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Zyrtec:Anyone just happen to be in remission while taking

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Posted 10/9/2014 2:52 PM (GMT 0)
I know some here take Zyrtec,just wondering if anyone is in remission while taking or have seen any improvement.

We all know SCD and Paleo diets, helps some people,and exclusion of wheat helps some.

Yet normal allergy testing may not show much.

Ok where am I going with this.

Zyrtec is a histamine 1 receptor blocker,other newer antihistamines may block H2, or even H3/H4.

It also has other anti-inflammatory properties.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cetirizine

We can block the H1 receptors on cells but the mast cells are still degranulating, releasing histamine and all kinds

of other stuff,including TNF-ALPHA.  So enter mast cell stabilizers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mast_cell_stabilizer

disodium cromoglycate UC trial did not work,gee what is going on here

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/105970

Perhaps we need to do both,inhibit and stabilize, gee it seems to work in this person

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1034/j.1398-9995.2001.056005458.x/full

So you have been on SCD and Paleo and eliminated wheat,and your allergy testing is negative

or only a little reaction,and you still have UC.

Enter the COLAP test,which I might suspect few if any here have had.

We found that 15 of 17 patients with various inflammatory bowel diseases were positive to the COLAP test.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1027199/pdf/gut00039-0059.pdf

here is a more modern case study of mast cells and antiallergic drugs in UC

http://www.hindawi.com/journals/ulcers/2013/714807/


vitamin U-This is mentioned in the study directly above,stuff is hard to find derived from cabbage juice, you can make it

in your body from SAMe supplement, but there are also downsides to that, cysteine also supplies sulfhydryl groups

sulfhydryl-containing agents (cysteine and methylmethionine sulfonium chloride [MMSC])

you get cysteine from the diet,but high heat cooking it is deactivated or perhaps even any cooking, ties in with my old maillard reaction threads


http://www.raysahelian.com/methylmethioninesulfonium.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maillard_reaction


sulfur amino acids

http://jn.nutrition.org/content/136/5/1242.long

more sulfur amino acids

http://ymj.kr/Synapse/Data/PDFData/0069YMJ/ymj-45-776.pdf


blockers

https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/jphs1951/73/4/73_4_299/_pdf

since cant get cromoglycate except as nasal or eye drops as a mast cell stabilizer

quercetin may act the same

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:7eqmE5DbHswJ:www.plosone.org/article/info%253Adoi%252F10.1371%252Fjournal.pone.0033805+&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

this guy says cromoglycate not a true stabilizer

http://www.mastcellmaster.com/research.php


not the number but the function

http://www.mastcellmaster.com/documents/2014-02/Mast-cells-IBS-Dig-Dis-Sci-2014.pdf


mast cell nerve axis

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S092544391100130X


H4

http://openventio.org/ArticleinPress/uploads/The_Histamine_H4_Receptor_A_Novel_Target_for_Safe_Antiinflammatory_Drugs_GOJ_1_103.pdf

selenium to upregulate pgd2

http://www.jbc.org/content/early/2011/06/13/jbc.M111.260547


nitric oxide also acts to stabilize

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17160477


Kefiran also acts to stabilize

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22293347


antihistamines also kill bacteria, who would have thunk it

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3768765/




So bottom line, WHAT IF.

My story of the day.

Old Mike

PS: Mast cells also release proteases.  Protease inhibitors also work on UC.

PSS: Might have to watch out for Fexofenadine seems to reduce gastric mucus.

 

Post Edited (Old Mike) : 11/14/2014 8:56:36 AM (GMT-7)

Posted 10/9/2014 3:20 PM (GMT 0)
I've been taking cetirizine for years. Zyrtec is the only antihistamine that gives me total coverage for my seasonal allergies. If I stop taking it during the "off" season I get itchy hands and feet, so I take it year round.
Posted 10/9/2014 3:47 PM (GMT 0)
I'm in remission & take zyrtec, but I don't think for me it's related. I only take zyrtec sporadically as needed & I went into remission prior to using zyrtec for my allergies. Maybe it adds something additional to my remission? That would be a nice added benefit.
Posted 10/9/2014 4:20 PM (GMT 0)
I have been looking for an anti-histamine prescription to ask for over the last while, since I now know that at least in my case food intolerance is ruling any symptoms that occur at the moment. I want to ask my GI in November for a prescription to try one I think.

-----

Levocetirizine, Desloratadine, Fexofenadine All third generation. A while ago you posted this on Fexofenadine:

Exploring novel colon-targeting antihistaminic prodrug for colitis: www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23070081
"In conclusion, the results support histamine involvement in the pathogenesis of UC. This novel, dual acting colon-specific prodrug of fexofenadine is promising as combination maintenance therapy with sulfasalazine for UC."
Posted 10/9/2014 4:22 PM (GMT 0)
cetirizine does not require a prescription.
Posted 10/9/2014 4:46 PM (GMT 0)
Yea I thought I had another thread on mast cells.

