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Discriminating against thin people?!!?

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Posted 5/1/2015 2:49 AM (GMT 0)
I've been mulling this over for a bit now but it still makes me SO ANGRY I thought I'd rant here. Although not entirely uc related it's at least uc adjacent tongue

France passed the law to make it illegal to use a fashion model with a bmi under 18. Period. They feel this will help eliminate anorexia not only in the models themselves but the entire population, whom they believe are all starving themselves to look like these underweight "anorexic" models. This angers and confuses me on so many levels.

First off a bmi under 18 does not mean the person is anorexic. There are many reasons for a low bmi, some of which are healthy reasons, some are just genetics, some are disease related such as IBD and yes, sure, some are definitely eating disorder related. I won't lie, when I was first flaring last year I dropped a lot of weight, I had a bmi below 18. I was sick, scared, and afraid of what my body was doing. I tried desperately to gain weight but couldn't. Even after the meds kicked in, I returned to work, ate healthy and large amounts it still took me over a year to get my bmi above 18 (and to do so I had to resort to eating JUNK which is NOT healthy). I'm offended that this law indirectly labels people like ME as anorexic. Eating disorder had nothing NOTHING to do with my bmi. It's just plain discrimination to say (if I were a model) that I couldn't work in my profession because I had ibd. Not too long ago someone posted a link of a gal with Crohn's, two ostomies and WAS trying to be a working model. She was clearly under a bmi of 18 because of her ibd/surgeries. So, if other countries adopt France's law we are telling her that because of her ibd she's not good enough to model???

The continually pitch this law as promoting "healthy" bodies and "healthy" eating, yet I know many people with, or recovering from ED who have bmi above 18. Does that mean they're healthier than the model who eats properly, exercises effectively and due in part to genetics is a bmi of 17.5? If we are saying we demand our models to be "healthy" why not a fitness test? Why not blood tests to check vitamin deficiencies, why not counsellors performing evaluations to monitor for signs of ED, it is after all a mental illness. While we're on the subject of discriminating models with bmi's outside the "healthy range" why did France not put an upper limit to bmi's for plus sized models? In fairness we're in an obesity epidemic at least as much as, if not more than an anorexic epidemic. There's no law against modelling with a bmi above the healthy range (which I understand can also be caused by many factors other than over eating). I know many many women who are above the healthy bmi who have a very healthy, physically active lifestyle, eat like saints, take excellent care of themselves and then I also know many who are in healthy range of bmi, eat nothing but fast food, no exercise, smoke, etc etc. so....France, don't tell me this bmi thing is about healthy lifestyle. It's discrimination plain and simple.

End rant.
Posted 5/1/2015 3:17 AM (GMT 0)
Ok, id also like to add that this will just reaffirm the stereotype that thin=doesn't eat enough. I can't even count how many hurtful comments I'd get, such as "oh, why don't you just eat a sandwich" or two people would be talking about trying to lose weight, I'd walk by and they'd remark how they wish they could just not eat like her(points to me).
Posted 5/1/2015 4:54 AM (GMT 0)
Im sorry you are so upset by this, tmp! I do feel that it is discrimination to set a size for models to be. Even though i wouldnt want to model, i havent had a "normal" bmi since diagnosis and dont think its fair to not be hired a job based on something i cant control. Im pretty certain most models in france will be out of a job now.

Ive gotten so used to the comments so i dont take them personally anymore. My father is very cruel about my weight and constantly calls me anorexic. You know the truth so just accept that you cant change people's minds and that it really doesnt matter at all what they think.
Posted 5/1/2015 10:44 AM (GMT 0)
Wrong.

Your point that thin does not = malnourished is entirely correct. But we all know that, and in fact that's where the problem lies. Girls don't look at models and think 'oh she must be anorexic to look like that', thin is just promoted as the average, the effortless ideal. Which is what leads to girls feeling there's something wrong with them for not being able to naturally look like that, so they resort to UNnatural means like anorexia. Nobody becomes anorexic because they think that's what models are doing; it's because they think it's possible to look like that normally, and they must be defective for falling short.

Complaining that there's no upper BMI limit sounds like the privileged American kid moaning that jobs don't have quotas for white people. This law is a VERY SMALL STEP in body positivity, there is no way a morbidly obese person would be considered for a modelling job anyway, so the point is moot.

