Gluten? Does it get a bad wrap? - discusion

I don't know about others, but at this point in time if given a choice between crazy awesome sex OR the ability to eat a real and true sandwich with no effects... I'd totally choose the sandwich!

My sister is a health nut and we got to talking about Gluten. The conversation/debate made me think of a few really odd things and I wanted to get others thinking and perhaps helping us learn something about this terrible thing called "Gluten". Is it really that terrible??

What I was thinking is just about my experiences. If I eat anything whole wheat, or multi-grain etc... I'm toast. In a few hours I have a reaction and the next day is always these disgusting, smelly, floating stools. Like horrid smelling. It's brutal. But one thing I have noticed is that if I eat say a white hamburg bun, or hotdog bun, or even a sandwich on one piece of white bread, I really don't notice much effect. Especially even the next day. Still though, I rarely do this cause I'm scared to try it for more than one day in a row. So I do it like every month or two.

Here are my questions and something maybe people could discuss and possibly look into to help us learn

1) What is the difference between White and say Multi-Grian. Is there less gluten in White bread??
2) Is there maybe more additives in whole wheat and multi grain versus white bread? Or something used in the processing that's different? Something "other" than gluten that might cause a reaction in us? Like more emulsifiers as Old Mike has been talking about? I would think there would be more in processed white bread.

This line of thinking touched off one of the oddest thoughts I've had in ages..

White bread is made that way for shelf life. Fresh bread on the other hand develops mold quite quickly when left out. We throw it away when we see the fuzzies on it! My thought was instead of gluten being the issue or culprit - Is there any chance there is a wheat fungus that could be causing issues instead?? Something that really like to grow on whole wheat....

We know how small bacteria and fungus are - so to even physically see fuzz means there's trillions and trillions of them! What about two or three days before we even see them - well now it's just billions and billions.... which is still huge. Could this be the real cause? Not gluten?

Also I think the fuzzy stuff is fungus or mold - so not bacteria? If it is bacteria then well wheat bacteria problem versus wheat fungus problem. In any case I'm curious about ill effects of this fuzz on us instead of "gluten". Anyone have any knowledge on this? Or papers? Or thoughts?

I think most UC'rs as a whole need to be careful of how much fiber they eat. White breads have less fiber than the grain breads. I think gluten definitely gets a bad wrap. I don't think there is one eyota of proof ANYWHERE that gluten is bad for ANYONE, unless you actually do have an intolerance or sensitivity to it, which very few actually do. Another consideration is the histamine angle I talk about from time to time. It is proven that many UC'rs are low on the digestive enzyme DAO, which helps break down dietary histamines. Excess dietary histamine can cause UC like symptoms. Breads, or anything with yeasts, have more histamines connected with them, some more than others. Many things with gluten in them are actually higher in histamines so people eliminate gluten, get better, and sometimes falsely believe that it was the gluten that was responsible when it was actually either the fiber or the histamines or both.

HuH What: I will go with option B, the hell with the sandwich.

Perhaps too much fine particulates up north,has warped your mind.

I was just reading about afltoxins in food earlier,they don't seem to implicate wheat for this toxin.

One question might be is it bread, or wheat flour in general, I know if celiac then no wheat,but for the rest

what we eat today is not our great grandmas bread. Besides being half chemicals, lots of bakers yeast, as opposed to

a fermentation process with starter,via the sourdough process the starter also contains bacteria.

If you look at the sourdough and celiac papers it becomes really obvious that the problem is modern

production methods and perhaps not the wheat.

OM

http://medicalxpress.com/news/2013-10-foods-toxins-cervical-liver-cancer.html

just remember to eat your greens with your aflatoxin

https://www.llnl.gov/news/newsreleases/2010/NR-10-01-03.html

here you go now have to find the actual studies,but it might look like celiacs can eat sourdough.

http://fyiliving.com/diet/special-diets/allergies-food-sensitivities/celiacs-can-say-yes-to-sourdough-bread/#ixzz2F3gmfbDE

here is one still need the complete studies to see how long the fermentation actually was.

I was guessing that this might be true but never actually looked into it and if it is ok for celiacs then

people with UC might get away with it if normal wheat bothers them, I have made many a loaf

but have not baked in 6 months

http://fyiliving.com/research/hydrolyzed-wheat-products-safe-for-celiac-patients/

well here is the whole paper looks like they fermented for 48 hours,not sure how good the bread would be

I can go overnight,but believe at 48 hours the bread dough would be like water,really digested.

Yet you can keep the live dough in the fridge for quite sometime,it slows everything down

http://www.cghjournal.org/article/S1542-3565(10)00987-0/fulltext

 

Post Edited (Old Mike) : 10/2/2013 7:35:13 PM (GMT-6)

CMark

You'll have to do an experiment on yourself and eat various types of bread and note your reactions.
I'm planning to do a similar test myself but using various ice cream brands.haha

Canada Mark said...
I don't know about others, but at this point in time if given a choice between crazy awesome sex OR the ability to eat a real and true sandwich with no effects... I'd totally choose the sandwich!

I dunno, I'd rather go down on the girl than down on the sandwich

I feel you Mark, I'm not down with all the gluten free cultists on here also...but between sex and a sandwich.... lololololol

Somedude said...

