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In the gut, immunity is a two-way street

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Ulcerative Colitis
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Posted 7/10/2014 4:22 PM (GMT 0)
Gets more complex every day. FYI.

Old Mike

http://medicalxpress.com/news/2014-07-gut-immunity-two-way-street.html

Posted 7/10/2014 5:03 PM (GMT 0)
Maybe I had an accurate misconception, but I thought that this was already well established? At least the bit about the immune system affecting the composition of the colonic microflora. Or is the main point of the paper to show that there is a different immune response to a well balanced and an unbalanced microflora? Even that I feel was well established, because if the microflora is unbalanced, there is going to be an increase in the bacteria that elicit an immune response and a decrease in ones that dont elicit such a response...

Either way, its still really interesting
Posted 7/10/2014 6:07 PM (GMT 0)
One of the mysteries is still what makes a commensal bacteria just that... a commensal or even symbiant. How is the process regulated, what molecules play a role etc etc

So this sort of fill in a few answers.

Just as they show T-cell induction of IgA response to different bacteria - B cells are also involved - So like anything else there is a promoting and inhibiting side, which when in balance leads to homeostasis.

There's a theory out there that IgA is used to promote bacterial biofilm development - not just exclude it. It's called the immune inclusion theory. Though some have thought to have disproved it.

In any case, for Old Mike - Remember that IgA builds up and is concentrated on the outer layer of the mucus - so it coats the loose layer and is not really found much in the firm layer. A problem with the mucus itself could mess with this mechanism of regulating homeostasis/response to bacteria and bacterial penetration leading to the altered flora. Conversely the altered flora beyond a certain point could do similar perhaps. Either way proper mucus secretion is required.
Posted 7/10/2014 6:59 PM (GMT 0)
Gentlemen,may I ask a question?
If we accept that dysbiosis is a result of Crohn's disease; not the cause, than how can we assume we can fix dysbiosis via Probiotics, prebiotics or FMT? Is healty intestinal microbiota reachable with environmental manipulation for people with IBD?
Second question: Is it safe to take probiotics for someone using immunosuppressants?
Posted 7/10/2014 7:07 PM (GMT 0)
Honestly - No one knows the answer to any of those. Is dysbiosis first? Always since born? As a result of inflammatory response? Most probiotics aren't really "commensals" and some are not even found normally in humans, some are shown to cause disease... some people die from probiotics each year (really). Some probiotics seem to help very much (even the ones people die from). Lot;s of research going on to answer all these - but nothing 100% yet.

So many unknowns........... So who knows..... Just to be truthful.

Others might have a different take on it though.
Posted 7/10/2014 7:12 PM (GMT 0)
First question: I personally agree with you. The dysbiosis is a result of IBD, not the cause. Therefore, you will never be cured long term unless you cure the root cause of what actually made the dysbiosis in the first place (let's say the immune system targeting good bacteria in your gut). You may be able to control the disease though with treatments continually trying to fix the dysbiosis but it would be a long term forever type of treatment plan since you would never be fixing that root cause.

Second question: I have never really seen a case of problems associated with the ingestion of good bacteria while on immunosuppressants. I have read scare stories but even then these problems seem to be associated with probiotic bacterias containing questionable strains. There are many UC'rs who have had problems with particular probiotics but I wouldn't put the blame on the immunosuppressants. If part of the problem really is our immune systems attacking one or more of the good bacteria's in our colon it might make our UC much worse by trying to repopulate with those same strains that our immune systems are attacking. Short answer: In most cases it is totally 100% safe to take probiotics while using immunosuppressants.
Posted 7/10/2014 7:14 PM (GMT 0)
My main concern is neurological effects of dysbiosis actually. It may have a massive impact. As a fantasy, I would like to get a day with 'normal(?)' healty gut flora without IBD and observe the changes. Changes could be observable.

Post Edited (xy123) : 7/10/2014 1:20:50 PM (GMT-6)

Posted 7/10/2014 8:15 PM (GMT 0)
I have threads somewhere, in crohns there is early onset dysbiosis,so it might be possible that the dysbiosis is first, it UC it is the opposite. In my last post on the mucus chicken or the egg thread
there is a study on western diet and crohns,they seem to indicate the high fat and high sugar are causing the dysbiosis. It is the last paper in my last post.
Old Mike


here is an abstract on treatment naïve microbiome in chrohn's

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24629344

Post Edited (Old Mike) : 7/10/2014 2:28:32 PM (GMT-6)

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