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Scientists Find Key to Growth of 'Bad' Bacteria in Inflammatory Bowel Disease

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Posted 3/7/2013 4:05 AM (GMT 0)

Old Mike said...
Yes arginine makes me worse. I was at work.
OM

L-arginine makes me go into rinse mode
L-arginine alpha ketoglutarate makes me go into rinse mode

L-Arginine-Ethyl Ester is taken twice daily 3 pills each and has no adverse reaction for my UC. Absorbs easily and gets out of the gut immediately. All pre-workout and post-workouts use the cheap cr@p not the ethyl ester but even they are very popular with the masses.

Currently L-Arginine-Ethyl Ester is one of several vasodilators I take to help my hand which is on backup artery only. Procardia is the primary vasodilator by prescription and makes me sleepy, request for more since it helps the hand was denied because they know it makes you sleepy. L-Arginine-Ethyl Ester is a way to get more vasodilation without the fatigue.

Nitric oxide is is a powerful vasodilator with a short half-life of a few seconds in the blood.

Despite being a simple molecule, NO is an important biological regulator and is a fundamental component in the fields of neuroscience, physiology, and immunology, with discovery of its key roles leading to Nobel Prize winning research in these areas. It was proclaimed “Molecule of the Year” in 1992.
Posted 3/7/2013 4:40 AM (GMT 0)
"colitis is colitis" is not true... Colitis via c diff is much easier to treat than the more complex "non specific" colitis labeled as "autoimmune". I agree fts may be a "cure"... But that is much truer in c diff cases than in others.
Posted 3/7/2013 5:03 AM (GMT 0)
I think FMT could be a powerful repopulator but dont know if it is a cure for many long term.


More on Metalloproteinases
www.doria.fi/bitstream/handle/10024/63351/matrixme.pdf?sequence=1

Post Edited (PathogenKiller) : 3/6/2013 10:22:04 PM (GMT-7)

Posted 3/7/2013 7:00 AM (GMT 0)
I think if you can get them to work, theyre more likely to be long term than most of the other treatments. except maybe strict diet changes that actually work... if you can figure them out and not blunder along the way accidentally.
Posted 3/7/2013 1:11 PM (GMT 0)
@UCThereIsCure

NO - McMaster Hospital and the University of Guelph (which are the two associated with the Canadian study you mention) are not trying to find out why some UC'ers are getting "cured" from Fecal Transplant at all......

Do some more reading...

They are however trying to find out what - if any - remission rates can be obtained based on past success with FT for C-diff. Now they want to know how FT can and will affect those with other digestive diseases such as UC etc or if it will have any effect at all...
Posted 3/7/2013 2:39 PM (GMT 0)
Well their behind Australia because they aren't wondering why, they are treating with success for UC. My GI Simply says it works. Not everyone can afford it though.
Posted 3/8/2013 4:51 AM (GMT 0)
Canada Mark: Yes in McMaster there is a clinical trial for FMT for UC, yeah, they say remission, but other people say they were cured...officially they cannot call it cure, but there are people who were cured from this treatment, because it works for some and it doesnt work for some. Some are cured (no inflammation cells anymore when they take biopsy), so officially they cannot all it cure. Its good that they are even doing clinical trials, even if its for remission, or by fluke chance they are cured like some people, isnt it? I would rather get FMT for remission than taking steroid or immuno-suppressant that are poisonous for my liver and my mental state (steroids are so bad!)

I said colitis is colitis knowing they are different, becase in the past, they were categorizing the colitis as psudo memb. colitis, instead of C-Diff colitis because they didnt know which bacteria caused that colitis. Just like everyone is categoirizing everything as Ulcerative Colitis, even if they dont know which bacteria is causing it. My doctor has admitted to me they have no idea about UC, and they would categorizing everything under UC, when they cannot fall under bacteria related colitis (like Amoebiasis, other pathogen related colitis.) There are some cases that people were misdiagnosed as UC, and when they were put on UC drugs, and symptoms subside (because those UC drugs work on bacteria too), and they get ups and downs (flare and remission.) When they took Steroid they became worse, and I was shocked to find out after 8 yrs of UC medication, the diagnosis became Amoebiasis Colitis...

