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a lot to deal with/part 2....footballfan & dutchie

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Posted 10/1/2007 5:23 PM (GMT 0)

FBF, Please forgive in advance the length of this posting…I have re-read your posting numerous times and thought long and hard about what I wanted to say. First off, please don't feel you need to "defend" your pain or reasons for why you feel the way you do. I think we all can put ourselves in your position and recognize it is a very difficult one with years of painful issues and history- but it is not an impossible one unless you choose it to be. Forgive me…I think that is exactly what you are sadly CHOOSING to do. The thing is, I read all the postings you and Dutchie share. I have heard both of your feelings here. I hear all the feelings and hope that exists for Dutchie - because for her, she finally has an answer of what has been "off" all these years inside of her (an answer as it were about why she behaved the way she did and chose the things she did) and she now has the opportunity to really straighten it out, get the help she needs and have control over who she is and how her life goes. To FINALLY be the person she always wanted to be, and you always believed she was. And it is her desire that her life be about you and the kids, and whatever else supports that and her.

For you, I see something different as she is progressing in her wellness. In some ways you seem angrier, and more resentful. Sometimes when the main person who has been the catalyst of problems via irresponsibility or illness, gets well or “gets it together”, the other one –while happy for them- also resents them in some ways.  Do you feel this could be playing a part of what I am picking up here?  I know you are proud of Dutchie. I know you support her. BUT...whenever someone points out the progress being made by the two of you, you chime in with how you want out, refuse to learn how to forgive and you have your 20 years of proof why you won't. But GEE, you're proud of Dutchie and support her. FBF, it feels like you’ve already have made your decision here and are making it pretty clear you will not move off your position about it – so where are you leaving room for you and Dutchie to learn to trust each other again and rebuild what crumbled?  I do so hope I am wrong here.  But it really feels like you are doing what you said at the beginning which is to wait until she is really "better" in your eyes so you feel absolved of ANY guilt or blame as you exit. I am pointing this out because I don't hear that while you still feel pain, resentment, betrayed…etc. and you are still mad as h-ll, your first choice really is wanting desperately to find your way past it, learn to forgive, heal...etc. – even though you are not there yet – don’t know how …etc. - so that you can keep your family together and rebuild your life in a healthy way with Dutchie.

 

You say you have 20 years of history of why you shouldn't forgive, try again, or want it anymore. But FBF, YOU chose to stay through ALL of those 20 years. And if I understand correctly, it was only this year, cheating was one of your issues with Dutchie - which finally turned out to be the catalyst to lead to the answer of BP, which then in turn explained SO much about your whole history together...does it not? SO, anything else of issue between you for 20 years was not infidelity...correct? But now that you have answers, now that there is help, now that Dutchie is becoming the loving, responsible, focused, committed woman you always believed her to be (and she apparently wanted to be too)...now you seemingly want out...now the "crime" is too big to get past for you. Right on the cusp of actually, for the FIRST TIME in 20 years, REALLY being able to HAVE IT ALL…you in essence seem so stuck in your position you’d rather “give up”.  So…here’s my question… what about you? Why did you stay the 20 years if it was such a life of constant issue? What made you work it through before? You have invested 20 years into building a family and if you don’t let go of your seeming righteousness here, I agree with your dad….this WILL be the biggest regret of your life.  JUST IMAGINE if Dutchie allowed herself to say that when she found out about the BP...but she is not. She is working to grow and change and improve herself now that she knows what has been wrong and how to fix it.  Perhaps it is time for you to move off your position and do the same. I know it has not been easy work or felt good at times for her. Yours won’t either. But otherwise, what are you doing - waiting for her to prove herself and suddenly you will say, “POOF, okay, I’ll stay!”, or "POOF, now I am ready to leave!"?   

Sorry for the length, sorry for the blatant brutal honestly. I hope you accept it in the spirit of caring for both you and Dutchie, and my fervent desire to see you willing to FIGHT to make your marriage work vs. let it go. And you have seen on HW how I support the opposite when the BP in the coupling has reacted badly or runs from wellness. And believe me, IF Dutchie had, I would have said the same to you. But SHE didn’t. She has handled it completely opposite. YOU ARE ONE OF THE LUCKY ONES…DON”T YOU GET IT!!!!!!!!!!!!! You may be a strong wonderful man FBF, but are you being wise? You say you ask a lot of yourself – it doesn’t feel like you are right now.  What lessons do YOU want to teach your daughters here about life, forgiveness, choices??? You are capable of having EVERYTHING you want in your marriage… My prayers are with you to choose well for your future because if you dig your heels in and refuse to move off of that position – you really leave no where for you and Dutchie to go…and that will be on you. Perhaps it is time to talk with men or women who HAVE fought their way through this painful place and immerged out the other side together after severe problems? Old dogs can learn new tricks if they want to!!! Choose well my friend, choose well… and allow your heart and soul to expand and learn great new things. Plus, if you don’t get it…Forgiveness is the gift you give yourself…so as you say “what about me”, that IS about you. Forgiveness has nothing to do with forgetting…just healing and unsticking yourself to move forward positively. Hugs, LFW

Post Edited (loving frustrated wife) : 10/1/2007 9:12:30 PM (GMT-6)

Posted 10/2/2007 2:45 AM (GMT 0)

Hey FBF,

I read the majority of this thread.  Just want to say that I have been in your shoes and I know how you feel.  My dh and I have been together over 20 years and he most likely is bp.  We are working toward getting a solid diagnosis but after reading an enormous amount of information over the last 2 years, I see the behaviors better than anymore.  I had to overcome terrible anger and resentment about infidelity in the past and also about other disasters in our lives more recent.

From the point of infidelity, letting some of the pain go doesn't necessariy mean taking on more pain.  It's the same pain that just comes back to hit you every time you feel like there is a possibility that your wife might stray again or the memories of what you have gone through or what they did come back in your mind.  But dwelling on it or not "is" a choice.

My dh hasn't strayed on me in years so now I do trust him.  The main thing in the beginning was for me is that he couldn't "lie" to me about anything.  So now if he were to stray, he has to tell me.  That keeps me sane.  I trust that he will tell me because he tells me about every little flirt or conversation, etc.  He knows if I were to catch him in a lie or avoids to tell me the whole story, that I will leave.  That's our deal. But I don't call him alot or ask him questions alot anymore, I no longer feel the need.  Although, I use to until I felt secure again.

Time did heal my hurt and I do trust my husband now if you are wondering if people ever do trust again.  It does happen. I don't worry every time he is alone nor when he is on trips, etc.  I also know that if he were to mess up again, it's unlikely that he will no longer love me or want to leave me. I don't know that I would stay with him given our deal now.  But I would hate to go through what you are going through again.  It is so very very painful and there is no way to know how long it will take to get over it, but you will eventually if your wife stays true to you about where she goes and what she does, you will "eventually" be able to trust her again.  And I still feel hateful feelings toward the bimbo but she isn't worth my time.  I try really hard not to think about her for my own mental health.  I go on to something more meaninful.  Mind over matter is what I try to maintain in my life in general.  

I feel like you do alot in that how much longer can I continue to have disaster in my life.  My husband doesn't have the insight about bp disorder that your wife has now.  I wish that he did and hope that he gets there.  I do know that the bp plays a big role in why he does what he does and it isn't that he wants to hurt me and I know that he loves me dearly.  The fact that I love him is why I have endured all that I have so far.  The fact that you have always been so loyal and dedicated to your family says an awful lot about what a great person that you are.