Anyhow if you don't read anything else read these two which I also posted above.

Will continue to look into this.  We might have another chicken or the egg, why are the mast cells increased

in UC, at what time point do they come,is degranulation set off by a mucosal breach,or some other reason/diet,

is there such a thing as late onset food/other allergy,or the mast cell protease causing a mucosal breach by dissolving the mucus.

I nor my UC son have allergies that I know about, but brother and daughter have allergies but no UC.

I have taken quercetin with no effect,also

in the past some of the H2 blockers that we can get here OTC,but perhaps not Zyrtec cant quite remember.

Have not tried both at once until starting yesterday.

OM

 http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1034/j.1398-9995.2001.056005458.x/full


this one gives a good explanation of what is going on

http://www.hindawi.com/journals/ulcers/2013/714807/

 

Posted 10/9/2014 5:23 PM (GMT 0)
Now you're kind of going down my road. While the DAO helps me with dietary histamines I haven't much luck with taking the standard anti-histamine drugs. I have tried but if they helped it wasn't very noticeable. I do remember reading a few years ago some people that were treating their UC with anti-histamines, with varying degrees of success.
Posted 10/9/2014 5:34 PM (GMT 0)
My guess is the antihistamine drugs are only blocking one receptor perhaps two in some cases.
So from food or degranulating mast cells there is a lot of histamine around,plus TNF.
Another interesting this is how can a H1 blocker work as in the above study,yet I read that in the
gut there are mostly H3 and H4 receptors.
Might depend on what cells are in the gut when,and with what receptors active.
Also on the number of degranulating mast cells in the gut at any given time.
Since zyrtec has other anti-inflammatory properties,might work better than
some of the newer ones,which I have not looked into much.
Old Mike
Posted 10/9/2014 6:30 PM (GMT 0)
I have been taking it on and off for years. When I developwd UC I wasn't taking it, but I not sure it makes a difference in the UC department. However, it is the only antihistamine that works well for me, I have taken everything out there over the past 30+ years I have been treating my allergies.
Posted 10/9/2014 6:35 PM (GMT 0)
In general both "autoimmune" and most likely "allergy" are thought to stem from an initial infection (Be it bacterial or viral etc). Of course there are other thoughts/ideas (hygiene hypothesis etc etc). A good example is recent progress in juvenile type 1 diabetes (or the kind where babies are born with diabetes as I forget what its really called) demonstrating strong evidence of viral infection of the mother/fetus during pregnancy causing a cross reaction or protein recognition triggering the disease. So the immune system mistakes the viral protein similarities with self-proteins and things go wonky.


No matter what one thinks or believes there is one thing that holds true - In order for something to become an "Immunogen" so an antigen that actually elicits an immune response - It has to FIRST actually breach our barriers at some point.

So for those of us that eat something and develop mucus, or have intense "D" shortly after, or bloat up and so on - we can be sure that at some point in time a component of the food crossed our barrier and got marked as "bad" by our immune cells. Until we either eliminate this food source, or reduce the reaction there's not much hope in healing.

I think a lot of us could benefit from either various antihistamines or elimination diets etc but I doubt our GI's are going to be of much help so we're kind of on our on if we want to try something like this. It does make sense to give it a go though.
Posted 10/9/2014 6:38 PM (GMT 0)
If you follow my reasoning, SCD/Paleo/no wheat helps some.
Antihistamines help some.
But for many it might take antihistamines plus mast cell degranulation inhibitors.
This is for remission not just symptom help.
Old Mike
Posted 10/9/2014 9:03 PM (GMT 0)
I think I've posted this on the WOO/Thyme threads and mentioned it a few times as an alternative to why the stuff might help some instead of acting like an antibacterial - or perhaps even both:

IgE-mediated mast cell responses are inhibited by thymol-mediated, activation-induced cell death in skin inflammation:
www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0091674913019283

There's a few more that can be dug out in regards to gut vs. skin.

Anyway - something else to consider.
Posted 10/9/2014 9:08 PM (GMT 0)
Interesting,cause the mast cells to degranulate then die. You are going to get one hell
of a histamine release,but it seems to indicate no cytokines.
Old Mike
Posted 10/10/2014 4:57 AM (GMT 0)
I'm too busy to read all the replies you've had. But, I just wanted to say that the body pains I have that I attribute to Remicade seem to be lessened some when taking Zyrtec, for what it's worth.

Thanks for always researching for us.
Posted 10/10/2014 2:21 PM (GMT 0)
I forgot to post on the other thread, but I had to stop the double dose the other day. To much leads to loose stool and something that I can't quite describe. At first things were very solid but then they became loose even on the safe diet - so I wonder if it has something to do with effecting the mast cells. Like you say, to much histamine release, cause it reminds me of IBS, minus the urgency and all that associated with IBD. If that makes any sense.