Some thinks its auto-immune...I dont believe that, the bacteria imbalance cause auto-immune. Some doctors think its auto-immune. Some doctors dont think its auto-immune and related to other stuff.

Basically for UC becase they dont know whats causing it (unknown bacteria/pathogene/virus...etc.), they have to categorize people to UC.

Purely for UC people they dont know the cause of the ulceration appearing in the large instestine.

My point being is that doctors need to wake up, and I wish they stop treating people under the category of UC, by putting people on bandages without getting to the root cause of it. For UC people, it really doesnt matter what better medications come up (just making pharmaceautical companies rich thats all), nothing is going to get better (medicine stops working...) for UC people unless doctors trying to find the root cause of it.

I cannot stop wondering if better energy of those doctors, biologists... resources is spent on finding the the root cause of the UC, than trying to develop better bandages (which is just to patch you up and mask the UC symptoms), sooner the cure would be found, and less people would have to loose colons and quality of life of those people with UC would be better.

I am just so tired of this UC, making my life miserable. Have you not wondered if you dont have UC, you could be not so disadvantaged to deal with this disease? Amont of time wasted for this disease I am overwhelemed...really...sigh.
Posted 3/8/2013 5:48 AM (GMT 0)
Hmmm...IDK, I still think that UC is autoimmune mainly because we know that a bowel transplant won't cure the disease as eventually the immune system will attack a healthy transplanted colon. Another reason I believe there's a link to IBD with the immune system is the extraintestinal manifestations associated with IBD as well (which are considered autoimmune issues as well from my understanding)...If it wasn't simply an overgrowth of bacteria then why wouldn't probiotics alone of FT "cure" IBD.

So I believe that initially it's our immune system working improperly and not recognizing good bacteria for what it is and attacks it as many researchers believe...that and research that highly suspects leaky gut playing a role for many that get an IBD as well.

I was really hoping that stem cell therapy would be the cure/therapy for full remission for IBD....but I think they're many years away yet from perfecting that strategy...if at all.

Then again, what do I know, I apparently barely made it through grade 6 LOL!
Posted 3/8/2013 7:21 AM (GMT 0)
@uctherisacure

"I am just so tired of this UC, making my life miserable. Have you not wondered if you dont have UC, you could be not so disadvantaged to deal with this disease? Amont of time wasted for this disease I am overwhelemed...really...sigh."

I hear ya....

I think we all are - which is why we banter back and forth on a stupid forum about possible causes and crazy treatments in between trips to the washroom... When we could be out living life.

And the disease is as you say, overwhelming at times. It seriously sucks for all of us.

The vast majority of GI's are here with their thoughts on cause:

Crohn’s and UC is thought to result from a hyperactive immune response to antigens in the intestines and may be associated with increased intestinal permeability. Hence the whole autoimmune thing. Autoimmune just being a source term for a crazy whacky, out of control response to a stimulus of some sort.

Some don't agree 100%. Some have a different take altogether. But in general the majority feel probiotics and bacteria seem to come in as secondary effect, not a direct cause. i.e. they can effect symptoms both in good and bad ways but have not shown to be a direct cause as of yet. So this is why all the focus is on immune/inflamation regulating drugs. Due to the success in remissions obtained by these drugs over anything else, they keep digging deeper and are now really focusing in on genetics. So genetic/autoimmune, genetic/bacterial, genetic/evnvironmental toxin - trying to find the right piece of the puzzle.

At the same time, we need to realize that it was only a few years ago (maybe 10) that they thought there was as many as 200 types of bacteria in the human intestine, then 400, then 1000, and now around 10,000 (human microbial project)...