It is NOT discrimination because you cannot discriminate against the dominate group (basic definitions here), and thin people still have social privilege. Spaces are made to accommodate thin people, clothes are made to look good on thin people, thin people are praised for being beautiful and healthier even when they are nothing of the sort. Fat people are not taken seriously by doctors, and have serious health problems ignored because they are told losing weight will solve everything. Fat people are discriminated against MASSIVELY in the job market. So I think not being able to model is a tiny price to pay to level the playing field a little.

Yes, when I had a BMI of 17 I was constantly asked about my weight. But it was either through genuine concern (contrasting when people comment about fat people's weight, because more often than not they just see fat people as lazy) or jealousy. Everyone told me how good I looked and I glowed with pride whenever anyone commented on my weight loss. I hoped to never get remission from UC, so I could always look like this. I refused steroids on numerous occasions, not because they worsened my psychosis or destroyed my bones, but because it would make me fat and that terrified me. Name me one occasion when someone has been so goddarn terrified of getting THINNER (in terms of body image, not health). The weight loss industry is worth $60 billion a year (according to Marketdata Enterprises) which preys on people who want to attain that supposedly normal standard of thinness. France is just trying to redefine normal, because the average person does NOT have a BMI of 18, it's just trying to make fashion more accessible to the average.

I am in remission but still very thin, and readily accept that it would be irresponsible for me to model, even though it was once something I would have liked. This body happened through severe illness, and is not a healthy image to aspire to.

This is a small step. I feel a bmi of 18 is still very thin and a perfectly reasonable limit. I will still be looked at with jealousy for being a size 00 wherever I go. Nobody will ever begrudge me that helping of ice-cream, and I am not judged for my complete lack of physical activity, because I am thin.

This is written by a recovered anorexic, who knows many fat people, and has seen first hand the privilege I have by being thin.
Posted 5/1/2015 10:50 AM (GMT 0)
There's far, far more underweight people due to anorexia than due to IBD. Being underweight also comes with many health risks of its own; it's not any less bad than being overweight, possibly worse.

It is perfectly possible to have a BMI of 18 and have that be your normal, natural weight. Those people are called the 'lucky ones' and are rare in the population - maybe 1% or 3%, I can't quite remember and I'm not googling it. You will know if it's their natural weight if they can eat loads of food and don't put on an ounce of weight.

But the vast majority of women (or, increasingly, men) achieve a low BMI by semi-starving themselves. I'm not counting people with IBD, as that's so obviously a special exception.

Good on France for trying to do something about it.

Post Edited (NiceCupOfTea) : 5/1/2015 1:14:40 PM (GMT-6)

Posted 5/1/2015 10:52 AM (GMT 0)
You wouldn't tell some one "you are so fat", it's just rude also to say "you are so skinny".
I have been dealing with this since being DXed with UC.
turn
Posted 5/1/2015 11:06 AM (GMT 0)
I've been both underweight (not any longer - thanks Pred) and overweight.

I can relate to pretty much everything malaika has said. When I was underweight I developed an obsession with food and calories. I became petrified of weight gain, wanted to lose more weight, etc.

Eventually it was a particular website and going under 6 stone for the first time which snapped me back to reality. I didn't want to die from a heart attack, or whatever. The recovery was made relatively easy by needing to be on steroids all the time anyway, and while I was on steroids I could eat. And I could drink high-calorie liquids.

I don't really like talking about it, because thin is so ridiculously glamourised compared to being overweight or even normal weight (ie. BMI 20-25). If you can't see it, then I suspect you have a case of fat-phobia yourself.
Posted 5/1/2015 12:31 PM (GMT 0)
It's a Catch-22 for sure. Who gets to decide what BMI women working as fashion models must be? Apparently France thinks they get to. I see the next step France deciding what constitutes too high a BMI.

There are many medical reasons people are low weight. Diabetes for example. Not everyone with diabetes is overweight. Some cannot gain weight and cannot eat calorie-rich food because it hurts their blood sugar.

Some people are naturally very thin.
People just love to tell other people what to do. I'm female and when I was teens-20's a lot of older men always told me "Smile, you look sad" when I was just existing happily. Today I'd say "Lose weight you look fat" back to them but at a younger age I said nothing.

