New and perhaps exciting Nitrite mouse study

Very interesting, now have to wonder if we have perhaps lost our oral bacteria that convert nitrate to nitrite.

Antibiotics,toothpaste,mouthwash,chlorinated water.

Mark: Also take note of what is going on with the mucus layer.

They also bring up another point on protease,where the thick colon mucus is converted to the removable outer layer

by protease. Possible we have too much thin outer layer,where the protease from bacteria and not deactivated

digestive protease,or our anti-protease enzymes are defective, and why protease inhibitors can work to heal UC.

Will look into nitrate/nitrite more, I have an old thread,where perhaps excess nitrate is not good.

But did not look I don't think from the oral bacteria aspect.

I know if I use the iNOS pathway by supplementing with Arginine I get worse,but perhaps

why some get better with spinach diet.

Might even bring up another point if we have lost our nitrate converting bacteria in our mouth.

How about instead of FT we have ST, spit transplant.

We could do this the easy way or the fun way.

Just have a healthy person spit a lot into a jar and then swish it around in your mouth,the easy way.

The fun way. Make-out.

Old Mike

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2213231713001006

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20399279

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18194497

HELLO: Oral microbiome. The use of antibacterial mouthwash completely abolishes the effect of

dietary nitrate,which I believe means that the conversion by bacteria from nitrate to nitrite does

not take place. Also triclosan in toothpaste does not do this. They believe it is not getting to the bacteria

for some reason.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/odi.12157/pdf

mouthwash

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18793740

toothpaste

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22336776

more

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8939344

more on oral bacteria types in the mouth nitrate reducers

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:YKapOddvWpcJ:www.plosone.org/article/info%253Adoi%252F10.1371%252Fjournal.pone.0088645+&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

redox NO apples,tea wine triple production

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2213231713000426

NO uc vs collagenous colitis

http://informahealthcare.com/doi/abs/10.1080/003655202753416858

pathways

http://www.ym.edu.tw/bps/paper/0514%20the%20nitrate.pdf

Post Edited (Old Mike) : 11/30/2014 7:28:03 AM (GMT-7)

I struggle with Nitrogen cycle stuff and Nitrogen/Sulfur Bacteria and Metabolism... Last week I drew it out to wrap my head around it which helped a lot to understand the reactions. But man it get's complicated at times.

It's interesting that nitrite maintained the thickness of the adherent mucus layer... and that a drop estrogen negatively effects the epithelial barrier.

I'm just wondering is these two things belong together somehow.

On a total side note: The other week I ate stir fry almost every night (lot's of veggies), the first night was so so, but things got very good upon the second and third morning. I just remember thinking hmmm.. maybe I should eat stir fry more often. Was quite a shock as I was expecting a bad outcome.

Oh and this one you might find interesting.

Induction of experimental ulcerative colitis by Fusobacterium varium isolated from colonic mucosa of patients with ulcerative colitis
gut.bmj.com/content/52/1/79.full

Well this is why I get worse when I supplement arginine.

http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=14133246

But I am still interested in the alternate path of NO using nitrate/nitrite.

randon stuff

NEC

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/05/130506181616.htm?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+sciencedaily%2Fhealth_medicine%2Fcolitis+(Colitis+News+--+ScienceDaily)

Old Mike

Post Edited (Old Mike) : 2/7/2014 9:18:52 AM (GMT-7)

Mark we all thought PC might do us some good, about 2 years ago people even got the real pills from Germany.
As far as I recall, no effect.

Old Mike

You might find this interesting.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20458622

Now this is interesting oral dysbiosis in Crohns but not UC. Wonder if they got a lot of early onset UC people.

In Crohns seems like it might reflect what is going on in the gut.

Again we possibly have a chicken and the egg,is the mouth bacteria/lack of it causing disease in the digestive tract.

Do we have defective nitrate reducing bacteria in the tongue crypts,or are they mostly killed off,not getting enough

nitrate/nitrite in food, low stomach acid.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ibd.21874/full

Toothpaste timelines, believe fluoride can mess with your mouth bacteria.

Timelines somewhat fit with IBD timelines.

http://www.speareducation.com/spear-review/2012/11/a-brief-history-of-toothpaste/#.UvZ4Q2eYbIU

http://www.colgate.com/app/CP/US/EN/OC/Information/Articles/Oral-and-Dental-Health-Basics/Oral-Hygiene/Brushing-and-Flossing/article/History-of-Toothbrushes-and-Toothpastes.cvsp

Then we have tetracycline.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20700115

 

Post Edited (Old Mike) : 2/8/2014 11:41:19 AM (GMT-7)

Mark; I have a old big thread on excessive nitrates.

But now have to start wondering if something wrong with our oral bacteria in the conversion to nitrite.