Now factor in the amount af bacteriophages which come in at something like 10,000,000 - 40,000,000 (could be billion, I'd have to look it up) per cubic centimeter of feces or something like that and things get really complex. Then factor in that although there's somewhat common bacterial species found in all of us, the bacteriaphages are quite different and unique to us... These feed off of bacteria, so when you shoot someone else's poop up your butt you 're not only getting a high dose of "their" bacteria but also a truley massive dose of "their" possibly very different bateriphages... Which may help, and may make things worse. Which makes the whole FT thing just that much more complex.

So the drug companies keep making drugs, the doctors keep prescribing, and we keep bantering while sitting on the toilet, and life keeps passing us by...

Fun stuff

Post Edited (Canada Mark) : 3/8/2013 12:24:41 AM (GMT-7)

Posted 3/10/2013 3:46 PM (GMT 0)
CanadaMark: I am more excited about FT now, after hearing about besides the bacteria.
I figured that is why antibiotics and probiotics alone would not work, well people who beleive in FMT says its the balance of it all. I saw Barody curing 6 patients based on one article. Another FMT experimental person cured himself of UC...its the thing out there that could possibly cure UC or put one in a long remission after 11 yrs. 11 yrs without meds sounds pretty good for me, eating what I want.

Talking about Genes I also understand there are cases of identical twins, where one develops IBD and another does not, so I am pretty sure its not just genetics alone.
Its environmental also. Mind and body connection another factor.

"bacteriaphages", interesting topics.
Posted 3/10/2013 4:44 PM (GMT 0)
I have a big thread on nitrates and nitrites in food,it may not just be NO from the immune sys.

Arginine is one pathway for NO.

We are over loaded with nitrate fertilizer,in the veggies.

I know I get worse if I supplement with arginine.

Of course some here are helped with a spinach diet,spinach is loaded with nitrate.

What might be going on,don't know.  But there are two pathways the arginine and the nitrate pathway,for NO.

As far as the study goes, NO will kill bacteria,it may kill off our good bacteria,leaving the e coli to grow

on the nitrate from the NO,wild guess.

Old Mike

Nitrate thread.

https://www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=38&m=2503059

from food and pathways

http://intl-ajcn.nutrition.org/content/90/1/1.full

what else goes on

http://journals.cambridge.org/download.php?file=%2FBJN%2FBJN61_02%2FS0007114589000395a.pdf&code=cff09f8c0d264eed83c2e95bce65491e

from food to circulation to colon

http://www.nature.com/nrd/journal/v7/n2/fig_tab/nrd2466_F2.html

article from a bodybuilding site with references

http://www.musculardevelopment.com/articles/nutrition/2938-dietary-nitrates-a-new-way-of-increasing-nitric-oxide-production.html

My point is that dietary nitrate and nitrite can build up in the blood,excess is removed via the kidney and the colon

also some comes straight through the small intestine.

serum levels active disease

http://www.immunogenetics.nl/publications/publications1995/12SCANDJGASTROENTEROL1995SerumNitrateLevelsInUlcerativeColitisAndCrohnsDisease.pdf

Post Edited (Old Mike) : 3/10/2013 5:20:01 PM (GMT-6)

Posted 3/10/2013 4:55 PM (GMT 0)
UCthereis - It is pretty cool in a lot of ways. Like the twins you mention, the major difference is found within Bacteriaphages - Everyone shares a similar bacterial composition in the "gut" to a degree - but their research has shown that each person - even twins - has their "own" predominant bacteriaphage population which seems to be split between three main types.

Anyway - it's all pretty exciting in a lot of ways - although I look at it differently in that there must be an "environmental" factor to explain things - not just an imbalance of bacteria... Hard to explain without typing forever.

Cure - Long term remission - I think we all agree that either would be totally awesome and how we get there does not matter - just as long as we do.

