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Fecal Transplant and Diet (SCD currently)

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Posted 10/23/2012 9:01 PM (GMT 0)
ohh ok. now i understand about the enzymes. i have never heard of this theory before so it's new to me.

those disposable enema bags look AWESOME! i didn't know those even existed. that would be good so the solution gets dispensed at a slower rate. it was tough to even get a whole FLEET enema bottle in me at first because it filled me up pretty fast (i'm a very small person).
Posted 10/24/2012 12:17 AM (GMT 0)

Dr Briggs said...

What about disposable enema bags? This is what I was planning on using:
www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0016LG9KM?ie=UTF8&tag=digesheali-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B0016LG9KM

I'd rather not have to clean out any FLEET bottles, so being able to just use and toss one of those bags (and tube) is appealing. :)

Looks good, I used those disposable asacol enemas, just emptied out of its contents first obviously and had to cut the opening a bit larger. It worked quite well but I do think you should be seriously careful if doing any cutting of enemas so you don't hurt yourself
Posted 10/24/2012 12:30 AM (GMT 0)

Dr Briggs said...

I'm going to try a tip I learned while being involved in animal rescue operations with the animal shelter I volunteered at for many years - put some Vick's vapor rub under the nose, and that smell can over-power the senses.

It is really not that bad if you get the donation and cover it with saline in the blender quickly. Just make sure you get a blender that is really air tight. Sure I had the window open when I did my transplants but I don't think it was that bad. I guess wiping baby butts for a few years helps in getting used to poop :-)
Posted 10/24/2012 4:09 AM (GMT 0)
We used those same disposable enema bags in my 10 days of FT. We had multiple problems with them getting clogged. That is even after hubby strained it through a dollar-store metal strainer (a pretty fine one). We were never sure why they clogged. Hubby would squeeze the bag to get it flowing again. We kept wondering if it was some weird pressure thing with my body. Finally, husband used a toothpick and sure enough the end was clogged.

I would have the enema bottles handy just in case. If I ever have to do it again, I will try the bottles also. When the bags worked, they worked great. But we had at least 5 days of problems. And we were striving for a drinkable yogurt type of consistency, and straining it!!
Posted 10/24/2012 3:48 PM (GMT 0)

garylouisville said...
Dr. Briggs: I really like the path you are following. I have investigated the biofilm connection myself before and there is some real good science behind this arguement. I strongly believe that the Epstein Barr Virus has been residing in my colon in a biofilm, giving me UC. Unfortunately, there is no known way to irradicate the EBV from your system. I have geared my natural treatments toward combatting EBV but have been disappointed in the results. I have not suffered any "die off" effects from these treatments with the possible exception of one. I took Zymactive for about a week. It contains several different types of protease digestive enzymes aimed at aiding in getting rid of the EBV. My UC got incredibly worse from doing this and I began bleeding every day, several times per day due to this and eventually I had to stop. My symptoms improved after getting off of it. Now you are making me wonder if I didn't panic over my condition as this may have been the "die off" I was actually looking for.


I've definitely had an effect that could be due to die-off from the enzymes - major gas and weird frothy stool. Considering I got it even when taking the enzyme in the middle of the night (which triggered the gas and diarrhea 1-3 hours afterwards), it seems like that was definitely what was causing it.

It didn't give me nearly as much of a problem last night - that could be either because I took less of the enzyme, or there isn't as much biofilm left to eat up.

garylouisville said...
I totally agree with you that physicians are not being doctors although I don't know if the fault really lies with them. They get their schooling and learn that there is no cause of UC and there is no cure so the only thing they can do is treat the symptoms only. Since this is what the book says they don't even make an attempt to figure out the cause, other than testing for C-Diff.


Doctors are largely a product of their education system - and they aren't trained to think like scientists. They are trained to memorize symptoms and the treatments for those symptoms. They are essentially trained to be walking versions of WebMD. The problem is that they then can't do any thinking for themselves.

I think that is why there is such a big disconnect between the gastroenterology research community and practicing gastroenterologists. The researchers have very well established a connection between intestinal bacteria and IBDs, and that diet plays a role (hell, ever since the early 1980s there have been studies in GI research journals saying that low starch diets have been found to help with IBDs) - but practicing gastroenterologists continue to insist that it is purely an autoimmune disorder with no cure, diet doesn't matter, etc. etc.. They were not taught critical thinking skills - they were taught the religion of medicine ("believe this because it's in a book!", rather than the science of medicine.

