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UC=caused by infection? Sick gut flora is key component.

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Posted 4/26/2012 2:34 PM (GMT 0)
I really want to generate a discussion that focuses on the root cause of UC.  All the talk about what meds work is great and extremely helpful, but there are really two separate issues that need to be focused on.  IMO:  Meds will hopefully work to help keep symptoms in check and buy some time.  But, the underlying issue still exists and life goes on as a UCer.  Severity of disease will dictate what treatment approach provides relief, if any.  Common sense alternatives can also help most people regardless of condition (diet, exercise, controlling anxiety/stress, supplements, etc.)  But, the underlying issue still lurkes beneath. 

Isn't it fair to say that UCers should take a 2 step approach to this and also focus on stopping the underlying issue?  If science only knows a minority of our guts flora, and the colon is the "organ" that contains the flora, then odds are stacked in favor of the core issue being buried within the majority of unknown flora.  Now, most if not all sicknesses start with an infection.  The bodies immune system attacks the area while inflammation ensues.  Meds or surgery have always been the traditional route of treatment.  Look at past diseases that once killed people...and now are 100% prevented with proper vaccinations and abx.  My point is simply, UCers don't yet have a proper med to fix the problem.  I believe we will someday, but for now, we are somewhat on our own and at the mercy of the current "suppression protocol". 

Therefore, given the unknown and location of disease, I'm saying an infection within the colon's gut flora is a likely cause.  Now, whether the infection still exists or just altered the flora and has now left the body....your still left with a sick colon.  Because of this, your body continually tries to heal itself through the inflammation process.  The guts flora is VITAL in regulating so many functions throughout the body.  It has been called the second brain by world renowned GIs.  So, IMO, an altered gut flora can impact the body almost as much as having brain trauma.  In many respects the two are probably closely related anyway.  

The good news is that it seems like more and more UCers are finding long term, impactful relief, from certain abx/pbx treatment protocols.  Many people and modern science is focusing very closely on fecal transplants now.  Why is this?  Take Cdiff for example....there is a new resistant bacteria strain that is becoming an epedemic.  It is resistant to the current available meds and causes an infection in the colon that creates inflammation and all of the same symptoms as UC.  There is no perfect med yet for this new strain and up until a few years ago....colectomy was the final option.  Today, FT and all of its unknown....stops this infection in its tracks and the colon heals immediately, curing the disease (Cdiff).         

Point being, isn't it completely plausible that UC is linked to a gut flora inbalance?  The odds are definitely stacked in favor of this theory.  Hopefully, we will have a cure someday, a magic pill, like so many others.  It seems like more and more people are talking about abx/pbx therapy these days.  I keep hearing things like "I was sick for years and tried all the meds...before using abx and now I'm fine.  Bottom line, our bodies want to be healthy, they were designed to be healthy.  Science evolves and we become smarter and live longer because of it.  UCers are stuck without a cure right now....however, I propose we look at the disease with a 2 prong approach and focus on the cause as well.  IMO: Focusing on creating a healthy balanced gut flora is a great place to start.     

Post Edited (trojen) : 4/26/2012 1:53:07 PM (GMT-6)

Posted 4/26/2012 3:06 PM (GMT 0)
Trojen,
I agree with you, I always had this feeling that my colitis was caused by either bacteria or a virus. For a long time I was determined to kill it by using oregano oil, then grapefruit seed extract, after that it was colloidal silver. It did not work, but maybe the actual bacteria is mutated into yeast or candida or something else? Or it is just very difficult to kill. Maybe that is why the clay I take works, because it does not care what it is and it actually not killing the bacteria, bu sticks to it, cut the food supply and pulls it out of the body.

