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RE: locked thread: Anybody worried about getting Measles?

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Posted 6/13/2019 9:10 PM (GMT 0)
I understand that it is the moderator's call whether to lock a thread if he believes things are getting out of hand. I am not questioning his judgment. But I would like to know why two of my posts in that thread were deleted without a trace.

I went out of my way to be respectful and show deference to the opinions of others and despite the constant insults hurled at me, tried to retain a civil tone. Unless someone could give me a reason why those posts should have been deleted then I would like to rewrite those posts.
Posted 6/13/2019 10:34 PM (GMT 0)
There's pretty much no point in talking about the nuances of vaccines in public forums. People are brainwashed to be hardliners. Each vaccine is a different drug with a testing regimen. Some are safe and some have gnarly side effects. But we can't talk about that because the vaccine debate is all or nothing. It's sad.
Posted 6/13/2019 11:39 PM (GMT 0)
I didn't delete anything from the thread.
Posted 6/14/2019 1:02 AM (GMT 0)
I also didn't delete anything. I don't think any moderator has deleted anything in quite some time. it's been relatively quiet and calm around here. Unless the admin came and removed it, or if it was some sort of bug. Maybe another mod but I haven't seen anyone mention any problems...
Posted 6/14/2019 6:59 PM (GMT 0)
Somebody thinks that we don’t have the right to know that there might be two sides on this issue.
Posted 6/14/2019 8:29 PM (GMT 0)

Coffeemate said...
Somebody thinks that we don’t have the right to know that there might be two sides on this issue.

There is not both sides. There is one side that deals in internet conspiracies and medical hoaxes; it is a danger to society. They are putting peoples lives at risk.
Posted 6/15/2019 9:32 AM (GMT 0)
Many people on this forum are immunocompromised due to their colitis treatment and it is their lives put at risk by others not getting their vaccines. I don't feel it is entirely respectful to push anti vaccine material in discussion threads here, and if you must do so then PLEASE show some real evidence to support the statements. I researched many of the anti vax statements in the previous thread and every time they were black and white wrong and that's what upsets me. It's one thing to discuss your personal experience and what worked or did not work for you, and quite another to spread misinformation that puts people's lives at risk.
Posted 6/17/2019 12:48 PM (GMT 0)
Everyone has the right to their own opinion. But no one has the right to their own facts, particularly if those facts are false and spreading them gets innocent people killed.
Posted 6/17/2019 4:26 PM (GMT 0)
those facts are false and spreading them gets innocent people killed

What facts are false? Everything I stated in those two posts was fully documented and I didn't see anyone actually counter any facts that were presented, only hurling ad hominem attacks on me.

And as I said over and over, we antivaxxers are NOT against vaccines and would like to return to a similar vaccine schedule of the 1980's. We could prevent most common childhood diseases with a dozen or so vaccines administered to children before school age, such as monovalent measles, mumps, and rubella vaccines given separately over an extended schedule. That is a fact.

And we could postpone unnecessary vaccines such as injecting babies shortly after birth with the Hepatitis B vaccine with all its toxic adjuvants, whether or not the mother has Hep B in the first place. That vaccine alone will inject 225 mcg of aluminum into a newborn infant. Thanks to vaccines by the time the baby is two months old he will have received 1,225 mcg of aluminum -- 50 times higher than safety levels, with more shots in the pipeline. That is a fact.

In 1983 the autism rate was 1 in 2500. Today babies are receiving 26 vaccines before the end of their first year and the autism rate is 1 in 36 children, a 23 percent increase from as recently as 2014. That is a fact.

Even the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) admits the recent full 15 percent increase in the rate of autism in just two years was NOT the result of more robust diagnosis, the ”new diagnostic criteria for autism adopted in 2013 (DSM-5) made only a slight difference in prevalence estimates.” That is another fact.

The Director of the National Center on Birth Defects and Developmental Disabilities and the head of the CDC both finally had to admit that a comprehensive study comparing the overall health of a vaccinated population and an unvaccinated population has never been done in the United States. There are only epidemiological studies. That is another fact.