Post Edited (Dr Briggs) : 10/24/2012 10:15:27 AM (GMT-6)

Posted 10/24/2012 4:05 PM (GMT 0)

bananagirl said...
ohh ok. now i understand about the enzymes. i have never heard of this theory before so it's new to me.

those disposable enema bags look AWESOME! i didn't know those even existed. that would be good so the solution gets dispensed at a slower rate. it was tough to even get a whole FLEET enema bottle in me at first because it filled me up pretty fast (i'm a very small person).

I'll let you know how it goes! Hopefully it won't be too "wet and wild". :)
Posted 10/24/2012 4:06 PM (GMT 0)

curl3d said...

It is really not that bad if you get the donation and cover it with saline in the blender quickly. Just make sure you get a blender that is really air tight. Sure I had the window open when I did my transplants but I don't think it was that bad. I guess wiping baby butts for a few years helps in getting used to poop :-)

Oh excellent, I should be all set then. :) I've wiped plenty of baby butts in the last few years.
Posted 10/24/2012 4:14 PM (GMT 0)

@LoLil said...
We used those same disposable enema bags in my 10 days of FT. We had multiple problems with them getting clogged. That is even after hubby strained it through a dollar-store metal strainer (a pretty fine one). We were never sure why they clogged. Hubby would squeeze the bag to get it flowing again. We kept wondering if it was some weird pressure thing with my body. Finally, husband used a toothpick and sure enough the end was clogged.


Blech, hopefully it goes a little smoother for me. The tubes have two little holes in the end for stuff to come out, right? I wonder if I could just make those a little bigger before getting started, to help cut down on plugging.

@LoLil said...
I would have the enema bottles handy just in case. If I ever have to do it again, I will try the bottles also. When the bags worked, they worked great. But we had at least 5 days of problems. And we were striving for a drinkable yogurt type of consistency, and straining it!!


I do have some of the enema bottles - I'm hoping the bags work well though. Squeezing a bag with some tube coming off of it seems like a better approach than a bottle - the bottle will want to go back to its shape, and try to suck everything back into it.

BTW, PLEASE do not use the phrase "drinkable yogurt consistency" when talking about a poop-slurry. ;)
Posted 10/29/2012 3:34 PM (GMT 0)
So I did a transplant on Saturday and another on Sunday (yesterday). It was a little messy, but overall those enema bags worked great!

The messy part is the prep and the clean-up. I used a blender and then poured the smoothie (yum!) through a metal strainer placed inside a funnel, allowing it to fill up the enema bag. The strainer clogged fairly quickly, so I'd have to pour the liquid in it back into the blender, and then clean the strainer. I cleaned it by smacking it inside a plastic bag (sitting on the surface I was working on), so the particles came out into the bag.

That worked pretty well, but was a little inconvenient.

The other inconvenience: I prepped myself to do the first one Saturday morning, doing an orthostatic lavage (Miralax) to clean myself out. My wife is normally a morning pooper, so we planned around that schedule. ANd of course, she didn't need to poop Saturday morning. She finally did around 3:30 in the afternoon. D'oh!

But, I had cleaned myself out pretty thoroughly, so I was still able to get a lot in there (probably 300 mL total of slushy), and I retained it until 7 am the next morning - about 15 hours!

Yesterday's I only retained for about 7 hours, but that's still pretty good.

I'm planning on just doing weekend transplants, two a week, probably for 5-10 weeks (which seems to be what Borody is recommending now for home transplants for people with UC/CD).
Posted 10/29/2012 5:42 PM (GMT 0)
@Dr Briggs
Great to see that you have started! If your wife doesn't mind then I would suggest asking your wife to eat porridge (rolled oats) in the morning before she intends to donate. Eating porridge every morning will make her a lot more predictable in terms of when she does number 2.

Keep us updated!
Posted 10/31/2012 3:43 PM (GMT 0)
I just had to share this - I think I just made the longest continuous dookie of my life (of course, considering 12 years of UC or CD, I haven't made much other than runny bloody ones for quite a while). Nicely formed, and if it were laid out straight, it probably would have been about 2 feet long. darn!

I'll be doing 2 more transplants this weekend, and also giving some rice a try (testing to see what happens if I eat a non-SCD food).
Posted 10/31/2012 6:06 PM (GMT 0)
great stuff! we love them long dookies. I used to make some really impressive ones close to 2 feet prior to UC when I was eating more non digestible fibres but now they're kind of short from mostly eating fish, meat and veggies.