For many years people (including science and doctors) did not know what causes stomach ulcers untill in 1980s H. Pylori was discovered...
My experience with German probiotic Mutaflor, that kept me in remission for 1 year first time and 6 months the 2d time showed to me that some strong probiotics can supress the bad bacteria. Unfortenutely, from my personal experience, if you stopped taking it the symptoms of colitis comes back.
If anybody interested, please, read about Mutaflor. The Mutaflor strain was isolated by Professor Alfred Nissle in 1917 during the first world war. As such, the strain was named after him as Escherichia coli Nissle 1917.2 It has been clinically studied and reviewed for over 80 years to prevent and treat an assortment of gastrointestinal disorders.
Unfortunately it is not sold in the USA now for about 2 years because of FDA changing it's classification, but people in Canada and Europe can.
Posted 4/26/2012 3:12 PM (GMT 0)
I think it's totally possible that it's a gut flora issue, at least for some UCers. I'm of the belief, though, that UC is sort of an umbrella diagnosis for more than one disorder that all happen to have the same/very similar symptoms, and that's why some treatments work really well for some, but not for others. At any rate, before I was diagnosed with UC, I started using probiotics (just Culturelle), and my symptoms got a lot better for a few weeks before getting a lot worse again. It was after the recurrence that I finally saw a GI and was diagnosed. So I do think I might have a gut flora issue and that's why I'll always take a probiotic supplement, and will strongly consider doing FT before moving on to immune suppressants or biologics if the mesalamines eventually fail.

lookforcure, I don't mean to be rude, but it's impossible for a bacteria to mutate into a yeast. The bacteria could have easily mutated and the mutation could have resulted in it being resitant to the supplements you were taking, however.
Posted 4/26/2012 3:18 PM (GMT 0)
It might be an infection, or lack of good bacteria,or a shift in bacterial populations from say antibiotics, or veggie oils,or chlorinated water,or not eating enough fermented foods, or refrigeration, or injesting surfactants/detergents,crummy processed diet,lack of trace elements,immune compromise from pesticides/chemicals,not enough saturated fats,too much unsaturated fats. Probably a zillion other things.

As you say abx is starting to become a treatment,FT works, LDN works.
As for me if I dont have the runs, my stool does not really smell at all, this of course is quite odd. My wife who is quite healthy, when she goes to the bathroom smells like it should.
Six months prior to when my son got UC he could clear a room for 15 minutes with a bad sulfur smell. Sulfate reducing bacteria have been implicated in UC. If you chew a pepto bismol tablet your tongue may turn black, this is due to sulfate reducers in your mouth, if you eat enough pepto your stool will turn black from sulafate reducers.
Old Mike
Posted 4/26/2012 4:08 PM (GMT 0)
Fruitgirl,
my phrase:"maybe the actual bacteria is mutated into yeast or candida or something else?", was based on what I have read in one article about Dr. Robert Young's research. I did not say if I agree or disagree with this statement. I said maybe.
Here what was written in the article:
"...Pleomorphic means "many forms". Pleomorphism is the foundation of microbiology, and it discredits the germ theory which traditional medicine believes in. Microforms such as viruses, bacteria and fungi are all the same organism at various stages of their evolution. The first stage of its evolution which is the primitive stage, is what medical science calls a virus. Viruses are apathological. They are actually composed of a microzyme at the core that is protein encapsulated. As the biological environment becomes overly-acidified, the primitive stage evolves to the intermediate stage, and this is bacterial. This culminates in the final stage which includes the yeasts, fungi and moulds. These forms proliferate and evolve in a compromised biological environment such as acidified blood and tissues. Try a very simple experiment: what happens when you pull the plug on your refrigerator? What appears first? The bacterial forms, then the yeasts, funguses and moulds, and all of a sudden everything just decays, which is what occurs in these final anatomical phases."
For more info:
http://www.snyderhealth.com/summary_Young.htm
Posted 4/26/2012 4:28 PM (GMT 0)
Old Mike, I'm just saying if this sickness resides in the colon (gut flora) and the majority of its contents are still unknown, the odds are stacked towards the root cause being in the unknown flora. Thus, an infection caused gut flora inbalance. The ONLY thing that will fix this would be with abx/pbx therapy. Cdiff is just one example of a difficult bacterial infection that takes place in the colon and wipes out the flora causing a cycle of inflammation.
Posted 4/26/2012 4:31 PM (GMT 0)
I think that in the case of the refrigerator, the order in which things appear isn't because one is turning into another, but rather, the life cycle of the organisms are different, and therefore, they are able to be seen at different times. I also think most of the scientific community would disagee with the idea that a virus can turn into a bacteria. It's true that organism change shape or form during their life cycle - for instance juvenille English Ivy looks quite different from mature English Ivy. But it's still Hedera helix.
Posted 4/26/2012 4:45 PM (GMT 0)
Though not strictly a bacteria, but a protazoa. Entamoeba Histolytica was recognised as the cause of my UC, the amoebic infection I am told is now gone or very nearly gone. So the second step is now to deal with the UC as it is at the moment and guide it into remission, hopefully for it to never return. Though whether or not Entamoeba Histolytica can bury itself deep in the colon for an appearance at a later date I do not know.