So you guys want to have the parents arrested for wanting to return to an earlier vaccine schedule? They are only trying to protect their little ones. We can have both vaccine safety and protect our little ones with a more judicious use of vaccines. But Big Pharma insists on an “all or none” vaccine schedule where they can regularly add new vaccines to the schedule.
Posted 6/17/2019 4:36 PM (GMT 0)
There is zero link between autism and vaccines. Saying there is more autism now than before can be explained in lots of other more plausible ways (better diagnosis, broader spectrum of what counts, and any of the various other environmental changes).

You cannot simply go back to the 1980's vaccines and schedule, that is impossible. They are not manufactured any more. So, restating I am not against all vaccines, just the one's available today doesn't make you pro-vaccine in any way shape or fashion. It sets an impossible goal, even if it could be done, has no guarantee of solving the actual problem.
Posted 6/17/2019 6:46 PM (GMT 0)

poopydoop said...
Many people on this forum are immunocompromised due to their colitis treatment and it is their lives put at risk by others not getting their vaccines. I don't feel it is entirely respectful to push anti vaccine material in discussion threads here, and if you must do so then PLEASE show some real evidence to support the statements. I researched many of the anti vax statements in the previous thread and every time they were black and white wrong and that's what upsets me. It's one thing to discuss your personal experience and what worked or did not work for you, and quite another to spread misinformation that puts people's lives at risk.

When people get the measles vaccine, they are forbidden to enter medical quarantine areas or be around the immune compromised for 30 days. That's because a person who gets the measles vaccine is shedding the live virus, even though they themselves are not contracting the measles. Though, some do come down with measles from the vaccine, I have seen it, in children and adults. This can be readily found through the CDC or any hospital quarantine policy.

Some people do develop full blown measles from the vaccines and infect others. It has been documented. Among measles cases, the CDC has not adequately distinguished between those with wild type and those who have measles from the vaccine. The narrative is that all cases are wild type caused by unvaxxed people. This is true in some cases, but not all. In all of the focus groups there are regular posts by parents and adults who developed full blown measles from the vaccines. I can give you some group names if you'd like to join them. They have hundreds of thousands of users, along with medical professionals, so they can't all be Russian trolls, lol.

What's frightening is how information that can be readily found in vaccine package inserts, in quarantine policy and in many government websites is being treated as conspiracy theory because the mainstream media never talks about these basic things, so it sounds like radical information. It's actually just readily available information if anyone would care to look. For example, when people hear that there is aborted fetal tissue in vaccines, they flip out. Well, it's true... bovine fetal tissue is in many modern vaccines including the MMR because these stem cell lines last longer to maintain the live virus than other kinds of cells. However, the stem cells can also cause auto-immune reactions in people, sometimes delayed by months or years.

It's not my fault you haven't heard of it, it's your fault for not looking it up.
Posted 6/17/2019 10:11 PM (GMT 0)
The antivaxxers playbook:

- use emotive and alarmist statements like "we don't want newborn babies getting jabbed", with "dangerous adjuvants"

- suggest the government isn't telling us the truth, and that they have "secret" information that the rest of us are just ignorant about.

- ramp up fear about the possible side effects, again with knowledge only they have.

- don't talk at all about what happens during an outbreak of measles or hepatitis or any other deadly disease which is controlled by vaccination.
Posted 6/17/2019 10:44 PM (GMT 0)

ambling said...
The antivaxxers playbook:

- use emotive and alarmist statements like "we don't want newborn babies getting jabbed", with "dangerous adjuvants"

- suggest the government isn't telling us the truth, and that they have "secret" information that the rest of us are just ignorant about.

- ramp up fear about the possible side effects, again with knowledge only they have.

- don't talk at all about what happens during an outbreak of measles or hepatitis or any other deadly disease which is controlled by vaccination.

You forgot the antivaxxers’ claim that there are two sides and people should be informed about their “vaccine theories”.

It’s all snake oil, they are spreading Russian Troll and Infowars propaganda. They’re the real Fake News. They are putting peoples lives at risk with this nonsense.
Posted 6/17/2019 11:19 PM (GMT 0)
Thanks, I don't want group names because that's personal anecdote and therefore very inaccurate for extrapolating to the general population. Peer reviewed journal articles, info from scientific/medical agencies etc are sources that I trust.
For example:
https://www.idsociety.org/public-health/measles/myths-and-facts/
Fact: There have been no deaths shown to be related to the vaccine in healthy people. There have been rare cases of deaths from vaccine side effects among children who are immune compromised, which is why it is recommended that they don’t get the vaccine. That’s why it is so important that everyone who can get vaccinated does so, to protect those who can’t. There are possible side effects from the vaccine, including sore arm (from the shot), fever, mild rash, temporary pain/stiffness in the joints, and a very small risk of febrile seizures or allergic reaction . Vaccines undergo a scientifically rigorous research and vetting process before they are approved. Getting the vaccine is much safer than getting measles.

