Good read on IBD and MAP

Right now I am getting testing done to see if I am infected with mycobacterium avium paratuberculosis.

I just thought I would share this research report on Healingwell, it's THE BEST explanation of how MAP spreads in populations that I have read to date:

https://gutpathogens.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1757-4749-2-21

Please note that the infectious origin of UC / Crohn's is still greatly debated, however with testing methods now available, the clinical data is mounting.

In people who are told that their UC is genetic, it may not be true. MAP spreads within families. If your parents have it then they would infect you with it as a child.

The data on how large populations develop IBD is very fascinating. As countries westernize, they tend to get UC first (initial MAP infection in adults). After 5-10 years it switches to Crohn's (deeper infection, more long term).

In the U.S. mid-20th century, UC was more prevalent. Now Crohn's is.

I highly recommend reading this paper!

It is never "just" genetic, and this type of reductionist discussion is not helpful at all.

There is *certianly* a genetic component. Most of the IBD genes identified have to do with immune system or other things that make sense.

It is also not a question of gene defect, as gene variant/diversity.

there are microbial, environmental, and genetic factors involved.

I am also interested to hear how you're testing for MAP and who is conducting this. Thanks again.

Yes, I am curious, too.....

I have read this before and remember getting super excited about it. I just read it twice again (once alone, once with partner) and got equally as fired up.

Then deflated again.......because, alas, I still have the darned genetic predisposition and if this IS true----which I am feeling inclined to think it is-----I am already infected. I am already showing the evidence of an infection that is climbing up my rectum into my sigmoid. How can I stop this?

I am currently in remission, and I have been insanely careful and very self-disciplined , but I still know there is a lots of luck involved, because I have seen others here be equally as diligent and still not ever reach a state of remission despite trying everything they can find.

I feel I am at a place where I need to become as educated as possible about this particular bug, and about my personal immune system (and how it is responding to my personal infection) .

I suspect I have a mild case of MAPS.

I live in dairy country and have a river fed lake so close I could throw a stone and almost reach water......I can smell cow manure so many days out of the year. I swim in the lake and the river that feeds in (which also feeds the animals at dairy farms in my area). My dogs are in the river almost daily 6-8 months a year. .but my immune system has always been a BEAST.

Maybe it *could have been* a worse infection otherwise?


My aunt has Crohn's......my mom had diverticulitis......my sister has bad digestive issues like lactose intolerance and other things that look like SIBO at times. We have genes that involve digestive morphisms. No argument there.

My introduction to proctitis happened after a bout of nasty food poisoning.....was that when I was infected? maybe so !

But what do we do about it now? please keep us posted on the results of your tests. It would be wonderful to find out they are working on some way to eradicate this bug/virus/pathogen.

In any case, this topic has been discussed here before ....it's intriguing, but leaves the same questions every time. Here is an interesting thread from 2012 :

https://www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=38&m=2428685

Wow, this stuff is exciting.

Opinions are like noses, we all have one - but I do believe that UC/Crohn's/IBS is ultimately the body reacting to pathogens. I do believe it's MAP in most cases, which is tough to detect and hard to kill.

I think Mesalamine only works reasonably well because it suppresses pathogens, including MAP. Any future treatments that serve us better ought to be based around this theory.

With regards to why some people could tolerate exposure without developing UC/Chrons/IBS, I think it's like any other illness - a lot depends on the strength on your immune system at the time. Like being in the office and being the only guy not to come down with the flu. It could be because you were lucky enough to not be exposed at all or it could be because your immune system was working so well at the time. So I think the immune system does play a part, but only in the sense that if your immune system isn't strong enough to fight early infections 'down there', then the lining of your colon becomes damaged, starting the cascade that leads to IBD. Again this is all just opinion but I do believe IBS is just the boy's somewhat better management of the infection.

In this way, IBS could be considered like a 1st degree burn (micro-inflammation of the epithelial layer)
UC could be considered a 2nd degree burn (inflammation and ulceration of the epithelial layer)
And Crohn's would be like a 3rd degree burn (penetration into the mucosal wall, including muscle)

The issue with MAP and MAP-like infections is that they could come from meat, dairy, even water, depending on your location. Geographically it's the more developed countries that tend develop these 'diseases' so my guess would be that our farming methods contribute massively to the outbreak.