I read the book Loving someone with bipolar disorder and it does state that some choose not to continue to be the strong one and they leave.  It is a choice.  Only you and your wife know all the problems that you have.  I'm sure that there is alot more than just the affair that has taken place so I can't judge your marriage as a whole.

I do know that what broke my anger and resentment down recently was when dh approached me sincerely and emotionally about why I was so angry with him.  I told him. Before that I had kept it to myself because I was afraid as a man, he couldn't hear the truth. It had to do with our financial well being.  Well, it didn't solve everything but it was the breakthrough moment when I let it all out.  I realized how much I didn't want to hurt him anymore and how miserable I was too by being so angry.

Not long after,  our anniversary rolled around and we started looking through our photo albums of our trips together, our wedding, our good times, family pictures and I realized that he is a good man.  He has faults and so do I but all in all he is a kind loving thoughtful man and I wanted to save my marriage.  You have a family to take care.  I don't have children.  But I would think that would be a really strong reason for you to at least try to give yourself more time to see if things can work out.

And if your wife is really trying to manage her bp, wouldn't it be tragic if you missed out on getting that great family that you have always wanted.  I'm like you, I feel like you have to work really hard to get what you have and you have do most of it on your own and not depend on others.  You have worked really hard for many years.  My gut feeling is that you would be giving up too soon.

And I guess I have to look at what LFW said about having one foot outside the door wanting to leave because I sure feel like that alot and maybe that is playing a big role in why we are having such a hard time getting our lives together.  Dh has made progress, not as much as your wife but he wants help and that's a start.

I wish you both well and hope that you can let up on your mistrust of her soon.  It is making you miserable and it will until you can decide to let some of it go.  Yeah, I know you don't want to get hurt again but you know......separating and divorce is horribly painful too.  And it will be very painful for your girls too.  Good luck with your decisions.

Take Care........

Dasa

I removed extra spaces on the bottom 

Post Edited By Moderator (olivia of course) : 10/4/2007 11:11:13 AM (GMT-6)

Posted 10/3/2007 3:19 PM (GMT 0)
LFW - You are straight forward as usual - it is appreciated and I do take it as a friend trying to help.
Dasa - Welcome, thanks for the insight and honesty.

I see Dutchie making progress and in no way do I resent her for that, but do I believe in it 100% - no. Remember when I started posting it was a month after she had be dx'd. The previous 2.5 months were a complete disaster, I wish I had of found this site back then as it would have helped. I told her back then that these months were going to be the thing that rips us apart. During that time she did everything in her power to hide, disguise and keep the affair going. The things she would tell me back then to keep me off the trail are the same things she tells me now except I am now supposed to believe them 100%. She would tell me everything with him was over, how she loved me, how she would never hurt me, how she was a changed person, how she couldn't believe she threw her life away for nothing, writing me letters, leaving me little notes all the while trying to keep it going. So how do I trust her now when it sounds exactly the same? In time maybe, but for now it all sounds the same.

Over the past 20 years, yes we have had some problems, but they never seemed to be that big of a deal. Dutchie had a couple of financial problems that we took care of, my thoughts were simply that she didn't understand money so I would be the one to manage it. It does take 2 to tango but that's just it, we never fought, I mean never! I would see our friends have arguements and it made me feel like we had such a good relationship when I come to find out that it was simply that Dutchie wouldn't voice her opinion and in fact resented me for every little thing I did,said or she thought. She just wouldn't communicate with me on anything that had the remote possibility of causing us to disagree. It has not been 20 years of intense problems, in fact the exact opposite, Dutchie ensured that everything ran smoothly and this is what I never understood over the years. My feelings of being unhappy. I never understood why I wasn't happy, I felt I had no reason to feel this way - I had a wife that loved me, 2 great kids and financially we were on our way, but there always seemed to be something there that kept Dutchie and I at a distance, I would see other couples that gave the appearance that they were each married to their best friend, I didn't have that feeling. In honesty it has felt like I am the father of 3 daughters. The small strange decisions Dutchie would make over the years that would make me stand there and have no idea what she was thinking when she made the decision, her complete disregard for consequences and sometimes the disreagrd for anyone elses feelings. Why did I stay? I stayed because I made a committment. I stayed because I should. One foot out the door? Yeah, not because I have chosen that but simply I have been pushed to that point. I don't want to lose my family, it's the only thing that has ever mattered to me, but until there is any trust how do I move forward? I know it is a choice but trust is the basis for any relationship, if it isn't there then how good can the relationship be?

My thoughts and emotions are on a constant rollercoaster. When I am home, Dutchie and I generally get along well, we talk a lot, go for walks and go out for lunch or supper more. When I am at work it is a different story, this is when all the bad feelings and anger come to the surface because this was when everything happened, when I get home it stays with me, sometimes it goes away in a few hours and sometimes it just stays. The thoughts are that she could easily be continuing the affair. When I work nights I know his wife is working nights also, he lives 5 minutes away and he works a few minutes the other way meaning he pretty much passes by our house daily. It's not a nice feeling being trapped at work with those feelings and not being able to do anything about it. That's when the feelings of just splitting come over me.

We are working on things still. I have not closed down to the point that leaving is a forgone conclusion. I realize mistakes I have made during the marriage, but how do I know it is a mistake unless I have been held accountable. I am very big on learning from my mistakes, when I realize it then it won't happen again, but unless your told that your words hurt or your actions aren't appreciated you assume that everything is ok. I push Dutchie now for complete honesty, but it is going to be different because it has never been that way and in a sense I have been spoiled by never having to compromise. I know I need to learn but I am not going to pretend that it will be easy.

Thanks for the thoughts.
Posted 10/3/2007 10:31 PM (GMT 0)
FBF, NONE of what you’re going through is easy, and it won't be for a while to come. You ask how can you learn from mistakes no one held you accountable from...the answer is you reflect on it with the knowledge you have now, and then hold your self accountable. What I mean is this...if you saw and felt the gap between the two of you, the disconnect as it were, recognize YOU said nothing too. Question yourself as to why. If you were unhappy, why did you not give yourself the right to question these things deeper for yourself and confront what answers came to you? If she did things that made no sense to you, why didn’t you question these things more and not see through the “perfect” answer if they kept happening…etc.

If you are living with this level of anxiety about the "is she being honest now - is she not", Dutchie already says she understands why you have those feelings and is willing to do what it takes for you to see that, now that she is in control of herself for the first time - this is real. SO, sit down and devise a plan WITH Dutchie that will help you get the reassurances you need. Maybe Dutchie calls or e-mails you hourly, or you her. Maybe you need to know her daily schedule and you randomly check that she is where she says she is throughout the day. Maybe you want a companion for her that will report back to you for a bit...whatever. The thing is, I hear Dutchie saying any and all of that is fine by her; she wants to do whatever you need. MAYBE this is what you need to regain not only your trust in HER, but in YOUR SELF? And I know you say you will not police or oversee her - that is not the relationship you want, but FBF - maybe you need to for YOU right now. Maybe...that is exactly what you need until you see enough, or enough time passes where that issue calms down for you from elongated "evidence" proving its "realness". I know ultimately you want a relationship based on equality and trust, but that was severely damaged for you. If you need reassurance from the “evidence” right now to begin the process, then do it – there is nothing wrong with that as long as it is being done to assist you in healing and you both agree to it. And grant you, under normal circumstances if someone did these things they would be considered controlling and totally inappropriate in my book. But, these are NOT normal circumstances and in this case it may be needed for you to heal. You may find that you only need it for a few weeks or months until a comfort zone begins... Does that all make sense?