It might even make some sense that IBD starts in the mouth and the dysbiosis or whatever works its way down,since the mouth

gets the first assault from anything we put into our body. How this might cause UC to start in the rectum, hard even to guess.

Low nitrate/nitrite/NO in circulation might lead to poor circulation in the rectum,or less bacteria killing.

Interesting that the conversion to NO from arginine is a longer pathway, where from nitrate quite easy do to mouth bacteria.

Also makes sense that we have redundant NO pathways,if you don't eat veggies NO comes from arginine, if you eat veggies

NO comes from nitrates/nitrites and you don't need much iNOS,plus we also have arginase to control too much arginine.

No from nitrites also seems to down regulate NO from arginine.

Seem our body uses nitrate/nitrite/NO pathway even in the skin from sweat,so it is real important.

http://www.nature.com/jid/journal/v107/n3/abs/5610399a.html

OM

https://www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=38&m=2503059

Then we have to go back and look again at NO from iNOS driving dysbiosis,switching the obligate anaerobes

to facualtative and promoting ecoli growth. 

I think I have just driven myself nuts again.

https://www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=38&m=2834542

Post Edited (Old Mike) : 2/8/2014 1:43:00 PM (GMT-7)

And germ free animals don't get UC.
I know you are not supposed to start a sentence with and, but was finishing yours.
OM

If cavities can be passed from mother to child... why can't IBD? Or even father to child. Been thinking about this a lot today from a bacterial infection versus a genetic standpoint.

The increase in prevalence, close ties to families, clusters of people and small populations etc etc...

Like you have UC, your son takes an antibiotic and there's a change in his mucus and now he has UC... Maybe it was in him all along, he just needed a "event" or tipping point for it to grab hold...

This is what I have been focusing on lately.

Post Edited (Canada Mark) : 2/23/2014 9:37:35 PM (GMT-7)

I wonder where fluoride fits into this. I gave up using fluoride toothpaste about a year ago...no problems so far.

Nitric oxide brings up the whole smoking thing again doesn't it? As smoking changes NOS levels?

Thought this was an interesting sentence
"NO in low concentration derived from cNOS is cytoprotective by directly acting as an inducer of defense responses in the gastrointestinal tract. However, higher concentrations of NO from iNOS exhibit toxic effects through nitrosative and oxidative stress"
from this study
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11595446

Thanks OM, although I need to go and look up again what the difference is between inos and NO to try and understand it all - plus of course sunflower seeds are high on phosphatidylcholine - that would appear to build mucous integrity - so science behind the spinach sunflower seed combination?

Meanwhile, just had a look back at my genetic stuff, out of 9 NOS related genes mentioned, I have polymorphisms in 7 of them, which is a lot I think. I think that this may be a link to why I only have to look at high arginine foods to come out with a fever blister
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9568978
"This finding suggests that iNOS plays an important role in resistance against HSV-1 infection. Furthermore, nitric oxide (NO) may block the development of Th1 cells via inhibition of IL-12 synthesis and thereby play a role in immune regulation."

I also see that NOS helps regulate vascular tone - I have poor vascular tone - fascinating...
I need to go back and re-read your nitrate links

Thank you so much OM. I will read over your links and will probably have more questions!

One simple thing I was thinking. So long as we have these mouth bacteria presumably the more time we take to chew our food will help this conversion. I was such a slow chewer of food as a kid and that changed probably in the run up to my first proctitis event (which happened among a "perfect storm" of other things) This time also coincided with an "improvement" in my oral hygiene, I say improvement in our modern understanding of it. As a child I brushed my teeth little and ate a lot of sugar. My first carie only happened around 18/19.

Would this be a piece of the puzzle too for those who get quite ill from spinach etc juices? No chewing to get the conversion going? Although I see in the beetroot article that you posted they seemed to test with juice?

I've never seen you mention that you have done a DNA screen OM such as I, PathogenK and others have done? I think the fact that my gene test is showing polymorphisms in my nitrate converting enzymes is really relevant here - not to mention perhaps some explanation towards my complete lack of wrinkles at age nearly 50 as apparently nitric oxide will carry oxygen to the skin and contributes to wrinkles (if I understood that right). My screen also shows that I have problems with the enzyme that converts betaine so I need to read more about beetroot. What is fascinating in this is that I seem to have lower enzyme activity for many of the food products that my ancestors from Eastern Europe shettels would have lived on, which I suppose makes sense that the genetics downregulated in response to the diet. So now I see I have problems with conversion to various substances that are protective to the mucous. I will do a thread on this at some point but it surely is some explanation as to why Ashkenazy Jewish heritage is considered a high risk factor for UC....?

I don't know enough to know if it is unusual to have both pathways for these conversions - in your experience is this rare?