The problem with modern medicine is that we overcomplicate things. Someone says that UC and Crohn's are not the same thing simply because of the differences in locality and depth of the injury, when in reality many people first diagnosed with UC wind up in the Crohn's basket, and the excuse always given is 'misdiagnosis'. The statistics on this is between 12 and 20% depending on what study you read. Similar for starting with IBS and winding up with UC, the statistic is between 10 and 25% (https://www.ueg.eu/press/releases/ueg-press-release/article/new-study-reveals-1-in-10-inflammatory-bowel-disease-patients-are-misdiagnosed-with-irritable-bowel/)

Maybe looking towards very strong antioxidants (with an anti-inflammatory to at least give the colon a chance to heal, considering your running stool through it every day) would be a better research model for the future. Herbs like Qing Day and Grape Seed Extract perhaps aren't strong enough by themselves but if we look into why they help a lot of people, it's a better place to start than immune suppression.

Interesting site Uniform Charlie. I am very hopeful that vaccine comes to fruition.....doesn't this sound great?

"If the vaccine works as well in humans as it does in cattle then there is every chance that it could CURE, or significantly attenuate, Crohn’s Disease. However, it may take time for inflammation to settle and the gut to heal after vaccination in people with longstanding Crohn’s. The vaccine would not be expected to reverse established scarring, such as strictures, at sites of previous active disease."

@Kevin Watson

I do think it's plausible for all three IBS, UC & Crohn's to be caused by the same pathogen. I have a friend who has IBS and she has suffered far more than I have with my UC, so that disease is nothing to scoff at either. In hers and my case, I'd switch out the first two stages of your burn analogy even.

And when you say :

"Maybe looking towards very strong antioxidants (with an anti-inflammatory to at least give the colon a chance to heal, considering your running stool through it every day) would be a better research model for the future".

It makes complete sense, in fact it's the exact reason I have used digestive enzymes the last 3-4months to try and ensure everything passing through was smooth and easy. I think it has helped me reach remission (finally).

^^^ How did you get the blood sample taken? What was the total cost? Thanks.

Yes, I'm pissed too, Canavarel.......it seems certain avenues are not investigated and never will be (I am usually allergic to conspiracy theories, too).......but I am wondering now, say you and Connor77 have tests run and both come back positive for MAP......what then?

Also, if MAP is so elusive.....are the blood tests even remotely accurate?

I am now digging in and I'll spend a few weeks trying to learn everything there is to know about MAP and its relation to IBD. This thread from HW last year is pretty interesting :

https://www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=38&m=3664962

I'd really love to know what U B tough's answer was from John !

Have you also looked into getting tested for klebsiella. It's also thought to be a causative pathogen for CD and others.

Sorry Connor---yes test was "strongly" infected with MAP.

I'm a complicated "case" .....all abx cause me horrific, horrific uncontrollable d. I tried a triple abx last June for CD and Pyoderma and reacted horribly....then immediately following I was diagnosed with fistualizing CD including recto-vaginal a year ago Aug 10, 2016. I've spent the last year doing several surgeries, hospitaizations etc.... We decided to try Stelara first in hopes of stabilization, which it seems to be doing....fingers crossed.
I'm having normal bm's now and am grateful.

If/when I try the triple abx it will be the Borody protocol which is located on the humanpara website. It's also the same protocol used for trials.

Thanks for the post, I'll have to read the link later. Maybe something to bounce of the new doc I have to get soon.

brucen36: I got a stool test about 3 years ago, and they noted klebsiella. I never heard of such a thing, and now you mentioned it. I have a functional medicine doctor, and he honed in on that. I tried some Cipro for a short while but it seemed to make me worse. And much later I read about some really bad possible side effects (tendon ruptures), so I didn't want to take any more. Of course Cipro is different than the triple antibiotics being discussed on this thread.

I thought it was very interesting that someone mentioned klebsiella.

Connor77 said...
My test last year also came up with klebsiella. It's very difficult to treat, resistant to most antibiotics. It's believed that some IBD patients contract klebsiella as an upper respiratory infection, and somehow it travels to their GI where it becomes embedded.

However, last year I took a different triple therapy and cleared klebsiella. That's why I'm investigating MAP now. After a year of really good health I find it highly suspect that I'm back where I started. Something is active again.

Connor77.......do you think that if you were to clear yourself of MAP (supposing you find out it is present) that would eradicate the entire problem, or do you think you'd still have a questionable performing immune system underneath all of this?

I just wonder if you cleared kleibsella, and then cleared MAP......wouldn't you still be in danger of "the next pathogen" or invader?

I sure wish I'd have pursued science instead of art !