I want you to know that I kind of understand this issue because of what went down with my health last year. I have great pride in my coping skills and my ability to be resilient. But, last year with the paralysis from the surgery, I did not react as I would have assumed I would, or wanted to see myself do - I was a WRECK. Fear kicked me in the butt. I no longer felt safe, and feared that the nerve damage may be permanent since I was getting a lot of vague answers. And while part of me held on to the conviction that somehow I’d be okay no matter what...I slipped further down in fear when I took the fall after I had gotten home from the first hospital stay after surgery - it then landed me in a rehab center to live for a short time. I was scared to death. When I was told it was time for me to go home, I was improving and was on my way to recovery...I fought leaving with everything in me. I wanted to stay longer because I “Ms. Capable and Asks a lot of herself” was terrified! In the end, I had to own that until my fear subsided and my confidence began to return, I needed someone with me at all times (I really didn’t physically by then…there were enough people around me to assist and ensure my safety)...but I was so scared that we had to hire someone for me. I FELT REDICULOUS! But, I really did need it until I emotionally caught up with my healing body. I finally relaxed after about a week or two and let the person go. I was finally strong enough to go it with just my family.

I hope you understand my example…you’ve been hurt FBF, your trust in your partner, your self, and everything in between has been damaged. Think what it will take to repair it and whatever that is, recognize you will not have those same needs forever, but if it is what you need right now, and you have an understanding partner about it…which you do…figure something out to allow yourself to start to rebuild trust again. Nothing is wrong with whatever it takes. LFW
Posted 10/3/2007 11:36 PM (GMT 0)
Well, FBF,

When dh has been on a business trip, I still right out ask him if he did anything sexual with anyone when he gets home. It is for my benefit so I don't have to wonder. I am relieved when I hear, no I didn't. He tells me stuff even if it never went anywhere, like he talked to a woman who he thought was coming on to him and so forth. But I really don't want to worry and he is really good at putting my mind to ease and I do the same for him if he is concerned. The bad part of that is that I hear things occassionally that I don't want to hear, like he wanted to be with someone but fought it....ugh!! But at least he is being truthful. And all of us are human.

Maybe you should do that we you feel worried instead of letting your mind wonder on. Of course, like you say, you have to trust that she is telling you the truth. That takes time and it takes her being 100% truthful for now on. I hope she is doing that and will continue to do that.

I certainly understand where you are coming from and I sure hope things get better between you.........I know it is so difficult where you are standing in all of this.
Posted 10/4/2007 1:43 PM (GMT 0)
LFW & Dasa....thank you both so much for your responses. I just wanted to write this to maybe help explain a little bit of what FBF is maybe going through. I think as far as questioning things over the past years, he did in his head,but chalked it up to things like just plain odd behaviour, "don't feel that way...support your wife" , his own insecurities of what a relationship should offer, and the fact that out of anyone one he believed I was the one person that would never hurt him. I never really gave him any reason to "question" things, because I portrayed things in such a way that we always got along.

We were talking about this last night and FBF stated that he could never figure out why he was unhappy with things...because I gave him no "reason". So he took that burden on himself as one of his own kind of quirks. It is these things that I see the degree of love he has always had for me and the degree to which I have hurt him. That is a big load to carry. But I do hope that with the confidence I am building inside and the love I feel and want to share with him...I hope that will keep his heart open to me to help him heal.

I look back on things and because of the way my mind was working I see that if there was a hard road to take...I took it! Anything I viewed as easier...it was easier to tell a lie...it was easier to give up....it was easier to blame FBF for my pain and insecurities. All these things actually made my life hell. These are things I recognize now that I never did before, these are things that I simply will not have it my life anymore. The unfortunate thing is that FBF lies in the wake of all this very damaged and hurt. Like he has said it was it the months previous to us starting this thread that the lies peaked while I continued to hide that second life. So it is very difficult to give him words he can believe in, I understand that. It is frustrating at times , but I understand it. That is why I will continue to SHOW him in the way I live each day. Our councellor often says...Feelings follow actions...feelings follow actions...feelings follow actions (she always says it 3x...its cute) More than anything I want FBF to believe in me again....but I have no problem in proving my worth as a friend, spouse and mother. The nice thing I am realizing with improving myself--health included, is that, ultimately yes, it is for my own wellness...but the people you love get to share in those rewards as well. I get so much pleasure in not doing things for selfish reasons anymore. It is very freeing to have that burden gone of trying to please others, worrying what others are thinking, feeling like everything I did had to be hidden with something else. I am finally feeling like a genuine person. That is what I want to offer FBF and the girls.

FBF definitely sees his part in the demise of our relationship..even from when we went out...I never gave him any reason to really have to "try" at anything. I prided myself on being agreeable and easy to get along with. I was NOT going to be the *****y girlfriend/wife. So yes he kind of got spoiled into thinking he didn't have to work for anything in a sense. Even though that is what was lacking for him all along..was a true, grownup partner, he never felt like having someone portraying what I was portraying was reason to be unhappy, or reason enough to not want to be with me.
He has said he sees and knows the changes he would like to make in our future...but I think it is getting to the future that scares him..I have done alot of damage, I can't take that back, but I can offer him a brighter future. A future with opinion and honesty, caring and love. Like I have said before I don't want to ofer him a future based on the past...I want to offer him a better, stronger partner, and mom to our girls.

Have I mentioned I love this man?

Thanks all.
Dutchie
Posted 10/4/2007 5:01 PM (GMT 0)
Dutchie, I understand what you are saying, that is why I have said what I did to FBF. Since I don't have the history of you "saying the right things to just impress or keep peace...etc..", I (and I assume many others) can feel the genuineness of what you say now...we're not clouded. Plus, you are very forthright to owning your side of the equation and open to whatever FBF needs. It is in asking him self those questions and looking at why didn't he take as good care of himself during those years as he worked to take of you, that I think is important for him. See, if he felt something was off, why didn't he pursue it with him self? He did the same thing with himself as he did with you. Why was he willing to think it was him? Yes, you've done damage, but in some ways, his silence and acceptance of his unhappiness did damage too - to both of you and your relationship as a whole. Again, this is never meant as a criticism, just an observation. If he had questioned the situation deeper, perhaps the BP issues could have come to light sooner; if he didn't let the issue go for himself that something was off because he was unhappy and strived to find out why - because he knew he deserved to be happy...he may have discovered you were not being honest in your behavior, which would have sent off a chain of events sooner. Yes, you were good at how you hid things, but can you see how his complacence in some ways made it easy for you to do? It in some ways it feels like in what he says, that he is doing it again here by not allowing himself what HE needs...his focus feels so strongly on you. In his postings I hear him crying out in some ways needing additional proof before he's willing to open his heart to you again...he's SO scared. And as you have shared...his feelings are justified - as you are good at "saying" the right things and creating an agreeable facade. I'm sure the feeling he has is that if anything ever happened again it would be the crushing blow that would obliterate him and he'd be destroyed to the point of not being able to come back from it or even exist….ever; pain beyond a manageable or safe point. My thoughts are that he feels it so intensely because he believes himself just shy of the threshold now (fear is ALWAYS bigger than reality of course…but fear is a genuine feeling that controls a lot in all our lives). It is kind of like a glass that is full that doesn’t have a drainage valve at the bottom to let some of the water out, and anymore drops will cause the glass to topple – so you must prevent anymore drops from getting in at all cost. I think he needs to create his drainage valve, as oppose to trying to simply ensure that no more water is put in the cup, and then waiting for what is there already there to evaporate on its own. Does that make sense?

