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Sulfur reducing bacteria in sub-mucosa of Crohns patients

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Posted 11/22/2015 12:54 AM (GMT 0)
Hey OM or anyone else interested. I came across this by accident. It's Crohn's but it made me think of UC, and well, about your son's experience actually. Would be nice if they duplicated this for UC.

Was curious of your thoughts on it....

Tough read in a way though.

The interesting thing to me is the finding of multiple types of sulfur reducing bacteria in the submucosa of Crohns patients but not in any of the controls. I thought this was pretty significant actually. Even if it is secondary to the disease. Many talk about 'sulfer type farts' prior to on-set as well as prior to and during flares. I experienced this. And since remission I have not really experienced this.

Microbial Population Differentials between Mucosal and Submucosal Intestinal Tissues in Advanced Crohn's Disease of the Ileum.
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26222621

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Old Mike:

Of note: Lawsonia intracellularis is a sulfur reducing intracellular reducing bacteria in animals, but does not seem to be a problem in Crohn's or UC patients based on testing for it. However it does have the ability to deplete MUC2 - the stuff that is gone missing in UC and been altered in Crohn's. In relation to the above, perhaps other sulfur reducing bacteria also have this ability:

Lawsonia intracellularis infection of intestinal crypt cells is associated with specific depletion of secreted MUC2 in goblet cells: www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0165242715001798

Again, I keep thinking about those of us with IBD are perhaps really dealing with a lot of secondary issues as others suggest.
Posted 11/22/2015 4:46 AM (GMT 0)
Also OM - It looks like there is some mucus in the Ileum but that in this area it seems to be fast shedding and actually be penetrable to bacteria so there could be a lot of bacteria in the submucosa in the area: Mucus Properties and Goblet Cell Quantification in Mouse, Rat and Human Ileal Peyer’s Patches is a study that shows this. Plos One so can't link to it. The fast shedding I assume sweeps the bacteria into the colon.

I think in the colon, where there is a thick and technically impenetrable layer the situation might be different. Could the sulfur gas type farts really originate from the Ileum?

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And this one was interesting in general:
The composition of the gut microbiota shapes the colon mucus barrier onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.15252/embr.201439263/full

So the types of bacteria colonizing the colon are influencing the type or 'impenetrability' if you will....


EDIT: "The mucus phenotype was transmissible by transfer of the microbiota to germ-free mice." This made me think of Fecal Transplants and another possible negative issue/benefit with them. Changing a persons mucus type.

Post Edited (Canada Mark) : 11/21/2015 9:53:16 PM (GMT-7)

Posted 11/22/2015 1:25 PM (GMT 0)
I have been tracking SRB's such as Desulfovibrionales for years.

I am sure I have a few threads on sulfur bacteria. Believe I remember one on taurine conjugated bile.

It is interesting they are finding also in crohn's, but don't know what we are going to do about it.

A quick test to see if you have them in your mouth is to chew some pepto bismol tablets, if your tongue

turns black after awhile then you have them. Mine turns black.

What I don't know is, do none IBD peoples tongue turn black.

Old Mike

here is one old thread-of course every track I go down I have not cured myself

https://www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=38&m=2496733

 

Posted 11/22/2015 3:45 PM (GMT 0)
Well it looks like there is a some kind of new prebiotic in the works in the animals realm at least:

Glycomacropeptide is a prebiotic that reduces Desulfovibrio bacteria, increases cecal short-chain fatty acids, and is anti-inflammatory in mice - ajpgi.physiology.org/content/309/7/G590

"The GMP diet resulted in a reduction from 30–35 to 7% in Proteobacteria, genera Desulfovibrio, in both WT and PKU mice with genotype-dependent changes in Bacteroidetes or Firmicutes."

That's quite the change.

Though I am struggling to understand what it is - It appears to be related to Casein or a part of the Casein protein and found in whey protein. Seem like something one could get their hand on pretty easily. Not sure I'd want to mess around with it though.

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The other thing I found interesting was that study was done by Dr. Chiodini very recently. He was one of the first MAP doctors and the first person to isolate it I think and now is on the fence with the issue, unsure.

In it he points out fungus (Microsporidia) is another issue. It's found in the mucosa of both patients and controls, but only in the submucosa of Crohn's patients.
Posted 11/22/2015 4:15 PM (GMT 0)
Whey contains lots of it. I have tried whey a few times,seems to help some. Also helps to produce more mucus.

I have old threads something like cheese whey colitis.

Old Mike

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3567326/

Post Edited (Old Mike) : 11/22/2015 9:20:13 AM (GMT-7)

Posted 11/22/2015 4:39 PM (GMT 0)
Look like one would want to bypass the whole Whey Protein Powder and supplement industry and go direct for something like this: Casein glycomacropeptide to see benefit.

www.arlafoodsingredients.com/products/caseinoglycomacropeptide/clinical-foods1/

Also of note is their comment on Threonin which reminds me of the lobster thread.
Posted 11/22/2015 5:11 PM (GMT 0)
Yes more concentrated,whey probably cheaper,can get any healthfood store.
You also need other aminos to make mucin.
I also have a bag of pure threonine,of which I would also take in addition to the whey.
OM
Posted 11/22/2015 6:26 PM (GMT 0)
What I mean is that the problem with buying off the shelf or any whey proteins and isolates for that matter is going to be the very high sulfur content of the amino acids in it. So the effect would be minor if any.

Isolated or alternative Glycomacropeptides will have little to none - hence the effect of starving the bacteria off perhaps. Unless they continue eating the mucus, but perhaps starving them of dietary sources would be quite beneficial in reducing them to controllable numbers eventually.

The downside being you'd be stuck on a liquid diet for a while for proteins. But then again this is shown to work in many. A reduction in their food source might be responsible for the large decrease and not all that much to do with mucus to be honest.
Posted 11/22/2015 6:35 PM (GMT 0)
Actually just go to any body building convention... the rotten egg smell that dominates the room is all of them farting from the sulfur and aromatic amino acid supplements they take. Hard to breathe is an understatement... their farts literally burn your nostrils. Brutal.

Also demonstrates that they (sulfur reducing bacteria) might not be responsible for the disease, but could aggravate.
Posted 11/22/2015 6:39 PM (GMT 0)
Ok I see where you are going.
OM
Posted 11/23/2015 4:58 AM (GMT 0)
Mark,

There was a small clinical trial on CGMP that compared its efficacy to escalating mesalamine dose.

https://uegw.congress-online.com/guest/ID9ab56b96a010c5/AbstractView?ABSid=12218

"CONCLUSION:
The addition of CGMP as nutritional therapy to standard treatment was safe and well accepted by patients with active distal UC. The disease-modifying effect of CGMP was similar to that of mesalazine dose escalation."
Posted 11/24/2015 4:11 AM (GMT 0)
Thanks so much Casey,

I cannot view it but get the gist... Would be interesting to find out how much the patients took and what else (if anything) they did 'diet' wise.
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