I am fortunate enough to have had Metronidazole to clear me out (though I certainly don't feel very fortunate during this flare,) I can only hope the underlying causes can be identified in other peoples cases so that hopefully remission can be achieved or even with some good longevity in it. Good luck all!
Posted 4/26/2012 4:51 PM (GMT 0)
I am not a scientist and not not know much about it, this is just what I have read. Considering nobody really knows what causes colitis, it is just a interesting theory. Looking back in history just about every big discovery was ridiculed. Again,I am not saying I agree with Dr. Young. I just do not know, but it is an interesting theory and by no means I am trying to pick a fight with anybody.
One thing for sure, it would be very good if microbiologists, maybe Dr. Young, would look at some colon biopsies of a group of ulcerative colitis patients and see if there are any similarities and tell us once and for all what causes UC. I, personally, would really like for him to look at my colon biopsies and tell me what is going on in there!
Without knowing the cause , it will not be a cure.
Posted 4/26/2012 4:58 PM (GMT 0)
I think you could start with altered gut flora. I am unclear on the benefit of starting with the assumption that an infection alters the gut flora. It seems to me that a virus could have altered the gut flora, and antibiotic could have altered the fut flora, an allergic response to some food/toxin could have altered the gut flora, some condition that alters the pH of the GI track could alter the gut flora .... etc

Depending on genetic susceptibility of the immune system, some people develop an autoimmune reaction to the altered flora. Also (likely also under the influence of genetics and ongoing environmental agents) some people seem to re-establish gut flora balance after an imbalance occurs, and some people do not seem to be able to re-establish balance without intervention (e.g., probiotics), and some people just don't seem to be able to re-establish gut flora balance at all.

Also, it is not clear that all UC is preceded by gut flora imbalance. Consider nicotine implicated UC. It is known that nicotine binds to some of the receptors in the immune systems chain of chemical signaling. The effect seems to be to block some pro-inflammatory messages form getting through. However there are two possibilities: 1) the smoker got UC at some point due to genetic susceptibility and an environmental trigger (likely one that upset gut flora), but the side-effect of nicotine blocked the inflammation and they never knew they had UC, or 2) the smoker does not have UC but once the nicotine is no longer binding to the receptors, this somehow upsets gut flora and they then get UC. It is not clear hoe the removal of the nicotine would upset the gut flora, so the 1st possibility might be favored.

Anyway, considering all the non-infection ways gut flora can get unbalanced, I think you are incorrect to say the odds are stacked in favor of an unknown infection theory. IMO, you are praying it is, that it can be found and killed. You want to believe this. Maybe it will prove true (like with stomach ulcers) but maybe you are simplifying things too much and ignoring facts that don't fit.

I think the more productive discussion should be on the ways gut-flora interacts with the immune system, and on the ways the balance of gut flora can be regulated. I don't see the value in insisting that disturbance of gut flora has to start with infection.
Posted 4/26/2012 5:05 PM (GMT 0)
lookforcure, I am a scientist - I have PhD in plant breeding and genetics, so therefore know quite a lot about the theories behind evolution and how mutations work. I'm not trying to make myself seem super smart or anything by saying this, just so you understand my perspective on the issue. I guess I get frustrated to see (what I consider to be) such a huge departure from accepted scientific theory! :)

And DBwithUC, I agree that a multitude of things could cause the gut flora imbalance - maybe in my case, it was the extreme hormonal changes that occur during the postpartum period that messed up my gut flora.  I mean, who knows?

