Experiences with Prescript-Assist or any other probiotic containing B. Subtilis?

Evening all.

It would be great to hear how anyone who takes Prescript Assist gets on, or doesn't get on, with it. I ask because it contains b. subtilis, so also interested in anyone taking a probiotic with that strain in it. As it is a bacteria that synthesises B2, which I am reading so much about, would love to hear how anyone gets on with it?

Thanks Joanna for replying. Do you remember what severity of flare you were in when you were taking it? Or were you not flaring at the time?

Thanks for reply and reminder about Natto

People say Natto is an acquired taste. I have never tried it. Maybe it is sold in Japanese shops in London but health food shops go only as far as tempeh here. Shame I can't change the thread title, I would ask about Natto too.

Hmmm, thinking about it I tried vit K pills last year which I think must have been derived from subtilis. I went into a bit of a flare at that time, but don't know if it was down to those or not as I also had reduced my mesalazine a lot at that time.

If the B2 research that precursors of riboflavin can cause flare when synthesised in the colon is true in my case, they could have been a culprit...thinking about it a bit more, K2 is a blood clotter and I always test high anyway for factors that are involved in blood clotting so it could well be that my body does not want anymore of them...just pure speculation

AZ - I see you got adverse reaction from sulfasalazine, me too. I have just posted something on the end of the Riboflavin thread about a study from way back when when they found that sulfa drugs raised Riboflavin

Thanks Stealth. That's great to hear that your teeth etc are improving and generally you have yourself a good regime. Bone health is part of the mystery of my disease ups and downs. I had no fillings as a child, despite dreadful oral hygiene but from late teens on, which is when UC started, my dentist was always confused as to why I had weak teeth enamel and started needing fillings when I was now looking after my teeth and not having high acid foods in great quantities. I also had developed mild osteoepenia about 5 years ago but then the next bone scan, which coincided with a great 3 yr remission from UC on just 2 oral Lialda a day showed that it had resolved (I had also been doing weight bearing exercise in that time).

...and thank you for including that about Kefir batches possibly having subtilits. I just have not been able to tolerate Kefir since I tried it on and off after I had UC and I had a massive reaction last year when I was in the c diff complicated flare, ate some and bowel just went crazy, bled more than I had in years. I wonder now if subtilis is a problem for me and then this could be part of the reason for my first bout of UC after proctitis. I had proctitis age 18, it cleared up perfectly with steroid enemas (1984, proper old fashioned liquid enemas) and I was never told that it might come back or any relation to UC. Age 21 I went to study in what was the Soviet Union, Kefir was a major part of the diet there and I would have had quite a bit, along with lots of bouts of food poisoning as sorry to say, it was unhygienic out there, particularly in our student hostel conditions. I came back to the West, went to the opposite end of the spectrum food-wise in France, got the worst bout of constipation ever and then, hello proctitis symptoms, then took me 3 months to be seen by a doctor by which time I had pan colitis.

I think you have done your DNA screen Stealth if I remember right? I am wondering if the reaction to this is going to depend on some SNPs, and SNPs beyond being homoz for c677t which I am. I was talking to a moderator on one of the MTHFR sites and she said that lots of people with the SLC19A1 SNP (folate transporter) report "tummy issues"

I suppose in theory I need to experiment by loading up with b. subtilis and see what happens. Would have to be off pred though to be able to see the reaction and if it puts me into another flare the GI will not be impressed. Maybe we'll have to be like the guy who infected himself with H Pylori to prove his point that it was implicated in stomach ulcers when no one would believe his research.

Edited to add:
Just been reading a bit more about subtilis. It produces hyaluronan.
aem.asm.org/content/71/7/3747.full Hyaluronan or Hyaluronic acid has been tested a lot for help with osteoarthritis, some helped by it but no conclusive evidence. Just found a study "Hyaluronan Inhibits Dextran Sodium Sulfate-Induced Colitis in a Toll-Like Receptor Dependent Manner" Ling Zheng, Yan Zhang, Terrence Riehl, William Stenson
DSS colitis is what the poor mice get induced in them when they do colitis testing
So - if subtilis is getting killed off, that's one inflammatory substance in the body that you are going to miss...

