WOO treatment and Probiotics.. And probiotics in general

In the interest again, of those wandering down this WOO road - which I can only assume will all of a sudden be a lot. I am as mentioned concerned for them. Hopeful and Optimistic at the same time though. i mean wow.. imagine what if..

Collateral damage and perhaps unrecoverable change in intestinal flora being my concern. And again this is some powerful stuff. So with that in mind I just want to post a few in depth papers that I have to deal with explaining probiotics to us in a little more detail, the effects - both positive and negative, and some answer as to why they don't necessarily actually colonize in us and the possibility of negative effects and why..

All in all if we root through and pay attention we can learn a lot and perhaps tease out some common ways to help use these (and other methods) to lesson or avoid collateral damage.

More so as well for people to learn and interpret it themselves.

NOTE: It looks like there's a big difference in probiotics between in vitro and In vivo.. so in a dish (or isolated in a lab) and in a body basically (the whole organism "us") - google it.. One has to watch out for this when reading... Actually this is a problem across all papers and subjects on IBD lol..

There's tons of papers on why they (probiotics) are good, but not so much on why they can be bad, and why they don't last long term etc etc... So the intention is again to provide some counterbalance and hopefully dig up some more on this.


To start:

On the good side it seems like:

Lactobacillus reuteri Maintains a Functional Mucosal Barrier during DSS Treatment Despite Mucus Layer Dysfunction: ww.researchgate.net/publication/231815853_Lactobacillus_reuteri_Maintains_a_Functional_Mucosal_Barrier_during_DSS_Treatment_Despite_Mucus_Layer_Dysfunction

Proto has suggested this for other reason as well.So this would be one to perhaps consider taking.

Then there's always of course the two basics - bulgaricus and Streptococcus thermophilus. Basic yogurt is made from this and seem to be well tolerated to a degree by most. In fact I'm not sure you can even make yogurt without them. Adding things like other lacto and bifo seems to be when the issues arise for some. You can make your own basic SDC yogurt using only these as starter. Mostly found in traditional Balkan style plain yogurt. Or you can just buy the store bought stuff... with only these two cultures and try it.

On the bad side:

Not sure... I suspect this is going to be very individual specific. But the first paper posted does show which strains seem to increase inflammation and which decrease. But watch out for in vitro and on vivo again.

Kefir - should be good but again some people it's knocks them out.. myself included in this. Unfortunately. good old plain fermented food (sauerkraut and such) is an option, but it kills me! So I can't go near it. Which sucks. Might do this to others as well. Who knows.

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Some papers to start: On Probitoics, what they do, and why they perhaps don't colonize.

Immunomodulatory Effects of Probiotics in the Intestinal Tract: www.horizonpress.com/cimb/v/v10/05.pdf

Gut Microbiota in Health and Disease physrev.physiology.org/content/90/3/859.long

Probiotics: determinants of survival and growth in the gut: ajcn.nutrition.org/content/73/2/399s.full

These three were the best I had in my current bookmarks and answer a lot of questions.

Mark,

It seems like you are concerned many people will try WOO and destroy their flora. IMHO-It is a WOO dosage issue. As I have mentioned many times, you must start slow, etc.

The reality is people "should" be trying WOO if they are having similar issues as mine, if they don't want to take UC meds. The reason I came to Healingwell in the first place was to get different, non UC med suggestions. That is exactly what has happened. Most did not work, but, as they say in the Lotto..."You can't win if you don't play". I knew when I had taken too much WOO and backed off, repopulated flora, started back up slowly and am doing extremely well. Further, in my current discussions with my GI about WOO, he has never mentioned anyone having the issues you mention. He has said numerous times to make sure you are taking probiotics with Oregano oil. I respect what you are saying, etc but, at the end of the day, I listen mostly to my G.I.

Just my .02c

Man, I say eff the GIs.. It took an immunologist/ rheumi to fix my gut.

I think that's why I'm finally well. I freaking stopped going to GIs. Compliance never made me healthy. Dozens of GI. The "best" from literally all ver the country. I'm blessed with resources. I can't imagine if it woulda just had to be the same group of 20 in a geographic area.
But really, they are all the same, working off of old bad science. Most still haven't even acknowledge diet plays a role in bowel diseases, leaky gut or candida, for crying out loud. Even though there have been over 1000 studies on candida this year.

Never have I been so glad to be a rebel.

Post Edited (PathogenKiller) : 10/18/2013 4:43:18 PM (GMT-6)

Oh yeah - Anything on Fungus or mycotoxins infecting macrophages? I keep forgetting to ask. Like directly if even possible.

Dumb questions sometime yield some pretty good ideas. haha

Just wondering what is Woo treatment?

"Just that 99.999% of the people on here DON'T go to their GI and tell them, and just down stuff without well, taking the time to consider... Or are even afraid to tell their GI. So if they are not going to go to their GI or find one that will listen, then perhaps they can put some thought into it, learn on their own, be proactive and avoid problems and help others avoid similar.. And perhaps people can provide resource on both sides of the story. "

This is the wrong line of thinking. There's a strong dissonance between unconventional patients who are willing to think outside the box and the current medical orthodoxy. This is why even the slightest suggestion of something that goes beyond the standard treatment protocol is denounced as quackery and pseudoscience. If you see results with your own treatment, they immediately attribute it to the placebo effect.

In Julia Schopick's lecture pertaining to her book, Honest Medicine, she describes her husband, now deceased due to failed chemotherapy and radiation treatments, and the medical debauchery they had to put up with. Her husband saw results with colloidal silver and the doctor took credit and had the gall to say that it was his treatment that did it. Sadly, we see this in medicine every single day. Anytime you get that kind of closed mindedness in medicine, it dishonors the relationship between patient and doctor.

Med free remissions are possible but you have to tread lightly and find a doctor that doesn't resort to reductionist thinking. I did see a university doctor, one of the best in the country, and he still resonated with the standard treat the symptoms and not the cause line of thinking. The only difference was that he added a few more, now obvious, testing regimens that checked for things like vitamin D deficiency, etc. It made little difference in the total outcome.

What you mentioned with oregano oil cannot possibly happen with small, controlled doses. You'll notice that protocolteck did not go overboard with it and found the optimal dose. He measured his symptoms and knew when to back off. He took the necessary precautions by adding probiotics and it worked out. This is the same approach we have to take when trying any protocol.

Why wait for your doctor to give you the greenlight on this? I don't understand why you would allow a doctor to dictate what goes in and out of your body. We didn't sign our body away to them. They don't have all the answers. If patients had half the valuable information you see on these forums in regards to fungal/bacterial treatments, these guys would be out of business.