Myth: The MMR vaccine can cause measles.
Fact: The vaccine does not cause measles. While the vaccine is made from a live virus, it is weakened so that it doesn’t cause the disease, but rather causes your immune system to recognize the virus and develop immunity to it . Because their immune system is working hard after vaccination, some children who get the vaccine can have mild symptoms such as a fever or rash, but it’s not measles, just the body building immunity to the measles virus so that they don’t get sick if they’re ever exposed.


Myth: The measles mumps and rubella (MMR) vaccine causes autism.
Fact: There is no evidence that MMR causes autism, but a great deal of evidence that shows it does not cause autism. Many studies have found there is no connection between the two, including recent research that tracked more than 650,000 Danish children and found the MMR vaccine “does not increase the risk for autism, does not trigger autism in susceptible children, and is not associated with clustering of autism cases after vaccination.”

Post Edited (poopydoop) : 6/17/2019 5:22:37 PM (GMT-6)

Posted 6/18/2019 12:03 AM (GMT 0)
*sigh* You just google the first website you find and paste its information here. That's not research. It's just being a sheep.

Anyway... I tried. Good luck to you all.
Posted 6/18/2019 12:25 AM (GMT 0)
The World Health Organization named Antivaxxers as a top-10 threat to global health.

https://www.who.int/emergencies/ten-threats-to-global-health-in-2019

“Vaccine hesitancy – the reluctance or refusal to vaccinate despite the availability of vaccines – threatens to reverse progress made in tackling vaccine-preventable diseases. Vaccination is one of the most cost-effective ways of avoiding disease – it currently prevents 2-3 million deaths a year, and a further 1.5 million could be avoided if global coverage of vaccinations improved. ”

—————————

Anti-Vaxxers are a clear and present danger to our health.
Posted 6/18/2019 1:28 AM (GMT 0)

MarkWithIBD said...
*sigh* You just google the first website you find and paste its information here. That's not research. It's just being a sheep.

Exactly. Real research means citing a Facebook group (it has nurses in it!), and possibly buying an electrosmog meter.
Posted 6/18/2019 1:51 AM (GMT 0)

IamCurious said...
those facts are false and spreading them gets innocent people killed

What facts are false? Everything I stated in those two posts was fully documented and I didn't see anyone actually counter any facts that were presented, only hurling ad hominem attacks on me.

And as I said over and over, we antivaxxers are NOT against vaccines and would like to return to a similar vaccine schedule of the 1980's. We could prevent most common childhood diseases with a dozen or so vaccines administered to children before school age, such as monovalent measles, mumps, and rubella vaccines given separately over an extended schedule. That is a fact.

And we could postpone unnecessary vaccines such as injecting babies shortly after birth with the Hepatitis B vaccine with all its toxic adjuvants, whether or not the mother has Hep B in the first place. That vaccine alone will inject 225 mcg of aluminum into a newborn infant. Thanks to vaccines by the time the baby is two months old he will have received 1,225 mcg of aluminum -- 50 times higher than safety levels, with more shots in the pipeline. That is a fact.

How much aluminum does an infant naturally ingest through breast feeding or through formula? How much aluminum does an infant breathe in through the air?

Do human bodies have the ability to clear aluminum via urination?

Have studies shown that vaccinated babies have higher levels of aluminum than non-vaccinated babies?

Who determined the 'safe' levels of aluminum for infants?

What makes adjuvants 'toxic?' (You show your hand when you use such language. Is water toxic too? It can be fatal if ingested at high enough levels.)

IamCurious said...
In 1983 the autism rate was 1 in 2500. Today babies are receiving 26 vaccines before the end of their first year and the autism rate is 1 in 36 children, a 23 percent increase from as recently as 2014. That is a fact.

Even the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) admits the recent full 15 percent increase in the rate of autism in just two years was NOT the result of more robust diagnosis, the ”new diagnostic criteria for autism adopted in 2013 (DSM-5) made only a slight difference in prevalence estimates.” That is another fact.