I get you are willing to do anything he needs to help him here. And while he does not want to ask for proof or want to admit how much he needs the secondary “physical proof” to help this process along…I think he really does need “something” for a period of time, to get past the hump (aka- create that drainage valve). What that “something” is, he will have to get honest about and you both will have to negotiate a plan for. Because I don't think he trusts what HE hears and sees. I am refering to his trust of himself again too, not just in you. I know ultimately it is not the way he wants to live (and he is right not to), and I think he doesn’t like that he may even need this right now, so he is potentially rejecting asking for it. And YES, I could be totally wrong here. But it is a gut feeling I have – so I am sharing it. If I put me in the scenario, and take on everything you both have shared…it really would be what I would need to help me rebuild my security that I could trust myself not to be deceived again, that I would listen better to my instincts, that I could trust myself to take better care of me. Also it would allow me to keep my fears alleviated until time and therapy had its chance to help me and my hubby sort through things and try and find our way back as a couple.

Dutchie & FBF, I really want to see you two have that chance. I send you both good thoughts for the day and always…LFW

Post Edited (loving frustrated wife) : 10/4/2007 2:05:47 PM (GMT-6)

Posted 10/6/2007 5:04 PM (GMT 0)
Over the years I did question situations and voiced my feelings of unhappiness, it was always met with Dutchie stating that everything was fine, there were no problems. It isn't like our entire marriage was miserable or that unhappiness was a constant feeling, just at certain times, in certain situations I would feel that I wasn't content but had no reason to feel that way since all I ever heard was that everything was fine. I did put these feelings on myself, thinking I was driven for more out of life and Dutchie was completely happy. This past year the feelings became more and more frequent, the thoughts that she was up to something started getting to me but I always would put the feelings away because in my mind she wasn't that type of person, I trusted her more than I trusted my thoughts and it angered me that I would have thoughts like that about my wife who always told me she loved me and supported me. Looking back now the signs were so obvious, the unbelievable lies and the constant avoidance were easy to see but when you have blind trust in your mate then everything gets justified especially when it is mixed in with her always telling me she loved me, doing small things that made me feel that she cared and wanting to go away with me when we had time off together. Blind trust is the foundation of a relationship, I had it.

With the dx of BP it puts a lot of the behaviours in perspective. If I knew then what I know now it would have been easy to get Dutchie the help she needed, I never knew what BP was or had the strong feelings that there was a mental health problem, I did think she had some odd behaviours and sometimes made decisions without thinking them through but never thought it was to this extent. A lot of the behaviours were hidden from me, she would be quiet and down to earth when I was around but would tell me stories that made her seem like a completely different person when I wasn't around, a lot of the stories would show her being very outgoing and fun and I always wondered and asked why she wasn't like that around me. I always had the feelings that she cared so much about what everyone else thought and I would question her about it, I would always get answers that she was just being nice or that she enjoyed being social. In reality she was consumed by the feelings that everyone must like her and she would do anything to get that. I wish I could have helped her but nothing seemed so out of the ordinary for me to feel there was a true problem.

Yesterday was a very difficult day. I was in a meeting all day and didn't talk to Dutchie until I got home at around 4. While the meeting was going on I had my mind focused on the information that we were working on, for the first time in a long time our situation wasn't the driving thought in my head, then it hit me, the mental movies kicked in and the total disbelief of our situation came flooding in and I found myself losing focus on the meeting, it was like going through all of this all over again. To describe the feeling is easy. Anyone who has lost a loved one know the feeling that comes with death, the thoughts of it not being true and then realizing the reality that it is true, the feeling of doom that hits you right in the gut. That may seem a little over the top but that is the exact feeling.

Last night we went out for supper with my brother and his wife and another couple. We were all having a good time when they started talking about a guy they know that just got busted for cheating on his wife. They really started ripping this guy and I felt bad for Dutchie as she had to sit through all the hurtful things they were saying about this guy and I know she was relating to it. She didn't really talk after we left the restaurant or on our way home, I could tell that her mind was spinning. When we got home and got the girls to bed she came up to me and said "I'm sorry you had to hear all of that". I told her that my feelings on infidelity have always been the same as what they were saying, mainly - there is no excuse and if your going to cheat then end the first realtionship first. Tough day for both of us.

Dutchie is very anxious today and I'm just not in the mindset to be able to help her right now.
Posted 10/6/2007 7:15 PM (GMT 0)
FBF, Great honesty. I totally hear what you are saying. It is okay that you don't feel up to helping Dutchie today. Part of her healing is to learn how to be there for her self as well when you are not available. And as for you, keep up the good work on self examination to see where you blindly accepted things. Yes, trust is a MUST in a relationship...but BLIND trust...I learned earlier in my life that when I GAVE ME AWAY to the other person, I leave myself vulnerable to be hurt like I was, and then there was nothing left to protect me inside...I had given my personal power away. While a marriage is the foundation to our lives FBF, you need to also stay whole too. And we are human and BLIND should never be a part of a marriage. We need to see each other for who we are, foibles and all, and love each other beyond our negatives, and relish and enjoy each others positives as we merge our lives to one...yet we each need to remain whole and complete separate entities as well. Perhaps what you are finding in all this reflection is that you didn't put you equal to Dutchie. You took better care of her than you did you. And every time you denied what was right there, you chipped away at yourself to do it. That isn't healthy to each of us as individuals, and no matter HOW much we love our spouses, we each have a responsibility to take care of ourselves too. We should care EQUALLY for ourselves as we do our spouses. Then you will have a balanced, honest love and foundation to work from, with two whole people.

You are going through a death of sorts. The death to the relationship you allowed yourself to think and believe you had. For you and Dutchie to go forward from here, you will need to openly create something new - you can keep the good parts, learn from the bad and let them go for both of you. It will in turn create space for you to rebuild something more genuine and real that you never had before – that in reality will actually BE something more on the lines of what you had originally dreamed of, but had refused to see before wasn’t there in a healthy way. Now it can be. But you are correct, that none of that can happen if you don't acknowledge and mourn your loss. And as you know, one of the stages of grief is ANGER! First it is denial, then ANGER. Process that and you will keep moving forward. And again, I hold to my observation and suggestion that you make a plan WITH Dutchie for a while, to help your anxiety about is she lying, is she not...is she deceiving me, is she not...stuff, and create some real tangible proof for yourself. And tell the truth about what you NEED regarding it. You don’t have to worry about it being reasonable right now…first just tell the truth about what it would take in a “perfect world” scenario and go from there.

Lastly, does your brother and his wife know about what you are going through with Dutchie? If not, maybe you want to share it with then? If they did and participated in that conversation or didn't manage to get the subject changed...then that was insensitive to what you and Dutchie are both going through, and disrespectful to you both. And I rarely say this...but in your case, Dutchie DOES have an illness that was untreated, and while there is no excuse, it DOES contribute as a compounding and compelling contribution to what happened. You said that if you knew then, what you know now...etc. Well, it is the same for Dutchie...when you know better, you do better....and she is - with no excuses to her past. THAT is where you are lucky my friend...COMPLETE ownership has been taken and acknowledged. Plus, she doesn’t expect it to just disappear now that she IS owning it. She accepts your anger, owns the hurt she caused and is willing to do WHATEVER it will take to HELP YOU heal; as well as herself. That is rare...and it is THAT reason alone...I believe there is hope. Plus, I DO trust your love for each other is genuine.