To adults: Do not make comments about a girls body…ever. Not even compliments because she'll think that's what is important, how she looks. Say: you like the color of her T-shirt, say she seems to like (name a sport), ask what book she's reading or what movie she last saw. Listen to kids, ask questions, don't impose your opinion on them.

edit to add: I am normal weight (in my opinion) but for my entire life the height/weight charts for insurance said I was overweight even for my height. I disregarded them but always lied about my actual weight because that's what women do. Those charts and BMI are stupid when it comes to me.
I am just fine and they can't tell me otherwise.

Post Edited (imagardener2) : 5/1/2015 6:34:21 AM (GMT-6)

Posted 5/1/2015 4:40 PM (GMT 0)
Why don't we just let people be the shape and size they want to be and if it kills them it's a quick survival of the fittest?

It's none of your business to tell me that I need to eat less or more unless it directly effects you (medical costs [which it kind of does], or if you're prancing around in front of me wearing tight leggings at 300 lbs).
Posted 5/1/2015 6:23 PM (GMT 0)
The above responses are interesting. I think it is what happens when a broad rule is used. A broad rule (or let's use a broad brush stroke as an analogy), is a quick way to paint yourself a picture but the result lacks any great detail. The lawmakers are using bmi as an indicator of whose healthy and whose anorexic and Bmi is too big a brush to use here, as bmi is a terrible measure of whose healthy and whose not (according to most medical professionals). A simple example of where bmi fails is muscle weighs more than fat, so being athletic with a lot of muscle mass can trick bmi into saying someone is overweight, and I am sure those who are particularly lean on muscle mass swing the pendulum in the opposite direction. I am sure there are many other examples.

Is it discrimination against those who are naturally healthy and skinny, yes. The law is stating those below a bmi of 18 are anorexic, and excluding them from modeling as a result. Certainly, stereotypes fail and are generally absolutely wrong in their assumptions. The law is based on a stereotype and qualified using a bad measurement.

I do think that the overall goal of such laws is noble but the execution/rule of the law is poor. Certainly, in that lots of young girls (and a smaller slice of guys/boys) starve themselves trying to achieve a body they cannot achieve (only possible for a small percent of people) and it results in depression and anxiety issues, nutritional deficiency during key growth years, etc for the majority. Could they have done their law using better qualifiers than bmi that would have discriminated against less people, yes.
Posted 5/1/2015 7:12 PM (GMT 0)
I don't consider that discrimination. There is a huge difference in someone who is starving themselves to be a size 0 model and someone who is a size 0 due to medical problems. And let's face it....you're kidding yourself if you think most models don't starve themselves. I've heard it in interviews..,they admit it. Of course some people are naturally thin.

So many impressionable young girls think there is something wrong with them if they're not pencil thin due to this runway model look. I actually read an artical where it was stating a size 8 was considered overweight! Are you kidding me?? I think it's a good thing to see someone doing something about it.
Posted 5/1/2015 9:25 PM (GMT 0)
Seems to be human nature for most, to discriminate in some way or another...not even worth wasting your time getting upset cuz everyone thinks differently and no one can change that...plus it's likely always been that way and will always be...it's what people do, some in their heads and some out loud.
Posted 5/1/2015 9:58 PM (GMT 0)
As an older motherly type who who worries for the girls who think that sex appeal is found in a thigh gap and visible breast bones, I support the spirit of what France is trying to doing though I have no doubt the fashion industry will be all sorts of ways to circumvent the rule (drink a half gallon of water and slouch when they measure you comes first to mind)

As a currently thin and formerly very thin person, I understand your frustration. However, I never minded being called skinny nearly as much as I hated being thought of frail or less capable than my more normal sized colleagues. It was unspoken but very much apparent to me in the way I was treated until I could prove myself otherwise.
Posted 5/1/2015 11:26 PM (GMT 0)
I walk into a clothing store and the person says very loudly, "my god you need to eat"... "or what is wrong with you, the wind is going to blow you over if you're not careful"... etc etc etc etc etc etc etc.... I've heard them all. All out load, very audibly around many people who always 'snicker'... I've even got the anorexic comment out load in front of people as well... In almost every single case the sales person has been overly large.


The problem is not with laws, is not with anorexia, is not with discrimination.... it's purely within the individuals who make the comments to begin with.

1,000,000,000 bucks says if you lined up and looked at all the people that 'championed' the law - you will very quickly see where the problem stems from.