The thing is - Old Mike sent me something a while ago in regards to another topic. It said that they actually did fecal transplants (or "Normal Fecal Enemas" as they called it) a way back in the late 1940's... If they worked with a high degree of success I'm sure the concept/research would have stuck around.

What I do find funny and frustrating all at the same time is the tremendous amount of time that's been wasted on duplicate research over the last ohhhh 50 years... Research in diet, vitamins, bacteria, and so on have been going on forever all pretty much ending up in the same place anyway... So when a doctor says to me diet has nothing to do with it - I'm always comfortable saying Hey doc... there's 50 years of research on this topic that says otherwise - do some reading :) But in a nice way of course.

It's completely impossible that what we eat cannot affect our "guts" and bodies.
Posted 3/10/2013 5:39 PM (GMT 0)
Hello, all,

I've perused this thread, and many older threads (whose posters don't seem to be active at the moment). I was diagnosed with UC in 2010 and with Primary Sclerosing Cholangitis about two months ago. Since then I've learned about fecal transplants. I got my UC after a year's worth of skin infections and tough antibiotics, so I very much subscribe to the theories of bacterial agency (though they have various subtleties). I'm resolved to do some transplants within the next half year, but have been given pause by a number of stories (some on the older threads on this site) where UC sufferers tried FT and got worse. I'd like to know if anyone here has had that experience--I'd like to have some more information on the potential dangers.
Posted 3/10/2013 5:48 PM (GMT 0)
agramante: One possible cause of UC is that our immune systems have been tricked into destroying one of the good bacterias in our colons, causing a bacterial imbalance and inflammation. If that is actually true then reintroducting more of that one beneficial bacteria could theoretically make us worse because our immune system has been programmed to attack it and by introducing more of it could fire up our immune systems more to irradicate the bacteria. So, if that is true, we are kind of in a pickle because the bacterial imbalance is causing our UC but if we try to rebalance ourselves by introducing more of the bacteria that our immune system is destroying then we are more or less between a rock and a hard place. This would explain why it is that some people do better with certain probiotics and some people do worse with the very same probiotic that makes others better. Since there are literally thousands of both good and bad bacteria it would be near impossible to try figuring out which bacteria exactly is being attacked by our immune system. Of course these ideas are assuming that this is the correct theory as to what is causing our UC. There may also be different causes in different people, which is fairly likely.
Posted 3/10/2013 6:00 PM (GMT 0)

Canada Mark said...
UCthereis - It is pretty cool in a lot of ways. Like the twins you mention, the major difference is found within Bacteriaphages - Everyone shares a similar bacterial composition in the "gut" to a degree - but their research has shown that each person - even twins - has their "own" predominant bacteriaphage population which seems to be split between three main types.

Anyway - it's all pretty exciting in a lot of ways - although I look at it differently in that there must be an "environmental" factor to explain things - not just an imbalance of bacteria... Hard to explain without typing forever.

Cure - Long term remission - I think we all agree that either would be totally awesome and how we get there does not matter - just as long as we do.

The thing is - Old Mike sent me something a while ago in regards to another topic. It said that they actually did fecal transplants (or "Normal Fecal Enemas" as they called it) a way back in the late 1940's... If they worked with a high degree of success I'm sure the concept/research would have stuck around.

What I do find funny and frustrating all at the same time is the tremendous amount of time that's been wasted on duplicate research over the last ohhhh 50 years... Research in diet, vitamins, bacteria, and so on have been going on forever all pretty much ending up in the same place anyway... So when a doctor says to me diet has nothing to do with it - I'm always comfortable saying Hey doc... there's 50 years of research on this topic that says otherwise - do some reading :) But in a nice way of course.

It's completely impossible that what we eat cannot affect our "guts" and bodies.