Posted 4/26/2012 5:05 PM (GMT 0)
colitis has many causes...UC, however, can be triggered by any of those causes.
Since UC is diagnosed through an elimination process, it's many times difficult to realise what the initial trigger may have been if it's left the body.

I, personally, don't think there will ever be a cure.

If one has bacteria, yeast, fungus, virus, parasite, it's definitely possible that UC symptoms can recess or go into a remission if they're dealt with. But, many of those issues can mimic UC, especially if it's universally affecting the colon.

REgarding biopsies, there will be specific changes in the cell structure to state consistency with UC or not. It's always good to have biopsies throughout the colon and not just in the affected areas.

A cause trigger doesn't mean a cause continued, and it indeed wouldn't touch on the tendency levels. Maybe on a DNA testing of individuals and family, but not on a cellular structure level.

My take on it.

q
Posted 4/26/2012 6:10 PM (GMT 0)
According to Dr. Kevin Rioux, a researcher in the field of the genetics and inheritance of IBD, they've known for a while that advanced genetic techniques have allowed scientists to discover at least 9 different gene clusters that contribute to the develpment of IBD and define the severity and behaviour of the disease over time.

Some of these genes encode factors involved in recognition and defense against bacteria. Mutations in immune response genes may adversely affect how the immune system reacts to harmless bacteria and this probably contributes to the development of IBD.

In general these genetic alterations cause the immune system to respond inappropriately to triggers such as intestinal bacteria, resulting in uncontrolled inflammation.

Also regarding the genetics, in IBD it appears that many different genetic defects may be simultaneously necessary to produce the disease. Cells of the immune system are under the control genes that determine the strength, effectiveness and appropriateness of an inflammatory response (this is why no two IBDers are the same, because genetically even with having an IBD, we are all unique just as our symptoms are from one IBDer to another).

Since this research, many many more genes have been found to be linked to IBD (some differ from CD to UC) which is obviously why there are differences between CD and UC besides the obvious that we are all basically aware of.

So it's been know for some time now that bacteria plays a huge role regarding IBD, but there are many other factors to consider as well, the bacteria issue is just one part of the many puzzle pieces.
Posted 4/26/2012 6:19 PM (GMT 0)
I definitely don't think UC is a lifelong illness if you can find the cause of it and fix it. It doesn't make sense that the immune system would continue to attack itself if you found a way to cure the underlying infection/gut imbalance.

I agree that it most like all starts with some sort of infection in the gut, whether viral or bacterial. You go on antibiotics and a little of the good bacteria is lost. This small imbalance can worsen due to diet, smoking, environmental toxins like heavy metals, and medications. Once the imbalance is too big, then problems start happening like ulcers, diarrhea, and leaky gut. It's our bodies way of saying something is wrong- "fix it!"

I also think that genetics does play a role in passing it on. It could be a recessive or dominant gene from one or both of the parents. I don't know if this has been researched, I'm just speculating. My dad has UC, my sister has IBS, and I have UC. My mom's side of the family generally have very healthy digestive systems. Obviously, something in my lifestyle triggered this gene to be expressed (going off of if genetics matter). If I lived a different lifestyle and didn't take so many medications growing up, maybe my gene would never have been expressed because nothing triggered it.

It's fun to think about this though. I hate when my doctors always say "I don't know the cause or how it happens but I can treat the symptoms." Every gastro I've had has told me that because they don't do any research or educated themselves. It drives me nuts that they can't form an intelligent opinion.
Posted 4/26/2012 6:34 PM (GMT 0)
Also from Dr. Kevin Rioux....

Regarding the gentics of an IBD (either UC or CD) it's a more complex disease compared to Cystic Fibrosis for example where they know exactly how it's passed on...with IBD it's more complicated and less understood but here's the breakdown so far;

In IBD it appears that many different genetic defects may be simultaneously necessary to produce the disease. The mathematical pattern of inhertiance that is the case in Cystic Fibrosis is simply not known in IBD, so transmission to offspring is highly unpredictable. If you have IBD, it has been estimated that your offspring will have a 10- to 15- fold increased risk of developing an IBD (either CD or UC) compared with those who do not have a parent with IBD.