1983 was right at the time CD players came into the market for home audio. Digital audio, for the first time, became available for the consumer. Now we have DVDs, Blu Rays, downloadable digital audio files, compressed MP3s, etc.

Can we therefore conclude that exposure to digital audio is also responsible for the increased rates of autism?

IamCurious said...
The Director of the National Center on Birth Defects and Developmental Disabilities and the head of the CDC both finally had to admit that a comprehensive study comparing the overall health of a vaccinated population and an unvaccinated population has never been done in the United States. There are only epidemiological studies. That is another fact.

Are you suggesting we randomize the US population into two groups, then vaccinate one group and not the other, then follow both groups for an entire lifetime (generation), then compare data. And *only then* determine whether or not vaccines are safe? If so, wouldn't we need to change how ALL drugs are approved? Why just such extreme requirements for vaccines, but not for, say, aspirin?

IamCurious said...
So you guys want to have the parents arrested for wanting to return to an earlier vaccine schedule? They are only trying to protect their little ones. We can have both vaccine safety and protect our little ones with a more judicious use of vaccines. But Big Pharma insists on an “all or none” vaccine schedule where they can regularly add new vaccines to the schedule.

Big pharma insists? Link to where big pharma controls the vaccine schedule?
What constitutes a 'more judicious' vaccine schedule? Who determines it?
Posted 6/18/2019 2:44 AM (GMT 0)

beave said...

Exactly. Real research means citing a Facebook group (it has nurses in it!), and possibly buying an electrosmog meter.

Hey,,,but he has a medical research degree from an unnamed university so take his word for it.
Posted 6/18/2019 2:56 AM (GMT 0)

Beave said...
How much aluminum does an infant naturally ingest through breast feeding or through formula? How much aluminum does an infant breathe in through the air?


First of all, aluminum that enters the body through air or the digestive system is quite different from injected aluminum:

http://vaccinepapers.org/category/aluminum/
“Most studies of Al toxicity look only at water-soluble Al3+ (e.g. from Al lactate or Al chloride). Al exposure from food enters the body as Al3+ ions.  The kidneys quickly remove this dissolved Al3+. Most of it is gone within 24 hours.

“Al adjuvants are different, because they do not dissolve. They are made of insoluble solid particles of Al hydroxide, Al phosphate or Al sulfate. Because of the low solubility, Al adjuvant remains in the body and is not filtered by the kidneys. Al adjuvant particles have been detected in humans over a decade after vaccination.”

The following is from the PubMed database on life sciences and biomedical topics that is maintained by the National Institutes of Health (NIH):

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21568886
"However experimental research clearly shows that aluminum adjuvants have a potential to induce serious immunological disorders in humans. In particular, aluminum in adjuvant form carries a risk for autoimmunity, long-term brain inflammation and associated neurological complications and may thus have profound and widespread adverse health consequences. In our opinion, the possibility that vaccine benefits may have been overrated and the risk of potential adverse effects underestimated, has not been rigorously evaluated in the medical and scientific community."

In the Journal of Trace Elements in Medicine and Biology March 2018:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0946672X17308763
“We have made the first measurements of aluminium in brain tissue in ASD (Autism Spectrum Disorder) and we have shown that the brain aluminium content is extraordinarily high...
“We recorded some of the highest values for brain aluminium content ever measured in healthy or diseased tissues in these male ASD donors.”

Beave said...
Are you suggesting we randomize the US population into two groups


There are thousands of children throughout the country who have not been vaccinated, not to mention populations in other countries, even in our country for example, there are many Amish who refuse to vaccinate.

Beave said...
Big pharma insists? Link to where big pharma controls the vaccine schedule?


Reform would begin by making the drug companies liable and allowing us to sue them. Pharmaceutical companies don’t have any incentive to perform safety studies because they have no liability. And there is no need to advertise since they are mandated by the government.

Each vaccine added to schedule means 78 million American children are forced to take it. Hence there is a huge financial incentive to add new vaccines to the schedule.
Posted 6/18/2019 3:30 AM (GMT 0)

IamCurious said...

Each vaccine added to schedule means 78 million American children are forced to take it. Hence there is a huge financial incentive to add new vaccines to the schedule.