I even used to come out and tell my wife sometimes but she was never really impressed. Not sure why
Posted 10/31/2012 9:39 PM (GMT 0)
haha! My husband is never all that impressed when I come out and announce a real good, long one. What's up with these spouses?
Posted 11/1/2012 7:50 PM (GMT 0)
I have tried the biofilm protcol:
www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=38&m=2207906

Maybe I will revist it.

mpkb.org/home/pathogenesis/microbiota/biofilm

Post Edited (DanthaMan) : 11/1/2012 2:03:32 PM (GMT-6)

Posted 11/1/2012 7:54 PM (GMT 0)
LOL!
Posted 11/2/2012 3:19 PM (GMT 0)

Serenity Now said...
haha! My husband is never all that impressed when I come out and announce a real good, long one. What's up with these spouses?


I was actually considering grabbing my digital camera to take a picture of it. Hmmm... I wonder if posting that would violate any facebook policies.... ;)
Posted 11/5/2012 4:36 PM (GMT 0)
Update - so far, so good.

I only did one transplant this weekend, Saturday, since I was able to retain it for 21 hours! (by the time I finally had a BM on Sunday, I had another committment such that I didn't have time to do a transplant. Since the first one spent so long in there though, I figure that should make up for only doing one this weekend).

Since everything is going so well, I decided to start adding in some SCD-illegal foods. For now, I just added rice. No problems at all! Woohoo!

My theory, again, is that being on the SCD for ~12 weeks starved off whatever bacteria was in my colon, the enzymes have eaten up their homes (biofilm), and the transplants are now implanting a healthy intestinal fauna. So, at this stage, it should be safe to start moving away from the SCD diet - but I'm going to do it gradually. Just adding rice this week. I haven't decided what I'll add next week. :)

Also, last Thursday marked 12 weeks since my last Remicade infusion, so it should all be out of my system now. Woohoo!
Posted 11/5/2012 8:29 PM (GMT 0)
Great stuff Dr Briggs! Keep on going and keep us updated. I am probably a lot more defensive in my hopes around my illness than you are plus I don't really miss rice. I miss pasta sometimes but to be honest I have kind of gotten used to not eating these type of products. I had some pizza a few weeks ago and it did no difference to my stomach, I just felt a bit bloated from eating pizza :-)

What I like about not eating gluten/wheat based food is that I feel a lot less tired after eating a meal than when I swallow a bunch of lasagna or a pizza
Posted 11/5/2012 8:50 PM (GMT 0)
Yay Dr. Briggs, sounds like it's going well for you! Keep us posted...
Posted 11/6/2012 12:17 AM (GMT 0)
I did a fecal transplant a couple of weeks ago and I had mixed results. I kept it in for 24 hours, then I had really horrible diarrhea with nausea and pain, the next day no poop, and the day after that I had a totally normal stool with no pain, which I hadn't had in months. But then my diarrhea came back and I started to have a lot of colon pain which I hadn't had in a long time, and that kind of scared me. My doctor wants me to try four more FT's spaced over two weeks and I'm nervous about it because of the colon pain, but I think I'm going to go ahead with it. I also have donor issues (as in my donor is the son of an acquaintance and they haven't been totally reliable) so I'm not able to fast or really prepare for the procedure.

Two things I wanted to mention. I know people have been talking about the purpose of SCD being to re-establish healthy bacteria in the gut, but it also has the purpose of giving the digestive system a rest from disaccharides so that the intestinal villi can heal and regrow. I think this may take longer than a few weeks and for me is the reason that I would continue with it even if I did get my bacteria rebalanced.

Also, the way I did the FT (after using an enema tube bag and having it totally clog up) is to cut the end of the tube from the enema bag to a couple of feet and then stick the cut end of the tube onto the end of an emptied fleet enema bottle. This allowed me to use the clip on the tube to control flow, but the tube was much shorter and didn't get clogged.

My doctor also suggested trying to get some human breast milk to drink after the FT as it has all the long chain sugars that are specifically for feeding our gut bacteria. Anyone ever tried this or thought of it? My doc said he'd give me a prescription to get some milk from the local milk bank, but I'd prefer to find someone I know to donate as the milk bank flash pasteurizes their milk.