Canada Mark said...
I don't know about others, but at this point in time if given a choice between crazy awesome sex OR the ability to eat a real and true sandwich with no effects... I'd totally choose the sandwich!

I dunno, I'd rather go down on the girl than down on the sandwich

I feel you Mark, I'm not down with all the gluten free cultists on here also...but between sex and a sandwich.... lololololol

I don't believe him either, dude.

I'd still take the symptom free sandwich... Or fresh toast with breakfast!

@OM - I tried a single piece of sour dough bread with eggs for breakfast the other day - the next day the same reaction. Was brutal. Was from the organic store, with no additives, and only like three things on the label salt, yeast and organic flour I think. Was just baked the day before. I had high hopes for it! uggg...

In the past when I was full of Reicade and Methotrexate I only had minor to no issues with bread. It didn't kill me, just gives me "D" on occasion. So I still stay away from it even then. But even thinking to back then - White bread/toast/pancakes/pizza crust etc = no issue - whole wheat/mutigrian etc caused "D"

That first paper on "aflatoxins" is REALLY interesting - especially after reading the post on here today about FT helping someone with MS and re-reading that first article again.

@Imagardener - I like the ice cream idea better to! haha....

@Path.. thanks for posting that... Now I'm super curious.

I've always found this study interesting
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0091674911000662
Since calprotectin is a marker for intestinal inflammation I've wondered if the calprotectin is high because its trying to attack a fungus like aspergillus.

Holy MOLY! Old Mike

I just read this paper you posted /www.llnl.gov/news/newsreleases/2010/NR-10-01-03.html

Here's what dawned on me.

A few nights ago, I stopped at this super fancy restaurant on the way home from work cause they make this roasted chicken and veggies from scratch. So nothing added. But n the menu that night was Bruschetta Bread but made with home made Sour Dough Bread. So i wanted to give it a go and see what happens. Nothing happened and I was perfectly fine the next day. (it was only three small pieces) so about the size of a single normal slice of bread of put together.

The no reaction is what made me go buy the Sour Dough Loaf at the Organic store and try a slice of this toasted with eggs. Which led to a big reaction.

What is the difference between the two experiments????

On the day I tried the sour dough with bruschetta I also had one of there HUGE Cesar salads at the same time! Which is ummm stalks, unbroken or torn up so 3 whole baby romain stalks and leaves. Which is a lot of greens!

The sour dough toast and egg experiment - NO GREENS!

Old Mike is right: the bread we eat today is fermented quickly by adding lots of yeast and extra gluten to make the dough chewy so it can rise quickly without breaking and crumbling. This is cheap and fasr process BUT the result is a heavy dense bread which is very difficult for our bodies to digest.
The bread 40 or 50 years ago was done by fermenting it overnight (atleast) and with minimal yeast.
Also, modern day wheat is VERY different to wheat before. Hybridisation of wheat and the need for a fast way to harvest and process wheat meant that the outer layer of the wheat is almost eliminated so now wheat germ naturally produces extra toxins to ward off pests (where as before that was the job of the hard outer shell).

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0041008X85903941

Thanks Path - that ties into this as well: http://www.journalofanimalscience.org/content/80/12/3257.long (

It appears (although more suggestive then direct proof) they may screwing with the dopamine side. Which is the mystery side that Dr. Stein keeps saying they have trouble with - actually he says they or "we" have trouble with elevated seratonin, but need to address it with lot's of dopamine according to him - hence all the tyrosine etc. Something that blocks or interferes with this side causes very elevated levels of seratonin... according to him. Again when talking to him like a normal guy instead of a doctor type, he swears up and down to me that there's just some mystery "toxin" affecting seratonin levels and he can't figure out where it is coming from, air pollution, water pollution, food additive etc etc.. And things fall apart from here. But addressing it is tricky according to him cause levels of one also affects the other. So it's like a big wonky of of whack loop. And once again he says the best way they have found to try and deal with this is putting the nerve endings into a state where there is equal amounts - or ample amounts of both passing through the nerve endings at all times. So that one is not able to overpower the other... or manual control. Again the problem he says is until they can balance the treatment really screws with us...

who knows...

Brain Neurotransmitter Concentrations
"To the best of our knowledge, no study to date has reported the effect of feeding blends of grains naturally contaminated with Fusarium mycotoxins on brain neurotransmitter concentrations of pigs. In the current study, the pigs were fed a combination of Fusarium mycotoxins and altered neurotransmitter concentrations were observed. Although hypothalamic and pons 5-HT and 5-HIAA concentrations were not altered in a statistically significant manner by the feeding of contaminated diets, 5-HIAA to 5-HT ratios were elevated."

Anyway - again, more all just out of total curiosity here.

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On the Gluten side and more in line with this thread:

I tired Kamut Bread a few months ago but had a similar reaction though markedly less severe. Here is a link to the type of grain www.kamut.com/

Maybe some others who do try grain now and then, a or bounce back and forth depending on flare state would see benefit by switching to this type. I don't know much about it though so it could be another marketing hype sorta thing... There was also only like three or so ingredients listed. So seemed to me like a good option to try to get away from GE or GMO type of thing.

This is worth another read at this point...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3540639/pdf/tacca123000268.pdf

With the following in mind - Neuronal side seratoin levels are controlled/effected by dopamine.