Post Edited (London Lurker) : 4/5/2014 6:11:18 AM (GMT-6)

I've been taking Prescript Assist for probably about a year and a half now, along with the VSL I was already taking. Since taking it my condition improved enough that I have continued taking it. I really can't tell you any of the nuts and bolts of it though. I think Stealth is right in that the low amount of CFU's in it make it woefully inadequate to take all by itself for UC'rs. The reason I took it was that it seemed to be geared to those who are on antibiotics (normal people) and since I'm almost positive that my UC came about due to broad spectrum antibiotics I decided to give it a try. One weird thing is that when I did the American Gut analysis, the analysis didn't show any of the strains in either the PA or VSL as being in my gut. But, both have made me much better than I was so I'm left scratching my head a little bit over it all.

Just to warn you there is a lot of creativity in the naming of various bacteria strains in probiotics/yogurts and even some of genius classifications used are dated or in dispute. It is really hard to say why many strains are used are used in probiotics because there doesn't appear to be any research on most strains.

B. subtilis is interesting in that it is not a lactic acid bacteria or a yeast like most probiotic ingredients. E. Coli nissle is the only other one I know about that is sold in pills. B. subtilis is found in soil and probably a permanent resident in people. Also interesting that enzymes and by products of its fermentation have been found to be beneficial. It was used to treat diareha before antibiotics.

I wanted to try making natto because it is not dairy and not full of salt like many non-dairy fermented foods. Sounds like it can survive heating to some extent. I had it added to a warm miso soup and it tasted pretty good.

You can buy it on the web in the US and you can make your own using Natto as a seed culture.

www.meguminatto.com/order.html

Post Edited (AZYooper) : 4/5/2014 10:52:05 AM (GMT-6)

Thanks AZY. I am fine with VSL although I find I need to take a break from it sometimes. I have not tried it as a yoghurt starter. That could be an idea. I know the first time I took plantarum it really helped. There is a probiotic here with just acidophilus and plantarum called Tumbiotix and I definitely got benefit from that.

Yoghurt would save money too! The packets cost me £45 for 30 sachets ($75)

I did well with Mutaflor e.coli 1917 (also so expensive) but again, after a while thought it had become too much. I really need to do another stool test to see if beneficial e. coli show in it now, they didn't when I last did one a long time back now. It's an expensive test to do though.

So I too think that maybe just adding a few strains is better. Yet, when you look at FMT, they get every strain under the sun (or from where the sun don't shine!) in there and it seems to help so many

Maybe I should push through the kefir for a couple of weeks and see how it goes. I am wondering if taking something I am usually sensitive to while on steroids will help the body to stop rejecting it. A kind of DIY de-sensitization treatment such as is being done now for peanut allergies that is doing very well in clinical trials.

I loved fish sauce in Thai food when I was out there! It is I believe fermented and a good alternative to salt.

I have not heard of Villi but was reading about Swedish yoghurt, Filmjölk, and wondering if it might be very similar?

I also am taking no supplements now, and am really turning against them as I am pretty sure that my B-complex gave me lots of problems and, as above, I think the vit K did too. Not sure what to do about D as I am deficient but too many scare stories of oral rather than sun derived D giving you calcified veins. I read that vitamin C, Zinc and possibly magnesium deplete cortisol, that's the last thing I need being such a low cortisol producer.

The one supplement I am wondering about going back to is N-acetylglucosamine as I don't think it harmed and did coincide with entering a good period when I last took it. Thinking about this on the back of the reading about subtilis, I have read that NAG also is a producer of hyaluronan, this useful anti-inflammatory substance that maybe I don't get from subtilis if my immune system is having a go at it. I love the idea that we used to get glucosamine from ingesting insects in our food in the days before they were all meticulously cleared out of it. I've commented before on the very high incidence now of UC in people of Indian descent in the area where I live. I have read before theories about how a traditional vegetarian Indian diet has moved very quickly from one which would have been very natural in Indian and included insects who would have got into stored food and cooked up in the food a bit to a "clean" version when moving to the West. I imagine similar for my family heritage from Eastern Europe who went from being poor to affluent in one generation on moving West. I am sure their stored flours etc had a few bugs in there!

I am in a flare but actually doing quite well. UC could be killing off some good bacteria but surely it isn't killing off virtually all of the strains in both of the probiotics I take?

I dont think you can cultivate the right gut ecology until the bad guys are kicked out and the guts are patched back up. to do that, you have to bring in help and supplies and they have to be in a form the body can use easily.

That being said, Prescript assist was constipating to me so I stopped after 1 bottle.