Always sending good thoughts to you both and keeping you in my prayers…LFW
Posted 10/7/2007 5:16 PM (GMT 0)
By blind trust I mean simply trusting in the unknown, not turning a blind eye to everything. Trusting that if there is a problem it will be openly discussed and not hidden. As I have said, I did question things at times when they seemed odd and assumed that I would be told the truth if there was a problem or if Dutchie thought something was wrong or something I said had hurt her, I would openly ask and give every opportunity for problems to be worked out, as far as I knew she was perfectly happy because that was all I ever heard. She tells me that she felt she was working things out and they were behind her but in reality they were just growing inside of her and causing her resentment toward me, slowly building up a wall. Some of the things she has said now have been cleared up really easily, she thought they were huge things when in fact they were simply things she thought but never discussed. When all of this stuff came out she told me that I never forgave her for the money problems 8 years previous, I told her that I hadn't even mentioned it in at least 5 years and it had been worked out when it happened, I didn't hold any resentment from it because I allow my anger out therefore resentment can't grow because everything has been said. That problem had been dealt with as far as I was concerned. One that really floored me was that she told me that she resented the fact that I didn't have fun on our wedding day. I didn't know what she was talking about. She told me that I seemed uptight that day and I didn't have a good day. This is almost 15 years after the fact, the first time I had ever heard her thoughts about that day. I told her that I was uptight a little because that was a day where I was put in the spotlight where I'm not comfortable and it made me nervous, that's it, that's all and yet she had been carrying this around all this time. Blind trust would tell me that she would have discussed this when it happened.

As far as working out a plan with Dutchie to give me some trust in her, the problem is that I see all the work she is doing, she is doing everything to be where she says she is going to be at all times, she is doing all of that, the problem is how it ended with him and what she had said to him. The day she quit her job she went out and talked to him and said it was over. She says that he told her to let things quiet down and they could renew things down the road. She told him that it could take a year for that to happen and he said he would wait. I told her that her words completely left the door open and makes it appear that nothing is going to happen now but as soon as I drop my guard it will be safe for them again. She said she didn't mean it that way and was just expressing how much work she had to do and that there wouldn't be any more of their relationship. She said she made that clear but it sure doesn't look too clear to me.

My brother and his wife do not know about the affair or the bp. He works at the same place I do and when I took some shifts off I just told him that we had problems going back to the money stuff and that we may be breaking up.

Yes I believe bp was a contributing factor leading to the affair, her mind racing with so many thoughts, so many resentments but I look at it as a simple question - Did she know right from wrong? Yes she did. She talks about a new life for us, that she isn't the same person and if she had been thinking straight this would have never happened. I'm not trying to be mean to her but I told her last night that starting a new relationship with her would mean starting a relationship with a person that has cheated, I said that if there is a split and we moved on and I met someone and found out they had cheated in the past then I would not desire a relationship with them either. I know your going to give me heck for talking like that LFW but I am just being honest with Dutchie. One foot out the door is an accurate observation. At this time I don't see the future that Dutchie desires but I am here waiting to see if I eventually see it. I know it's a choice, I just can't commit either way at this time.
Posted 10/7/2007 9:06 PM (GMT 0)

Well, to me, I hope Dutchie can continue to do well and get control of her life regardless of what you guys do as a couple.

In hindsight, I know that my dh starts throwing all sorts of things at me to try to turn things around to blame me when he knows he is at fault as a way to take the spotlight off of him,  even if he doesn't have a right to.  I know that that is a common thing that people with ADD do (which I know more about) and maybe bp folks do that too.  It's learned behavior when growing up and not measuring up, it as way to get the focus off of them.  Not saying Dutchie did that with the day of your wedding issue that she had nor the idea that you didn't forgive her for the money issues but it sure sounds farfetched that someone would still be concerned about these things but then I have a sister who holds stuff in for years and her thinking is beyond my reasoning.  You know here FBF better and probably know if she holds things in like that.

I agree, I wouldn't want my husband to leave the idea that he might "renew" things down the road when all of this has died down.  Now he has talked to old girlfriends before and even an ex wife since we have been married, I'm not the jealous type.  But I wouldn't like it at all if he continued any type of relationship with that woman he cheated on me with at all.  Not even a platonic one.  It would make me uncomfortable and he had better love me enough not to put me through that.  I wouldn't want him to talk to her again to discuss the issue, I would just want him to promise that he would do everything possible not to talk to her or be around her in any way ..... ever again!!

I would want that promise from my spouse......I could give a rip about the woman,,,,,she means nothing to me but a sore spot.  I don't need anything from her, I don't have a lifelong committment with her,  it's my husband who betrayed me....not her.  That is how I've always felt.  I blamed "HIM"  not anyone else.  Other women will try to get other women's men,,,,some will .....  but HE is the one who has to stay faithful to me.  So I need His word and His committment.

To me there might have been some time there where if you didn't feel things were right, you could have discussed it to see if there was something wrong in your marriage but from what you have said......what good would have done back then, from your posts, she would have lied and said everything was fine.  You can't fix what you don't know.   

It will take a long time to get your trust back.  If you love her and she stays true, it should come back.  It did with me.  Maybe you shouldn't look at it as one foot out the door but maybe more like.... I will keep both feet in as long as she stays true to you.  Maybe that would be a better mindset as the two of you go forward.  And you have to know, that she knows if she so much as does anything out of the way with him especially, that her marriage is a gone so I would think that you are safer with her now than you have ever been.  Surely she knows it doesn't matter if it happened tomorrow and year from now, that you wouldn't be able to take it again.

But you have the bp symptoms to think about as you know. My dh has been unmedicated for these disorders and he stays in line.  I don't think that most of these disorders can say that people just do things like cheating with no conscience.  I feel like it's more like when people drink, they let their guard down more.  But they can still tell right from wrong.  Maybe somebody else who has bp knows more about this part but dh is very sexually oriented but he keeps himself under control when he wants to even without medication.  He just has to want to and make it a priority.  I wouldn't allow him in slack with it at all if he tried that one.  

It's kind of like when we were young and wanted to but knew we shouldn't....we couldn't let our physical selves go too far.......that's my opinion anyway.

I wish you both alot of luck in getting everything back on track........it's admirable of you both to work so hard.

I removed extra spaces on the bottom 

Post Edited By Moderator (olivia of course) : 10/10/2007 6:30:30 PM (GMT-6)

Posted 10/7/2007 9:20 PM (GMT 0)
Another thought about bringing up old issues. Dh is not only good at the blame game but he also will bring up stuff just to get reassurance from me that I do love him and need him and so forth. Or to get me to compliment him. Sometimes, they aren't really big issues in his mind, they are just a way to get me to say something he wants and needs to hear......he is much more sensitive than I am.
Posted 10/8/2007 4:58 PM (GMT 0)
FBF, the point I have been trying to make to you is that unless you have the same commitment to work it out with Dutchie, as she has with you, (whether you succeed or not is a separate issue), I can already tell you emotionally you have already left. She will never be able to prove enough to you, she can not do enough to you, if emotionally you have already left, or if you are sitting back waiting to “see” if things in your heart will change. Without YOUR participation to heal, grow, and make changes for yourself too, NOTHING will penetrate that wall YOU have put up. That, you will have to be responsible for.

So sitting with half of you in, half out, is a recipe for failure from the start and a waste of both of your time to get on with life. I do believe in time, should you leave; you will spend the rest of your days kicking yourself for not trying harder inside of you to heal, so you could have the life you dreamed of, with the woman you love, and the mother of your children. But these are your choices to make FBF. There is the old adage would you rather be RIGHT, or be happy. I think you need to ask yourself that. Plus remember – COMMITTING FULLY to fighting for your marriage does not guarantee you’ll make it. But without that FULL COMMITMENT on your part too, there is no chance that you will IMO, and you will always regret not REALLY giving it everything YOU had. That really is the only way to be complete about it – no matter what the outcome.