Mark-

I have a Gi appt in a week, Im looking to "convince" this a-hole that bacteria is a major major player... Then begin the conversation from there. Do easily hve any of those papers I can present to him on diet and bacteria??
Posted 3/10/2013 6:12 PM (GMT 0)
Gary--thank you. I've had similar ideas myself--that the mixture of flora is so complex and can vary so much from one person to another, and similarly so can any population of invading bacteria (and what might be good for some is bad in another)--that in the end, such a complex system implies that any therapy like this might be a crapshoot. I'm particularly interested to know if the folks who got worse didn't have the donor feces tested. After all, I was diagnosed with PSC while being completely asymptomatic (aside from elevated liver enzyme levels). If that's the nature of the beast, then I might just have to steel myself and take the chance.
Posted 3/10/2013 6:33 PM (GMT 0)
Based on research (Dr. Kevin Rioux) regarding the genetics of IBD, if one twin has an IBD (either CD or UC) there is a 40-60% chance the other twin will also develop either form of IBD as well, over time. That's a pretty high chance IMO.
Posted 3/11/2013 1:50 AM (GMT 0)
Regarding FMT, there are tones of people for UC trying.  You can join the Facebook group that is private from the following site:

http://thepowerofpoo.blogspot.jp/ 

There are no. of articles and protocols shared by people experienced.

I am almost tempted to go to the retreat myself.  Before loosing colon I gotta try different stuff and FT by far is better than taking dangeros drugs that are just bandages temporary...

Testing donor is critical, people said you dont want to get other people's problem.

There are people with parasite who are asymptomatic.  You want to avoid donors who have skin problems (skin problems can be developed by eating wrong food, hormonal imbalance...etc), some have kidney infections and they dont know about it, not to mention other incurable conditions that can be transmitted via FT.

I read one person who went through the FT, and got worse, and she was a vegetarian, and she got a doner who was not a vegetarian.

I know to avoid a donor who eats the food that causes you allergies.  The study said to avoid pork, the allergy food for donors at least 3 days before the FT...etc.  Lots of info out there.

Vets even now they do FT to fix some colon related problems for animals, but human GIs they do not.  Now this is sad.  Even for C-Diff there are only a handful of doctors who does FT officially because they are finding that FT cures C-Diff colitis (put one in remission when C-Diff was taking control of their life.)  One doctor said in the youtube, our solution is still the antibiotics when it does not work and FT comes up as the last solution, even if they know FT fixes always in 97-99% with no recurrance after FT.

Now you take the doctor's attitude to FMT when for UC its not proven it may work.  Mine was totally against it and most doctors would be.

When it doesnt work, people suggest using different donors.  Some use their families because FT is personal and a little bit embarassing to ask friends but some articles say that its better to get non-related donors (that is what they do in University clinical trias after they do screening donors.)  One person who cured himself went pretty drastic and he was pre-surgery stage.  You can get all the info. from the internet and blogs.  Lots of people try and get better but doctors are not willing to try.

I am sure whoever cure UC would be the next novel prize winner.  For Peptic Ulcer, two Australian scientists after a long time trial for the breakthrough won a novel prize.

I know clinical trials in Japan showed that they were treating with combinations of 3 antibiotics (AMT methods), and the remission rate increased to 50-60%, 5-6 yrs ago.  This says to me partially bacteria also has something to do with the cause of UC, because if its not for the bacteria antibiotics would not have worked.  I rember before I was diagnosed with UC, I took antibiotics and as soon as I am off antibiotic, my fever came back.  I am certain its realted somehow with gutt flora.  I certainly dont agree with Borody that combining FT with antibiotics, based on genome science centre's study treating mice with antibiotics and doing the FT would not increase the rate of successful FT, to mimic the gutt flora of the donor.

Regarding the immune system, our immune system lies in the gutt.  So I dont think its auto-immune saying our body attacks our own cell to begin with without a cause, it attacks because the gutt flora is imbalance to begin with, and cannot resolve the unknown pathogen that is getting hold of the host.  With a good gut flora a person can resolve itself.  I have never heard that UC person's gutt is incapable to keep our gutt flora in balance and attacks good bacteria.  A person without UC symptoms can resolve the bug itself out of the body, but the person with UC cannot. 