It is really encouraging to read this thread today. I am feeling pretty discouraged and hopeless about my health right now, but reading some of the success stories here is giving me hope.
Posted 11/6/2012 7:34 PM (GMT 0)

curl3d said...
Great stuff Dr Briggs! Keep on going and keep us updated. I am probably a lot more defensive in my hopes around my illness than you are plus I don't really miss rice. I miss pasta sometimes but to be honest I have kind of gotten used to not eating these type of products. I had some pizza a few weeks ago and it did no difference to my stomach, I just felt a bit bloated from eating pizza :-)

What I like about not eating gluten/wheat based food is that I feel a lot less tired after eating a meal than when I swallow a bunch of lasagna or a pizza


I *love* making stir fries (or eating stir fries at chinese and thai restaurants), so I'd really like to be able to eat rice again. So far it's looking like this will let me do that, as long as things keep going like this.

Pizza is another thing I would *love* to be able to eat again. I can make some decent grain-free breads from almond flour, but every pizza crust I've tried has been a miserable failure. I'm going to hold off for a while though before trying pizza - or probably any grains other than rice.
Posted 11/6/2012 8:30 PM (GMT 0)
Dr Briggs, you can still have your stir fries - at least the ones you make at home. Just don't put them over rice. Same with "pasta" dishes. I rarely ever eat pasta or rice anymore, I put sauce/stir fries/whatever over spaghetti squash. I figured out it's not the pasta or rice I enjoy, it's the stuff that I put on top of it.
Posted 11/7/2012 8:03 AM (GMT 0)
Ill tell you something I would miss if I couldn't eat: mussels! Freshly steam cooked green lipped New Zealand mussels! Soooo good! I have them on the weekends, they are really cheap here and they are big but still takes around 30ish mussels to make me satisfied. Add some dry white wine and I'm in heaven
Posted 11/7/2012 1:36 PM (GMT 0)
I like to use spaghetti squash as noodles too. Zucchini cut into thin strips works as noodles as well. I really like pesto over zucchini.
Posted 11/7/2012 4:32 PM (GMT 0)

upanashad said...
I did a fecal transplant a couple of weeks ago and I had mixed results. I kept it in for 24 hours, then I had really horrible diarrhea with nausea and pain, the next day no poop, and the day after that I had a totally normal stool with no pain, which I hadn't had in months. But then my diarrhea came back and I started to have a lot of colon pain which I hadn't had in a long time, and that kind of scared me. My doctor wants me to try four more FT's spaced over two weeks and I'm nervous about it because of the colon pain, but I think I'm going to go ahead with it. I also have donor issues (as in my donor is the son of an acquaintance and they haven't been totally reliable) so I'm not able to fast or really prepare for the procedure.


The colon pain is interesting. It seems like there could be somewhat of a battle going on in our intestines due to the transplant, as the implanted bacteria try to displace the resident bacteria.

Your diarrhea coming back isn't all that surprising - it seems like with UC and CD, it takes repetitive transplants over time to fully "cure" the problem, probably because of a combination of difficulty with displacing the resident bacteria (especially since some types of invasive bacteria can implant spores in the intestinal walls, allowing them to come back, and also some build a strong biofilm to protect themselves and keep other bacteria from taking root).

I'm expecting to keep doing transplants for probably 6-10 weeks.


upanashad said...
Two things I wanted to mention. I know people have been talking about the purpose of SCD being to re-establish healthy bacteria in the gut, but it also has the purpose of giving the digestive system a rest from disaccharides so that the intestinal villi can heal and regrow. I think this may take longer than a few weeks and for me is the reason that I would continue with it even if I did get my bacteria rebalanced.


That's a good point. I think that how much healing is needed depends on how long you have had active problems, as continual mucus production and inflamation damage the villi. In my case, the Remicade has kept the inflammation and mucus production at bay for the past 8 years. I don't know if that would have helped the villi heal some or not.

With the diet, I'm going to proceed very cautiously as far as introducing SCD illegals.

upanashad said...
My doctor also suggested trying to get some human breast milk to drink after the FT as it has all the long chain sugars that are specifically for feeding our gut bacteria. Anyone ever tried this or thought of it? My doc said he'd give me a prescription to get some milk from the local milk bank, but I'd prefer to find someone I know to donate as the milk bank flash pasteurizes their milk.


Weird. I wouldn't think that would be necessary, as I would think any long-chain sugar would be able to feed the bacteria.

My wife recently stopped nursing our infant anyway. ;)

upanashad said...
It is really encouraging to read this thread today. I am feeling pretty discouraged and hopeless about my health right now, but reading some of the success stories here is giving me hope.


Don't give up. Based on the studies I've read, it can take weeks or even months for implanted intestinal fauna to take over, and for the intestine to be fully healed. In the original Borody study, all of the UC patients had complete remission by 4 months after the transplants. Some had immediate results, but not all.
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