Don’t you find it interesting that you are not being honest with your own brother to share what is REALLY going on in your lives as something worth questioning about yourself? What are you hiding…that fact that your wife, his sister in law, is ill, and it prompted her to do unflattering and even “shameful” things, but now that you both know, she is getting the help she needs and SHE is doing everything in her power to get well. You have been devastated by some of it (and rightfully so), and are fighting hard to save your marriage. The hope is for both of you that you will make it, but only time in the end will tell. I am not suggesting that you go announce your private business with the world, but your brother that you work with, see all the time, and apparently are close with? Why do you not allow yourself support like that? Because he’ll look at you or Dutchie differently now? Are you ashamed Dutchie is ill and it damaged your marriage before it was found? YES, ill or not, there is still right and wrong, BUT, as you have learned on this site…judgment can be skewed, and poor judgment can be used at times with this illness when it is out of control. And clearly hers was (not an excuse, just part of the picture). And as you can see on this site, you are NOT alone as to infidelity being something some BP’s were prone to while unregulated by the illness. I am not making excuses here…just trying to add perspective. Plus, cheating happens in non-BP marriages to for a multitude of reasons (being BP simply made her more prone), and it usually doesn’t if the marriage is healthy and strong (yours was not whether you chose to see it or not – and it took you BOTH to get you there – BP or not).

I understand your concern about how Dutchie left things with this man. CLEARLY for YOU, in your mind, it is not over. (FBF, you have a right to feel this way!) So, what do you NEED to see, hear, or have done so you can feel it is – so both you and Dutchie can close that chapter in your lives to let it go and really move forward? Ask Dutchie for whatever THAT is (within the law of course). Is it a letter, maybe you NEED to write that letter to his wife, and Dutchie can add a paragraph at the end restating this, maybe you need to meet with Dutchie and this man and his wife and HEAR her tell him in NO uncertain terms it is OVER FOREVER! Maybe you need that “plan” I spoke about for a little while (at the year anniversary?)…whatever? But certainly do not do what you have always done and go lick your own wounds without demanding for yourself what you need here. It is OKAY to need closure on this. And it is OKAY to get it. You deserve that, and Dutchie (from what she has always shared) really wants you to have it.

You keep your chin up FBF, and keep getting honest with yourself, and keep getting braver. I have great hopes that you’ll make it if you do. LFW
Posted 10/10/2007 9:09 PM (GMT 0)
Dasa: Dutchie has talked at length about the racing thoughts that made her turn every bad thing or hurtful thing in her life (real or not) into something that I had caused. She says that she truelly felt like she was dealing with things at the time, the problem was that she wasn't dealing with them but rather burying them and hoping they would just go away on their own, she could not face anything that may make her appear as a bad wife or person and therefore she thought she was putting everything into our marriage and wondered why she felt so unloved and unappreciated. When the things would resurface she would fight to bury them but the resentment grew because they never went away.

Our marriage has been very confusing for me, on the surface I could never figure out why I wasn't content. Whenever I would talk about future plans or goals she always seemed to be on board but that was always just to keep the peace and make her feel that she was being a good wife. From what she has told me her feelings were always that it was easier to conform rather than risk a disagreement, therefore she always put herself in a "poor me" state, that she never got what she wanted and that her opinion didn't matter to me, she never put it together that I can't appreciate or listen to her opinion if she never voiced it and made it appear that she was perfectly happy with the way things were going.

The relationship with this guy turned into an addiction, not physically but rather hearing the things he had to say, her self asteem was so low that just hearing him say that she was beautiful made her overwhelmed with feelings of wanting to hear more, she did not believe anything good about herself so if someone was saying it then it made her feel that she needed to hear more and more, she has said it was like a drug, she couldn't get enough of hearing these good things and it made our situation that much worse because in her thoughts, he loved her and I didn't. Everything she did she justified, every time guilt or shame would creep in it would be overcome by racing thoughts that justified it. She now has a very hard time because the guilt and shame show up and the racing thoughts are gone so she has to face up to it, sometimes it becomes overwhelming for her and she tells me that she hates herself for being that person and doesn't understand how or why I love her still.

Dutchie does the reassurance thing too. Our councellor picked up on it really quickly and explained to her that the way she is operating is that any attention is good. She would put herself down so that I would say something nice, she would say "I'm a bad person" so that she could hear me say "No, your a good person", kind of the same thing she did before, she didn't believe good things about herself so if someone is saying it to her it makes her feel better. She doesn't do it as much now, only when she is feeling really down but I don't buy into it anymore, if she says anything like that I don't respond to it.

LFW: I realize the having one foot out the door is not a way to move forward, but it is very difficult when something like this happens and you look back at your marriage and think that you want to get back to having that great marriage, the problem is that I look back and realize I don't want what I had, the marriage I thought we had didn't exist so I am dealing with that also. Dutchie does not want to look back but she always had the feelings of a bad marriage and I am just discovering it, it is a lot to take in all at once and I don't really know about our future. In a sense I am half out the door and just waiting for the next thing to happen so I can justify leaving, Dutchie says that there won't be a next thing but I tell her that she is asking me to go on her word that has pretty much been destroyed by lies and deceit. I know I have a decision to make but right now either decision to me is a bad one.

We have not told many people of our situation, my parents, Dutchies mom, 2 sisters and one sister-in-law (whom she worked with, but doesn't know it was a person at work)know. That is more people than I wanted, not because I am ashamed that Dutchie has an illness but rather that people don't understand bp, look at the trouble I have and I'm working hard to try to understand it the best I can. Dutchies mom has asked her if she is still on medication, she doesn't get that this is something that isn't just going to go away like a cold. I don't want people to know because yes the affair would be embarassing to me but more so as a protection for Dutchie. You mention bp and people think you must be nuts, they don't understand or care to try to understand the complexities of this, it's not their fault, it's the stigma attached to mental illness that will probably never go away, I can admit that I thought that way before this too, so did Dutchie. I can't have people think less of Dutchie because of the affair, with the hard time I am having with all of this I see people as passing judgement on her and attaching labels which I won't have, looking at her as a bad person and ruling out any bp complications. I know I need to listen to my own words and I am trying to.

I don't know what I need for closure but I know I need something. The four of us sitting down and hearing her tell him everything is done can't happen because the group of four would quickly turn into three, I know that for certain. I would like to write the letter but that would put Dutchie and the girls in a possible situation of pain and embarrassment, Dutchie says she doesn't care if it makes her look bad if that is what it takes but she does worry that the girls would pay the price. It really feels like my hands are tied, any solution comes with consequences that may far outway what the solution was meant to fix. I just can't stand how this guy treated Dutchie, he just told her what she wanted to hear so he could get what he wanted, I can't and won't let him win.
Posted 10/10/2007 11:30 PM (GMT 0)
FBF, I get it ALL, I really DO. BUT...my friend, telling the truth is freeing, and in your attempts to "protect" Dutchie, and what people will "think of her", you are the one tying yourself up in knots. The whole point of Dutchie healing is to start to protect herself, and own her own issues, and to realize she is strong, healthy and capable of that. You need to stop focusing on taking care of her, and give yourself the same consideration. Your needs count here too. Don’t hide the truth, tell the truth, then you can LIVE in truth, and HEAL. I have ALWAYS said this phrase..."we are as sick as our secrets". I work to hold NOTHING as a secret. Grant you, I can be selective who I share things with, but I try and live in truth, and not feel ashamed. But if I screw up, and I have at times in my life, I own it, share what I did responsibly, explain if needed, and move on. People with think what they want, but at least…I live in truth.