There are quite a few women who are diagnosed with UC they were diagnosed while pregnant and there are theories that our hormonal balance also has to do with UC.

Interesting about genetics.  I wonder if we separate the identical twins at birth, and put them each in a totally different family with different climate and upbringing.  What are the likelyhood of developing IBD.  Hmm 40-60% is not 95%.  What are other 40-60% factors that causes UC?  I understand it has to be the perfect storm.  I wonder what are those factors.  Food is also a key, after all UC is the disease of an industrialized world, loaded with antibiotics in beef, pork chickens, and milk.  I think dairy is not the problem, its the way they feed kettle, they do not eat grass anymore, they feed grains to kettles that cannot tolerate, and needing antibiotics to keep them healthy.  I am sure that as soon as people started to feed food to animals we eat, those livestocks that are so unhealthy to begin with loaded with antibiotics and hormons, that is the problem to begin with.

I hope I was in medicine or biologist to begin with, or got UC when I was teenager, at least I have a passion I can pour into, fixing my own problem because no one would fix this.

 

Posted 3/11/2013 1:56 AM (GMT 0)
UCthereIsCure, I dont think the ROOT CAUSE of UC is "the decreased strains of available intestinal good bacteria that supress the bad guys to minimal, or a balance, like a forest with balanced ecosystem, or savanna with right amount of varieties of animals to keep the balance."

Instead, this is just a factor in how our chronic disease starts. I think there is some foreign invader that is causing decreased strains of good intestinal bacteria.

The immune system has to become out of whack by something> causing inflammation> allowing for an environment that is susceptible to pathogenic bacteria> thus leading to an unfortunate chain of events.
Posted 3/11/2013 2:03 AM (GMT 0)

pb4 said...
Based on research (Dr. Kevin Rioux) regarding the genetics of IBD, if one twin has an IBD (either CD or UC) there is a 40-60% chance the other twin will also develop either form of IBD as well, over time. That's a pretty high chance IMO.

Please stop posting misleading data in the U.C. forum! Are you doing this on purpose or what? Crohn's and U.C. are very different when it comes to genetics. The people with U.C. only care about U.C. genetics, and there is a very much weaker hereditary link for U.C. overall. IBD is a generic term that is not helpful in this instance.

For example in this twin study, 3 times as many identical twins with Crohn's had a twin who also came down with the disease (58% with CD and 18% with U.C).

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11099061

This is the second time you've done it. Please quote accurate data relevant to U.C. or get lost. Sheesh.
Posted 3/11/2013 6:22 AM (GMT 0)
C_G_K: I never tried Imuran because at the time I was in extremely bad flare (doctors standing by to take my colon out) I needed something that worked quickly or I get my colon perforated so they put me on Prograph. They said its 80-90% effective. After 2-3 days my bleeding stopped immediately (oh well besides Prograph I was getting Adacolum at the same time to filter out my whiteblood cell that was overactive to go into remission in a couple of days, and I was on TPN...as soon as I was on Adacolum I got 40c fever and they had to put me on antibiotic then boom I was in remission...) You might as well ask for Prograph instead of Imuran. I was very careful with food (rice porage, no fiber for 1 week...then semi liquid, semi formed to formed without fat at all) One scary thing about Prograph and reducing steroid, I got cytomegarovirus and had to be put on antiviral and went away...
Posted 3/11/2013 6:41 AM (GMT 0)
C_G_K I am posting exactly what is written in my CCFC journal so don't you go accusing me of posting false information. And I know very well that CD and UC are 2 different forms of IBD, my mom had UC and I have CD and as written by Dr. Kevin Rioux identical twins can develop either IBD but it's more likely if one has crohn's the other will develop crohn's as well with a 40-60% chance. Feel free to get lost yourself!
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