So this is the second time that I have tried increasing the dose and had negative effects.
Posted 10/10/2014 2:33 PM (GMT 0)
Well I guess from the other thread we know that on either side of the proper dose, too much or too little,
will cause a worsening of the condition.
Too bad woo/thyme is so sensitive to concentration effects.
OM
Posted 10/12/2014 7:22 PM (GMT 0)
Haven't taken the oral stuff but I have had a lot of trouble in the past with incredibly itchy, slighty ulcerated leg rashes that tend to start with one spot around the calf or thigh and then spread up the leg. I realised these were hormonally linked as always seemed to start off the same time of the month and they stayed away if I was getting enough B vits and magnesium in my diet. Anyway, back to the point, the only cream I found that helped was an antihistamine. The way the rash crept up in a continuous pattern reminded me of exactly how the GIs describe a UC flare advancing up the colon so I do wonder about histamine playing it's part in flares.
Posted 10/28/2014 8:29 PM (GMT 0)
Looking at this from a different angle. The angle being, where the hell is all the TNF-A coming from.

Will add more later if I locate newer info.

What I am now wondering, since.

"Of particular interest is our finding that approximately 60% of all lamina propria cells expressing TNF-α protein were mast cells, which indicates that mast cells are of considerable relevance within the cell types producing TNF-α in the human intestinal mucosa."

Why not more work on mast cell stabilization/tnf/histamine release,and H1 blockers.

Mast cell tnf will also recruit more immune cells to the site.

Also some may find of interest that the cells are not stimulated much by bacterial LPS/endotoxin but buy the bacteria themselves.

Which would seem to  lend more support to the mucus breach theory.

Old Mike

PS: Any chance no one is pushing a $30/month treatment.

http://gut.bmj.com/content/44/5/643.full

 

Posted 10/29/2014 5:41 AM (GMT 0)
Personally, I have been on Zyrtec well before my UC diagnosis (due to an autoimmune type of allergy, which I developed several years before UC), and have maintained it through my first flare and first remission. In a weird post-flare/pre-flare zone now and still taking it. I don't think it has had any effect on the course of my UC but it is interesting that UC happened to me several years after developing another allergy-related condition.
Posted 10/29/2014 10:39 AM (GMT 0)
Not all UC may be fixable with controlling mast cells.
But from the above studies it seems you might need to do both,block histamine and also stabilize.
From the TNF aspect where large amounts of TNF is released by mast cells it seems to me a different
approach than biologics.
OM
Posted 10/29/2014 1:40 PM (GMT 0)
I keep meaning to post on this thread because I go back to my GI on Nov 2 for my 6 month progress review which I'm excited about. I want to talk with him about maybe trying Fexofenadine or something along those lines. Not sure what to ask for just yet, but I'll have to make up my mind soon I guess.

In regards to mast cells and UC - we know from the mucus threads that well, there isn't much mucus there to begin with so aside from food antigens and such stimulating mast cells there is a also the possibility of direct bacterial stimulation. Here is a decent review on the interactions of mast mast cells and bacteria.

I came upon it as I was looking to find out how a chronic MAP and/or e-coli infection might also effect or change the way mast cells respond to food antigens.

It's a really interesting review actually.
Mast cells: multitalented facilitators of protection against bacterial pathogens
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4070289/#!po=7.95455
Posted 10/29/2014 5:28 PM (GMT 0)
Mark good paper. I seems to me that depending on the mast cell stimulus,they will degranulate,releasing
tnf,histamine and call in other killer cells.
Unless there is really something wrong with our mast cells/immune system they should not, I suspect get stimulated too much in the colon unless there is some kind of a mucus breach. This coupled with the high amount of colonic TNF
being generated in the UC colon from mast cells, really seems to reinforce the mucus breach theory for me.
The age old question still becomes why is the breach not repaired and UC manifests.
So many possible reasons,both known and unknown.

Old Mike

 later mast tnf info IBD mast cells even contain more TNF than normal.So why are they not going after mast cells.

http://ajpgi.physiology.org/content/ajpgi/291/5/G969.full.pdf


as an aside tnf can also be antinflammatory

http://jem.rupress.org/content/207/5/1057.full


also of interest Remicade can destroy TNF producing cells, did not know that.

http://www.journal-inflammation.com/content/5/1/4


early DSS events, I need to read this on carefully,tnf precedes loss of goblet cell mucin

LINK


lean something new everyday,perhaps we are out of balance with tnf inhibiors

http://gut.bmj.com/content/43/2/203.full.pdf

Post Edited (Old Mike) : 10/29/2014 1:03:17 PM (GMT-6)

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