FBF, it's as if you think you need to suffer in silence, only that doesn't do ANY of you good…including Dutchie. I am not saying shout it from the rooftops....but, honestly among those close to you – who have a vested interest in their love for you (aka a brother, best friend, etc) that can offer you some understanding when you are in pain, is a good thing. I agree that MANY don't get the term "mental illness". Personally I hate that term. I honestly view this as nothing different than diabetes, it just is other chemicals are affected vs. insulin, and they happen to be chemicals that are associated with the brain functioning at its optimum level. THAT IS ALL. Saying "mental illness" immediately causes visions of insanity with people, and trying to then explain anything from there is an uphill battle through their “filter of information”, so I don't EVER use that term...it just isn't accurate to me. Maybe if you explain it like that, it may help?

Anyway, as to the closure on this issue with this man...I don't understand what you think will happen if you send a letter to him and his wife, expressing your disgust, and anger at what he and Dutchie did to both their spouses by their actions. And while this has certainly caused you pain, you are working to fix things with your wife, and through this you’ve both discovered she was ill…etc. You have the opportunity in writing to really PURGE OUT everything while still being responsible with your words; while still telling the truth. If it blows his marriage up, that is between him and his wife. What ramifications do you think will happen if you were to send this? He would try and contact Dutchie? He would say something to the girls? Is he violent? My point is - there are ways to do this that gain that closure for you – but are still responsible, honest, forthright and FREEING. Dutchie can then send a letter with it (or add a paragraph to your letter), apologizing to the wife and stating with NO uncertainty, and making it CLEAR AS CAN BE that it is over, was a mistake, the thought of her past disgusts her to look back on it, she was ill at the time, and now she is not - and she will report him if he ever contacts her again. The thing is FBF, sometimes things get messy before they get better. You do not need to be tied up in what you feel is a no win, there is a way to turn that around and have it be a win for you and Dutchie, and that is to accept it may get messy, it may feel bad for a bit, people “may” not understand what Dutchie did, but those who care about her and you, will eventually forgive her, and will certainly be able to offer you the ability to no longer hide to “keep up appearances”. In order to have truth, you have to not hide with it, but live it. You are entitled to this FBF…Allow yourself to get what you need here. Otherwise you are allowing the poison to fester and then he does win…Everyday in your torment…He Does Win…Don't let him…..Take away HiS Power. Be brave….I really believe Dutchie is strong and clear enough now to withstand whatever comes from people, as long as she sees you fighting to want to work this out with her. Your best chance is to figure out a way to do this for yourself even if it means a bit of discomfort or embarrassment for Dutchie in the process. I have a feeling she would agree with this. Would that be correct Dutchie? LFW

I edited this post due to forum rule #14

14. No SHOUTING.  Remember, using ALL CAPITAL LETTERS in posts is considered yelling and rude, plus it is difficult to read. 

Post Edited By Moderator (olivia of course) : 10/11/2007 5:33:09 PM (GMT-6)

Posted 10/10/2007 11:33 PM (GMT 0)
I have to say FBF that you sure think things through better than most guys out there that I know. I understand about not telling people, I didn't either and I'm glad that we didn't. I could have trusted some people but really you are right, unless you live with someone with a mental illness, they don't understand and can't really give a good ear nor give good advice.

Dh decides that I'm attacking him over the least little comment alot when I'm not, just trying to make innocent conversation. It is really difficult. And he does the same as Dutchie did about fishing for compliments. It is sad. He hangs on what others say when they like him. I read that it's because the person doesn't have a good identity of themselves and they so they try to get it from others.

There is alot of resentment in our marriage too so I sure understand how you feel. Does that guy's wife know about the affair? While I wouldn't like hurting her, if I was the guy's wife.......I would want to know. But not all women would. But you are right, regardless, if you contact them in a letter or in person, it will have consequences.

That really is scary about how the Dutchie's racing thoughts allowing herself to justify what she was doing. How will it be different in the future? Is it the medication that she is on?

And Dutchie, I know you read this too,,,,,I really hope the best for you....and for your marriage.....

My dh isn't medicated and he hasn't been dx but he has so many of these behaviors I know it falls in here somewhere. He has talked about racing thoughts. But the one thing that we both have always done is talk about everything......good and bad. He never holds anything in nor do I and honesty was and is the cement that keeps us together (so far). Maybe if Dutchie is honest and always lets her feelings out from now on it will make for a better future marriage than what your past marriage has been.

Marriage is tough anyway with out all of the damage.....I know it must be very painful for you both........
Posted 10/11/2007 5:31 PM (GMT 0)
I honestly don't see what good it would do to talk to more people about our situation. They won't understand the bp and will focus on just the affair. I know my opinion when I have heard of someone cheating on their spouse, even though I would support them in working through their relationship I do look at the person differently, I don't want that for Dutchie. She is a good person that made a lot of horrible decisions and I don't want her being looked down on because she was ill.

My fear about the letter is that she may react differently than me. In the beginning I had a lot of feelings of wanting to expose all of this so that I could hear that I was right, that I did nothing wrong, that she was a bad wife and I was a good husband. I never did that because I care about Dutchie and even though this has been painful I want her to learn and grow rather than be in shame and suffer. I don't know these people, I don't know if she is going to freak out and do everything in her power to degrade and embarrass Dutchie. Dutchie says she is willing to face the consequences now but I don't want to go through with the letter only to find out it hasn't improved our situation and has made Dutchies life unbearable. I fear the possible consequences to our girls, word getting around and them being teased and tormented. I don't fear him being violent, in fact I wish he would give me the opportunity to react as it is a daily struggle not to go over and simply end him. Still thinking about the letter, I just don't know.

Dasa: The medication that Dutchie is on (lithium) has slowed down the racing thoughts, she seems to think things through more and is very conscious of the way she acts and reacts in every situation. She has totally changed since all the lies came out and she was dx'd. She is very driven as far as diet and exercise go, she talks a lot and is very open about her feelings and thoughts, she reads a lot of books and tries to gain an understanding of bp. I urge you to get him a proper dx. Dutchie was very scared in the beginning, she didn't want to take meds, when she heard that it was bp she was floored. Now that she is feeling better she has no problem with the meds, she has accepted the dx and now works hard to understand it. She never wants to go through any of this again, she didn't even realize the racing thoughts until they were gone and can't believe how difficult she had made her life. We are going to the councellor now. Dutchie will probably post this afternoon and may be able to give you some insight into the racing thoughts.
Posted 10/11/2007 9:46 PM (GMT 0)
FBF, sometimes just WRITING the letter (nothing says you have to actually send any of it either) can be VERY cathartic. Here’s a new idea…you can even keep a venting diary, and every time it wants to irrupt out of you….you vent all the vileness into that book – so you get it up and out of you – and you are not carrying this around with you anymore. It can be private, not shared with anyone else, and then when you have healed enough to feel you don’t need it anymore – put it in your fireplace, take a glass of wine, snuggle up with Dutchie, and watch it burn knowing it is now gone and really behind you because you have moved beyond it.

But, IF you are consciously choosing to do nothing about your needs regarding your closure and these issues with him, perhaps you need to recognize that IS your choice and consider that the closure then? And make a conscious choice to believe Dutchie on this when she says it is really over - and begin to allow yourself to move forward. If your belief is ever revealed to be unfounded, you will then make a new choice then.

