advantage plan would cost about $120 a month and we would each have a $7,500 per year out of pocket liability. So no financial comparison for us….a no brainer to stay in Medicare and use a supplement.

As I said, in favorable states like Florida Advantage plans are used by the majority and in less favorable states, traditional Medicare and a supplement is used by the majority. I am sure you were having some trepidation when the ACA was proposing an end to Advantage plans…..good for then Sen Nelson for standing up for it. Otherwise we would not be having this coverage discussion. In the current legislation discussed there are potential changes to Medicare, but so far I have not seen anything specific regarding Advantage plan changes. In your shoes, I would want to confirm this with my congressional representatives and let them know my preference.

I have not seen supplement plans costing over $600 per month for a couple, but will look again. Can’t believe any would sell at that price looking at the wide range of companies. I even looked into a G plan for my 92 year old mother in law when she recently moved to Georgia last April and it was priced at just under $200 per month plus about $20 for a D plan. However, her current medical situation of age and A Fib was an impediment when I spoke with the company. If available, the supplement plan would have been much more attractive at limiting her financial exposure versus the Advantage plan by nearly $5,000 per year. And of course, why cite a F plan when it is not available?

So we are both stating the same message….people have to be aware of the differences and do actual comparison shopping and understand the real world differences of coverages in their areas. Thank goodness for the choices we have. I am glad your choice is working for you and that my choice is working for us. Win Win.
Posted 10/28/2021 4:34 PM (GMT 0)
As I said, my Mich BCBS MA plan has been great. I've been to Mayo in Minn, assorted facilities in Ca., extensively as I've mentioned, some Fl consults, and MANY in Mi. ALL have accepted my Plan. Prostate Oncology Specialists (Lam/Scholz) will no longer participate. I suspect I'll have to pay full tab there.

Mel
Posted 10/28/2021 5:03 PM (GMT 0)
@JNF , I agree with everything you are saying. The one thing is though, i can't shop for supplements, because if i go outside a plan offered by the city (plan F with Emblem Health), i lose reimbursement for Medicare and IRMMA premiums, which right now totals about $10k per year. So makes no sense for me to move out of the city offered plan, even if i have to pay $380 a month for the two of us.

@Tudpock, got it. I dont belong to a gym, and at this point doubt i ever will. I have Dental and vision insurance through my wife's union so i dont need that. So i think i am still better off sticking with Traditional Medicare. A knee replacement would cost me zero, outside of the deductible, which is 300 for hospital inpatient.
Posted 10/28/2021 5:09 PM (GMT 0)
Yes, YMMV with any plan. I know two people here in Montana that opted for Advantage plans and then decided to snowbird in AZ. Both ended up with health issues and had to travel back to MT due to being out of network where they were.

When I was diagnosed with prostate cancer my local clinic had lost my biopsy results and didn't notify of their findings. I finally found them in my patient portal and had to use Dr. Google to get an explanation. I couldn't get a call back from urology and when I finally got through they wanted to schedule an appointment weeks away. Being a squeaky wheel got me in sooner and I was told that I had cancer and given a book to read about my options and to call them when I'd made a decision. I ended calling them to tell them I was going 5 states away to Cleveland Clinic for treatment. I did and things turned out fine. I have a Type F supplement and didn't even talk to insurance through this whole thing and by the time it was all over I think I had about $300 out-of-pocket.
Posted 10/28/2021 5:17 PM (GMT 0)

JNF said...

So we are both stating the same message….people have to be aware of the differences and do actual comparison shopping and understand the real world differences of coverages in their areas. Thank goodness for the choices we have. I am glad your choice is working for you and that my choice is working for us. Win Win.

Amen, bro Jack. The comparison shopping is essential. Coincidentally, I was just on the phone with a friend from Grand Rapids, MI who comes to FL seasonally. He has a MA plan in MI with a wide network and the network is wide when he comes to SWFL. Like Mel, he is really happy with his MI plan so I suspect MI is another of the states with good plans. He is a former manager of a brokerage office and has some financial acumen (I hope). Anyway, from your description of GA plans it sounds like I would be screwed if I moved there. Anyway, I've banked some money so far and am OK with my choice...but as I said earlier, I always get a little antsy around this time of year

@Prato: Even though your plan is changing the $380/month for full coverage is a pretty low price to pay. Sounds like that is a good decision considering your circumstances. If they were forcing you into the MA plan it might make sense to explore the FL MA plans. Also, check the fine print on that monthly premium; I'd almost bet that's a first year rate to keep the natives calm...will it go up significantly in future years?

Jim
Posted 10/28/2021 6:34 PM (GMT 0)
Dont know about future years, very possible. But we can change plans every year so we have an out, although not ideal.
Posted 10/28/2021 6:43 PM (GMT 0)
Premiums on all Medicare plans are guaranteed for one year and then the plan is guaranteed renewable. That means they must renew, but can change premium rates, if approved by the state and applied to all members of the insured group.

Always expect health insurance premiums to go up, just like your Medicare B premiums will go up in most years. After all, the cost of the services you are receiving that the third party payor is reimbursing are forever going up. Simple economics.

And, Ken, remember that you can change Advantage plans each year, but you may have significant restrictions on changing into or among Supplement plans as these are medically underwritten, in most cases. Since you are currently using a supplement plan you will be able to go into another when your employer/union sponsored plan changes, terminating the supplement plan and forcing you out of Medicare and into the Advantage plan as I understand your options. In that situation, I understand you can go into go into the guaranteed issue Plan G. If you want a different plan you will be underwritten. Since it would be a new issue, F would not be available as I understand.