Vaccines save about 3 millions lives globally. Antivaxxers put peoples lives at risk on a daily basis.
Posted 6/18/2019 3:40 AM (GMT 0)

IamCurious said...
First of all, aluminum that enters the body through air or the digestive system is quite different from injected aluminum:

http://vaccinepapers.org/category/aluminum/
“Most studies of Al toxicity look only at water-soluble Al3+ (e.g. from Al lactate or Al chloride). Al exposure from food enters the body as Al3+ ions.  The kidneys quickly remove this dissolved Al3+. Most of it is gone within 24 hours.

“Al adjuvants are different, because they do not dissolve. They are made of insoluble solid particles of Al hydroxide, Al phosphate or Al sulfate. Because of the low solubility, Al adjuvant remains in the body and is not filtered by the kidneys. Al adjuvant particles have been detected in humans over a decade after vaccination.”

The following is from the PubMed database on life sciences and biomedical topics that is maintained by the National Institutes of Health (NIH):

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21568886
"However experimental research clearly shows that aluminum adjuvants have a potential to induce serious immunological disorders in humans. In particular, aluminum in adjuvant form carries a risk for autoimmunity, long-term brain inflammation and associated neurological complications and may thus have profound and widespread adverse health consequences. In our opinion, the possibility that vaccine benefits may have been overrated and the risk of potential adverse effects underestimated, has not been rigorously evaluated in the medical and scientific community."

In the Journal of Trace Elements in Medicine and Biology March 2018:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0946672X17308763
“We have made the first measurements of aluminium in brain tissue in ASD (Autism Spectrum Disorder) and we have shown that the brain aluminium content is extraordinarily high...
“We recorded some of the highest values for brain aluminium content ever measured in healthy or diseased tissues in these male ASD donors.”

Didn't really answer my questions.

More questions: How much of the aluminum in the adjuvant actually enters the bloodstream? How much of that crosses the blood-brain barrier and enters the brain?

Have high brain levels of aluminum been shown to *cause* autism? Or are you once again conflating correlation with causation. Perhaps some other pathologic process that causes autism also leads to increased aluminum aggregation in the brain as a secondary effect.

Have you read this?

https://scientistabe.wordpress.com/2017/04/15/sciencesjunk-sciencesbbb-aluminum-adjuvants-in-vaccines-and-the-blood-brain-barrier-removing-the-facts-from-the-fiction-the-good-science-from-the-junk-science/


IamCurious said...
There are thousands of children throughout the country who have not been vaccinated, not to mention populations in other countries, even in our country for example, there are many Amish who refuse to vaccinate.

Not randomized populations, in fact about as far from that as one could get.
Posted 6/18/2019 3:50 AM (GMT 0)
I don't personally care if other people vaccinate. I think it's smart to do so, but if they don't want to, that is their choice. I have friends who choose not to vaccinate their children. I have trouble understanding why someone would want to risk their children getting HPV, or hepatitis, but it's not my business... and even less of an issue I can comment on either way considering I do not have children. Nothing people hate more than non-parents having an opinion on raising children - literally nothing more unacceptable than that in this society. I understand that not vaccinating is inconsiderate to others to some extent, but at a certain point, people have to protect themselves however possible. If you're compromised, you can wear masks and stay out of crowded public spaces. It's not fair but neither is telling people they have to get an injection. In general in the world, we don't force people to do things, even if it's beneficial to their health. I don't see mandatory diets or mandatory health screenings...
Posted 6/18/2019 4:03 AM (GMT 0)

notsosicklygirl said...
I understand that not vaccinating is inconsiderate to others to some extent

It is not inconsiderate, it is dangerous. There is not a measles out break because people are inconsiderate, there is a measles outbreak because people are negligent. Healthy people should have vaccines to protect themselves and others from preventable illnesses and infections. Don’t get a tetanus shot, I really don’t care if you get lockjaw but don’t go out in public without the MMR shot because you’re putting yourself and others at risk.
Posted 6/18/2019 6:48 AM (GMT 0)

MarkWithIBD said...
*sigh* You just google the first website you find and paste its information here. That's not research. It's just being a sheep.

Anyway... I tried. Good luck to you all.

I am a professional scientific researcher. I probably know how to do research. Not that it matters....

It's good to stop assuming people here are idiots/sheep/brainwashed/etc.

Post Edited (poopydoop) : 6/18/2019 12:52:40 AM (GMT-6)

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