And as to sharing this with others...I am not talking everyone, I am talking KEY important people in your life (like your brother you work with) that can be about support of YOUR pain, help in YOUR positive healing and working to save your marriage. It can't all be about Dutchie and protecting her - YOU MUST DO THE SAME FOR YOURSELF. And if YOU don't hold it as a forgivable offense under the circumstances, then how will they? But if you "get it" now, and aren’t judging or looking badly at her, then you can help them to not as well. Does that make sense? And if you choose to NOT help yourself here...then accept YOUR conscious choice about that and let yourself begin to put this behind you and commit to working to open your heart to Dutchie and your marriage again and genuinely try to make it work. You say you view people negatively, regardless of circumstances, if they have had affairs…but you say you love Dutchie and can see the compounding factors and how much she has shifted since the dx….but the thing you fear about others thinking about her…aren’t you doing by not moving forward??? Professing your love and support of her repetitively on the one hand, and disapproving of her and judging her by withholding your love back on the other. Giant contradiction don’t you think? I am not saying you don’t have a BIG justification for your hurt and anger at Dutchie and your past…of course you do, but you can not allow yourself to be on the short end of the stick all the time in terms of your needs on some of this coming first. And by holding yourself stuck or hostage by your own choices in it, you are doing just that. IF you are committing to staying – then actively do your part and start working to learn forgiveness, grieving through the stages of your loss so you can heal…and begin to allow some new, healthy and potentially beautiful and great growth between you that will allow your love a rebirth. If you do all that….sincerely….and in the end you just CAN”T make it. Then you will know down to the bottom of you that you have done all you can and will remain friends in the end for the sake of your girls. Otherwise, you will ALWAYS be chewed up inside about this all and never heal, which will in turn damage any relationship you have in the future anyway. Again…does that make sense? I think I repeated myself a lot, but do you kind of get what I am getting at? LFW
Posted 10/11/2007 10:44 PM (GMT 0)
LFW and Dasa

Thank you for your continued supportive words. I think that is where FBF is struggling righ now..is with the moving on. Hwe wants to feel some type of closure. We have been trowing around the idea of writing a letter for some time. Tonight FBF started one. I am going to write my own addressed to his wife and I will giv eit to FBF when I am done and he can then do with it what he pleases. There no doubt is a nervousness about the outcome of sending such a letter...but the fear or worry of shame is no longer for myself. As much as FBF wants and does protect me, I want to do the same for him and the girls.

Dasa...in regards to the racing thoughts. I can not describe the difference I feel since being on lithium. I never recognized that me head was racing...I believed it was just normal..everyone must go through such thought processes. I see now that there was no subject that I ever just had a clear simple thought on. EVERYTHING, every subject of thought/conversation was over-riden with several other conflicting thoughts all at the same time. It is kind of difficult to explain. But like I said, until I experienced being dx'd and starting on lithium...I never new the difference. Since being on lithium it is like I can feel a physical difference in my head....the wheels have slowed down tremendously. I don't mean slow in the way of feeling overmedicated...I mean slow in the sense of actually have clear thoughts on things and being able to make a decision and have an opinion. As sad as it might seem to someone on the outside, this is really quite a new and exciting thing to experience. This is where I feel like I finally have control in my life and I am not letting go of that.

Sorry this is quick, but I have to run, and take the girls to art class.

Dutchie
Posted 10/12/2007 12:39 AM (GMT 0)

dutchie said...



 I see now that there was no subject that I ever just had a clear simple thought on. EVERYTHING, every subject of thought/conversation was over-riden with several other conflicting thoughts all at the same time. It is kind of difficult to explain. But like I said, until I experienced being dx'd and starting on lithium...I never new the difference. Since being on lithium it is like I can feel a physical difference in my head....the wheels have slowed down tremendously. I don't mean slow in the way of feeling overmedicated...I mean slow in the sense of actually have clear thoughts on things and being able to make a decision and have an opinion. As sad as it might seem to someone on the outside, this is really quite a new and exciting thing to experience. This is where I feel like I finally have control in my life and I am not letting go of that.

Dutchie

Wow, this is great....  Dh has soooo much trouble making decisions and he wants to talk without me interrupting because he says he will lose his thoughts if I say anything before he is through.  That is nerve wracking to say the least.  It is almost impossible to have a serious conversation and to get a solution because he can't think clearly and often if it's a stressful subject he will bail out on me altogether and have to stop.

 

I thought it was ADD because he gets so easily distracted.  Of course, he could have both.  FBF is right that we need to get him to be dx.  I sure hope he can get good success like you are getting.  And I read a post from someone else once who said that getting the right medication is like putting on glasses for the first time to correct poor eyesight.  I am really happy for you, you must feel like a new person.

FBF,  you know, I agree that it's good to vent.  I use a floppy disk to get it out.  I read back on it to see the progress too.  I use to tell my sister my problems but I saw that it was beginning to affect how she felt about dh so I stopped.  I have better results venting on my disk and posting with people like this who have first hand knowledge of what I'm dealing with day to day.  She was supportive but she really didn't understand it.  I wouldn't have told my brother anything because our relationship isn't strong enough for that.  Also, didn't you say you guys have a therapist.  I hope you can get it out and learn to forgive so you can have closure.  But too, this takes time.  You have alot of resentment toward the guy so you need to deal with it at some point.  I think LWF is right about maybe just writing the letter and then watch it burn. You can also let him have it even more maybe if you aren't going to send it....... hey you could get a punching bag and pretend it's him...? 

I still have some resentment toward that other woman, no doubt, but I don't ever see her and she isn't my future.  I do need to go through the process on my own to get rid of that, I've done it with other people but not with her.  I guess I just don't like to think about her at all and would rather forget she is alive.  She was a coniving person and had no regard for my feelings at all. 

Once dh promised not to see her anymore and I forgave dh and decided to keep trying in the marriage and to give him another chance, I did better by letting the whole thing die down in order to stop feeling the pain.  Like the pain from the death of my parents.  When I was working really hard and didn't have my mind on it, I could handle it better.  When I was alone or at home on the weekend, I would get really sad and greived alot.  So, I tried to keep my mind off of it and let time take care of lessening the pain. 

Thanks to you both for helping me to understand the racing thoughts.  I can't wait to tell dh.  I'm going to read what you wrote Dutchie and see if that is what he is experiencing.  I have more hope!!  :-)

Dasa  

        

 

Posted 10/12/2007 5:28 PM (GMT 0)
Dutchie,

I hope my suggestions to FBF are things were helpful and he will do some of them. Just writing the letter, whether you send or not, can help you "get it out" sometimes so you can begin to let it go. It’s kind of like popping a hole in the balloon and air then can slowly ease out. Even the venting journal for him would be an excellent thing. He can totally keep that private and get it out of his head - rage away – as they say, let the pain and fear out into the book, so it feels freeing and safe to him. He can do this for as long as he needs...when it is done...he can burn either the letter, or venting journal, or both - as a final closing of that chapter. I really hear his struggles with it all, and that is partly because he is being the "man" and being the protector with you. Only, he needs to also take care of his needs too, and it sometimes feels like he puts himself too far down on the list, or even at all. That isn't healthy for him. You are doing SO well and learning so much about yourself now, he needs to let you start to help him a little back. THAT is what marriage is. I know you get that. I still keep the best of wishes for you both. I believe if anyone can make it through this...YOU BOTH CAN...TOGETHER! HUGS to you both. LFW
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