As we accumulate more health and treatment experience and conditions at some point most people will no longer be able to qualify to purchase a Supplement plan. Then they are forced to stay with Advantage plans. And with an employer/union sponsored plan you are limited to the plan they use to receive their, hopefully, superior benefits compared to an open market plan.
Posted 10/28/2021 6:49 PM (GMT 0)
For years I have been fed up with all the commercials for Medicare. They want to buy this or that. I have had Medicare Advantage for 10 years now and it has saved me thousands. Total out of pocket is 3500 and that is if they don't cover it. When I had RP it was around 35,000 and I only paid 350 with four days in the hospital. Now this coming year I will be getting back $40 on my SS. I don't pay anything monthly... I do get my meds from the VA
Posted 10/29/2021 12:36 AM (GMT 0)
I might add that group/union Medicare Advantage plans can be better than the individual plans shown on TV this time of year. It is clear that some folks have some pretty nice arrangements compared to others.

The individual Advantage plans in the Twin Cities area run the gamut from not so good to really good. They also can cost from free to $200/mo. The highest priced plans get you no doctor co-pay and no tests/scans co-insurance with max out of pocket of $3000 and many of the TV benefits. Their networks are pretty much almost everyone in MN. The drug plans are middle of the road Part D based. O

The BCBS Advantage plan at my wife’s school system costs $275/mo if she had to pay for it and the big difference is that the drug plan is better than the ones individuals can buy from.

If I was born and raised in MN and had family here, I might have gone for a good Advantage plan since plenty of good care available locally. If I lived in MT like Vince or the Dakotas, I would probably not be able to get a good enough Advantage plan for my needs and would have got a supplement plan like I did here for other reasons. PCa helped convinced me as they happened at the same time.
Posted 10/29/2021 1:08 AM (GMT 0)
Jack, yes, i am aware of restrictions on switching back into a supplement. With that said, i believe NY Law requires that we can go back into Medigap with no underwriting, (not 100% sure) although yes, i would likely not be able to get back the F plan. G would be ok though.
BTW, The max out of pocket on this plan annually is $1470. I'm pretty sure that it means on any covered service, not non covered or non authorized services.

My plan is to opt out this year, and see how things go for others who go with the MA plan, then next year if i think it makes sense, i would consider going in. However, i will need to be able to hear from people who had health issues, because i am sure the plan is terrific when one is healthy. At this stage of life, i shouldnt have too much trouble finding peers with health issues, unfortunately.

So far, i heard today at a live streaming NY City Council Committee meeting, that 20,000 people have opted out, of 250,000 city retirees
Posted 10/29/2021 1:26 AM (GMT 0)

steve0 said...
I do get my meds from the VA


When I retired I applied to the VA for medical. I was denied. They said I made too much money. ***? I'm a retired teacher in MT and what I receive in my pension isn't much. What really gripes me is that I have a half dozen veteran friends who are certainly more well off than I am and they all have VA for their medical. I was told that one is supposed to be less than honest when filling out the forms to avoid the means testing.
Posted 10/29/2021 5:17 PM (GMT 0)
VinceInMT So sorry for your situation. Are you a Vietnam Vet? If so you should be covered for everything. Thanks to agent orange
Posted 10/29/2021 8:38 PM (GMT 0)

VinceInMT said...

When I retired I applied to the VA for medical. I was denied. They said I made too much money. ***? I'm a retired teacher in MT and what I receive in my pension isn't much. What really gripes me is that I have a half dozen veteran friends who are certainly more well off than I am and they all have VA for their medical. I was told that one is supposed to be less than honest when filling out the forms to avoid the means testing.

The thing with the VA is they have 8 different priority groups for eligibility for medical care. Only 3 of those groups have means testing. The other 5 groups provide eligibility regardless of income for veterans who have service-connected disabilities - even relatively minor disabilities that are rated by the VA as service-connected; or were awarded the purple heart for a combat injury, even if they aren't currently disabled; or other veterans who, for example, had service in Vietnam, Gulf War, Iraq, Afghanistan, ... etc.

As for Medicare Advantage, when I retired in 2011 my wife and I opted for a BC/BC PPO Advantage plan because our monthly costs for a decent medigap plan would have been so much higher $200 or more each vs. $80 or so each. It was a risk, but for us it paid off mostly because we didn't have any expensive hospitalizations the would have pushed us to the out-of-pocket maximum (now $4900 per year). Also I had the added safety, unlike most, of the VA as a back-up plan if I needed it. The BC/BS plan has covered my care at Dana-Farber - scans, ADT, etc. - and routine care at UMass Medical Center with out-of-pocket cost to me of no more than a few hundred dollars a year. I get my EpiPen prescription, eye exams, hearing tests through the VA and as an Agent Orange Vietnam veteran could get all medical care through the VA if I should ever choose to go there instead of Dana-Farber (not likely, given I can afford whatever co-pays to stay with D-F).

Also, my wife and I are fortunate to have an added VA benefit not available even to most veterans. When my PCa returned after failed surgery and failed ADT, I received a permanent VA disability rating and that rating made my wife eligible for using the VA as secondary payer after Medicare. So we were able to drop her Medicare Advantage plan (and its $86 monthly premium) return her to original Medicare. The VA covers all co-pays and prescriptions. Ironically she now has a better insurance coverage I do because she is covered virtually 100 percent with any doctor or hospital that accepts Medicare.
Posted 10/29/2021 11:58 PM (GMT 0)
When unions or retirement plans have Medicare Advantage Plans they are better than those offered to the general public because a premium is paid to enhance the benefits for the Advantage Plan.

For prostate cancer survivors the prescription coverage may be the most important part.
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