Post Edited (Canada Mark) : 5/1/2015 6:13:30 PM (GMT-6)

Posted 5/2/2015 12:49 AM (GMT 0)
medical conditions are the minority case. the law is about no longer passing off ultra-thin as normal. you do mention some costs of the law to some people, but the benefit to so many will be so much create - because even though it is a small benefit, it is for so so many people.

so many problems in the world, battles need to be chosen carefully - I think you are on the wrong side of this one, even thought you say generally true things
Posted 5/2/2015 1:03 AM (GMT 0)
PS

With ~1 BILLION 'obese' i.e. extremely fat people in the world today according to WHO - one might as well also pass a law making it illegal for fat people to model.......................

To keep things fair and all.
Posted 5/2/2015 11:12 AM (GMT 0)
A misguided albeit well intentioned law but oh no please not the 'discrimination' card. We are a society of children who never grow up and look for someone else to blame when things don't go our way. People need to take responsibility for themselves and their own actions and then the need for such a paternalistic state won't exist. Save the discrimination cry for where is truly exists.

I suspect (no facts) that most overweight and most underweight people 'inflict' this on themselves by what they eat or don't eat. Those with other causes will be at the margins.

I live in France - it was not the first country to pass similar laws but they seem to have gone by unnoticed. Anecdotally (and accepting the broad generalisation) diet here is far healthy than the UK... And to my limited knowledge, that of the States. I see less obesity day to day and France has a lower mean bmi than both the uk and us (according to WHO).

The key thing IMHO is that society needs to change ... Stop buying magazines promoting skinniness as normal, stop giving the impression all women should be counting calories, reduce pre packed crape food full of sugar and high calorie takeaways as staple diets. Eat real food ... Accept different shapes and sizes as normal... Take back responsibility and control and then silly laws like this won't be passed.

Just my opinion ... 😊 from a 5ft 11in woman bmi way less than 18 ... But far too old and knackered to be a model!
Posted 5/2/2015 1:35 PM (GMT 0)

Duffle said...
A misguided albeit well intentioned law but oh no please not the 'discrimination' card. We are a society of children who never grow up and look for someone else to blame when things don't go our way. People need to take responsibility for themselves and their own actions and then the need for such a paternalistic state won't exist. Save the discrimination cry for where is truly exists

So true. We as a society need to stop boo hoo'ing over every little thing and get a tougher skin. It's getting ridiculous.
Posted 5/2/2015 2:49 PM (GMT 0)
It won't change sadly, unfortunately people are discriminated for everything across the globe I'm sure, not just for their size either and that's why we are our own worst enemies because not only do others discriminate against each other, I think many are pretty hard on themselves as well...it's sad.
Posted 5/2/2015 2:53 PM (GMT 0)
"Good on France for trying to do something about it."



yeah
Posted 5/2/2015 4:20 PM (GMT 0)
I also have bmi under 18 (17,44) but i eat enormous quantities of food and just can't put on weight. However, i don't look like an anorectic person, i'm not skinny so i think those French people who have passed such a law should seek a psychiatric consultation
Posted 5/2/2015 8:12 PM (GMT 0)

Canada Mark said...
PS

With ~1 BILLION 'obese' i.e. extremely fat people in the world today according to WHO - one might as well also pass a law making it illegal for fat people to model.......................

To keep things fair and all.

Lol


99.9% of people are unable to model because they are not tall, young, or good-looking enough, regardless of BMI. Go cry a river over that as well, brah.

PS: Obvs you can't eat what you like and obvs your expensive WOO, etc. etc. etc. isn't doing too much. I haven't taken a single supplement, not on any meds, suffering a metric ton of stress, eat like crap, and am still in remission. BMI 25-6.

Post Edited (NiceCupOfTea) : 5/2/2015 2:18:44 PM (GMT-6)

Posted 5/2/2015 8:55 PM (GMT 0)
Obvs I am in full clinical remission via scope now. The remaining issue is simply specific food intolerances.

Sorry you yanked your colon out...
Posted 5/2/2015 9:07 PM (GMT 0)

Canada Mark said...
Obvs I am in full clinical remission via scope now. The remaining issue is simply specific food intolerances.

Sorry you yanked your colon out...

No brah, the surgeon yanked my colon out. I just laid on the operating table.
Posted 5/2/2015 9:19 PM (GMT 0)
I was darn close to having no choice but to do that..... just got lucky I guess.
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