Genetic influences that have long been suspected to play a role in IBD are based on the following clues;

1) A significant percentage (~20%) of IBD patients have a RELATIVE that also suffers from IBD.

2) Certain ethnic groups are at substantially higher risk for IBD than the general population.

3) There are extream cases of familial IBD where nearly every family member suffers from the condition.

4) In studies of identical twins, if one twin has crohn's, there is a 40-60% chance that the other twin will also have the disease (it's a matter of it being triggered).

Two important things researchers have yet to discover is , what gene is involved and how that gene is passed on from parent to offspring when it comes to the inheritance aspect of IBD.
Posted 4/26/2012 6:46 PM (GMT 0)
I agree that it's likely not a single gene. There's far too much evidence pointing towards it not being a single gene trait. And really, the gut flora imbalance could be what triggers improper immune response (and therefore, UC) in many people.
Posted 4/26/2012 7:16 PM (GMT 0)
For myself I feel gut flora is an issue. I was first diagnosed after taking a broad spectrum antibiotic for a gum infection. I actually started bleeding while I was still on the antibiotic. That being said, I agree with the notion that there is genetic component as well....a propensity toward UC under the correct circumstances. Circumstances such as antibiotic use and many others. I had also just quit smoking about two weeks prior to this antibiotic use and so this may have made me especially vulnerable. I just hope and pray that my two little guys have inherited there dad's genes with regard to their bowels.
Posted 4/26/2012 7:17 PM (GMT 0)
One of the interesting things for me with UC (and I think Crohn's, too) is the higher rate of disease in first-world countries and northern latitudes.

I don't pretend to have a theory about it - except maybe the over-clean anti-bacterial germophobe nature of first world countries possibly making it easier for the gut flora imbalance to tip towards "broken".
Posted 4/26/2012 7:59 PM (GMT 0)
an empirical observation: first-world countries in northern latitudes ...

correlates with higher (and increasing) UC

correlates with some dietary patterns

correlates with some genetic/ethnic distributions

correlates with some use of drugs like antibiotics

correlates with levels of sunlight, and vit-D

correlates with levels of depression



..... so it is hard to interpret this empirical observation. Possibly several of these associations in combination are leading to more UC
Posted 4/26/2012 8:14 PM (GMT 0)

bananagirl said...
I definitely don't think UC is a lifelong illness if you can find the cause of it and fix it. It doesn't make sense that the immune system would continue to attack itself if you found a way to cure the underlying infection/gut imbalance.
....

It doesn't make sense to say what you say. While most times something returns to normal/baseline after whatever is disturbing it is removed, plenty of times it does not. Consider a spring. YOu stretch it and when you stop, it returns to its original state. But if it gets stretched too far, it is broke and will never return to its original state.

In a way you are saying that it doesn't make sense that the tire does not re-inflate once you have removed the nail.

Consider an abused animal living with a guy that beats it. It learns to jump whenever the guy comes near it. You can relocate the animal into a safe home, and it will still jump. Depending on how smart the animal is, it may eventually learn/forget/unlearn and stop jumping when someone moves toward it. There may even be special therapeutic lessons that might help the undesired learned response go away faster. Some animals, for example large parrots, are almost neurologically incapable of ever forgetting a fear once learned.

The point being that there is a whole range of situations where some acquired behavior or learned reactive response persists even after the original stimulus is removed.

With UC, the immune system has learned some undesirable behavior. In fact, it is the adaptive Th2 helper cells, the ones designed to learn about new threats, that are misbehaving with UC. While it would be nice if the Th2 cells just started acting like they did before whatever it was that set them off, there is no logical reason to insist that they would. It is not that odd a situation if they do not revert back.

What we need is a way to erase whatever undesirable adaptive response the immune system learns in autoimmune. That may exist. There may be a cure. (This is what stem cell therapy is trying to do.)

Also, to return to the spring analogy, some springs do not deform completely. The just get weaker and more prone to stretch easily when given a little tug. I think this might be a way to think about remission. Things you never had to be careful of before, or things you easily weathered before (like a mild sinus infection) can set off your IBD.
Posted 4/26/2012 8:45 PM (GMT 0)
In all fairness, nothing's really predictable when it comes to IBD and that probably will include a "cure"....it's hard to say how the body would react once the disease itself is "removed/cured" from it and also many of us suffer with IBS (irritable bowel syndrom) as a result of IBD so our IBS would have to be "cured/treated" as well for any hopes of going back to what was once normal before we got either IBD or IBS. Wouldn't it be nice if for those of us with both IBD and IBS were cured as a result of our IBD alone being cured....fingers crossed LOL!

In fact I wouldn't be surprised if a "cure" might affect each of us differently (especially if there is IBS issues as well) I would be satisfied enough if I was cured to at least be able to hold it in/have bowel control even if I still had to "go" more than once a day (I'd be happy with 3 max), the urgency and issues with controlling/holding stools in are such a difficult aspect of this disease....it's bad enough with all the other symptoms involved, but it's just plain cruel that many of us crap our pants to boot!
Posted 4/26/2012 9:08 PM (GMT 0)
For those interested, there are a series of interview on youtube with Dr Borody about CD and MAP - he goes into quite a lot of detail as to why he feels CD is infectious, why immuno modulators can still treat the symptoms, why it can run in families, the role of genetics. None of these rule out an infectious cause or component which can be treated with significant improvement if not "cure". UC is a different disease but Borody and several others do feel there is likely an unknown infection at work.
Posted 4/26/2012 9:13 PM (GMT 0)
Fruitgirl: Somehow I could tell you were a scientist.
As far as UC, the incidence of inflammatory bowel disease started to increase in the USA sometime in the 1920's/30's.
So what ever is going on it started before antibiotics or vaccinations,that should narrow it down a bit.
It still could be a pathogen, there is also a higher incidence of inflammatory bowel in married couples,the research doc's are still not sure that it is not contagious. If you will remember this study.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/10/071004121042.htm

Here is a study and it looks like fish oil can down regulate T-bet, from the above study looks like it needs to be up regulated.,Then again fish oil is immune suppressive.

 But I am not up on my biochemistry.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0300908409002673

Going to start a new thread, dont want to hj this one with my wacky ideas.
Old Mike
Old Chemist

Post Edited (Old Mike) : 4/26/2012 4:20:20 PM (GMT-6)

Posted 4/26/2012 9:56 PM (GMT 0)
Old Mike - I figured you were a scientist of some sort too, given your frequent posts of articles. I have to say that I'm glad I know how to dig up info - my old GI (who is only my "old" GI b/c he retired and we moved) and my current GI, as well as my CR surgeon are aware of my background, and I've brought copies of journal articles to appointments with me. Lucikly, they all think it's great.

The higher incidence of inflammatory bowel disease in married couples could be an environmental thing - both happened to have crap genes, and the environment they were in triggered it.

I have to say that it's much easier to work on plants than humans - you can create countless exact genetic copies of plants and nobody really cares if you kill the plants in the process of a study!
Posted 4/26/2012 10:11 PM (GMT 0)

DBwithUC said...

bananagirl said...
I definitely don't think UC is a lifelong illness if you can find the cause of it and fix it. It doesn't make sense that the immune system would continue to attack itself if you found a way to cure the underlying infection/gut imbalance.
....

It doesn't make sense to say what you say. While most times something returns to normal/baseline after whatever is disturbing it is removed, plenty of times it does not. Consider a spring. YOu stretch it and when you stop, it returns to its original state. But if it gets stretched too far, it is broke and will never return to its original state.

In a way you are saying that it doesn't make sense that the tire does not re-inflate once you have removed the nail.

A spring or a tire is not a living organism so it obviously cannot return to its original state if broken. A human body most definitely can return to its normal state if whatever is disturbing it, such as an infection is removed. This is the whole theory behind healing.

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