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Posted 8/9/2006 5:32 AM (GMT 0)
rosie,

i just wanted to second what ellie said.  improvement is a process.  if you want instant cures, watch the tele.  :-)

i am 60 years old and have had mental health problems almost all of my life.  much of it was from an abusive family environment and from being molested as a child.  i am very much improved.  i'm not sure what "better" or "cured" are.  i know that i have a good marriage, that i have travelled over most of western europe and Great Britain, as well as the usa.  i have held very responsible jobs, have been responsible for the secuity of the usa and britain, and have had more than my share of a good income.  i have survived and prospered.  as my wife (who's mostly a christian) and i (who is almost entirely jewish) acknowledge, we have been greatly blessed by the almighty (no matter His/Her name)!

i pray, rosie, that yo and your partner are blessed as we have been - a thousand fold.

Posted 8/9/2006 6:10 AM (GMT 0)
rosie,

i haven't heard the phrase "that's not fair" since i left england!  :-)

in the usa you learn pretty quick that life isn't fair.  my wife and i taught that to our grandkids pretty quick!

look at it another way:  if those people didn't have extra houses to rent, you and many others wouldn't have a place to live.  you should be thanking those people!  :-)

about 20 yrs ago, my wife and i had two rental houses in tennessee.  after my disability, we had to sell them because my income was virtually cut off at the time.  i don't feel at all guilty for having the houses.  we provided a much-needed service to the community.

what ever happened to council housing in the uk?  that was virtually the only rental housing available when i was there.

take care, luv.  all the best.

warren

Posted 8/9/2006 9:54 AM (GMT 0)
Hi Warren,

I kow you and Ellie are so right on the instant cure thing, and I *will* be patient. -- What's helped hugely is coming here when I'm feeling all demoralised and hearing some good sense from you guys. You've no idea how much I respect you all for what you've coped with, and survived (and with flying colours!). What you said about your life is a great inspiration. I suppose I worry more that my ex still wants to be "cured" or "fixed": I know it'll always be a management thing, and I have no problem with that because he's him and I love him. But he's finding it so difficult to accept improvements because they're not "total recovery" and I can't really do anything but wait for him to accept that this will not simply clear up like a cold.

I don't *really* think anyone should feel guilty for having owned more than one house -- believe me, I was being self-mocking with the "that's not fair" stuff (to me a phrase a child would use!). I'm actually blessed to have a fantastic landlord at the moment -- really landed on my feet there, and I am *very* grateful (particularly since I've had a very bad landlord before!!). Realistically, dreaming of my own house gives me something to aspire to and that's all good too. Anyway, even if I could go out and buy a house today, I'd be kicking around in it on my own and that's not how I want it: I want the house to be one I share with my ex/partner. So, in the meantime, something a bit temporary is not a bad thing -- leaves the possibility of moving towards something more permanent in the future.

Council housing is still here, but many (though not by any stretch all) of these areas suffer lots of problems from antisocial behaviour and crime. I wouldn't qualify for this anyway. There's also a lot less of it -- much sold off in the 80s and 90s.

Had a yuck day yesterday -- thought I was dealing with all this fine, but got frustrated with every little thing and it was only towards the end of the day that I admitted to myself that the frustration was just me displacing my worries about my ex. Fortunately a friend of mine was cooking supper for myself and a couple of other friends -- a really nice group that I feel very comfortable with -- and I went out and had a nice time and calmed down a lot. So I'm learning -- slowly, yes, but I'm getting there....!

Thanks again and all best wishes,

Rosie x
Posted 8/9/2006 3:37 PM (GMT 0)
hi, rosie,

sorry you had a yuck day yesterday.  i've had one of those lives.  :-)    are there any support groups there for caregivers?  from what i know about the uk when i was there, there should be a support group for spoces of people with hangnails.  :-)    your situation is that of a caregiver, just like my wife's.  it doesn't matter that you don't happen to live together, you are still his primary caregiver.  there is a terrific book here in the states called the 27 hour day.  it helped my wife a lot when i was at my worst.  i believe there are also caregiver support groups on-line that you may want to investigate.  martha, my wife, didn't find them particularly useful, but you might - you never know.

yours is a difficult position.  i can only empathise with what you and martha are going through.

i am not surprized at the degeneration of council housing.  during the 60s president johnson tried to build what he called the great society.  he had built billions of $ of what were called housing projects.  it didn't take a decade for them to degenerate into high crime areas and drug hangouts.  great ideas only work out sometimes.  as i recall, council housing was mandated by parliament but were funded by the local council which doesn't have taxing authority.  sounds like the us government.  but coucil flats did help a lot of people.  shame it didn't last.  but glad that rental property is now available.

stick with it rosie.  some day you will have that house and garden and pehaps a few rental properties.

happened to get on the computer twice in one day.  unusual.  my wife was on and had to change her ostomy bag, then take a shower.  i couldn't leave the computer lonely, now, could i?

take care.

Posted 8/9/2006 8:29 PM (GMT 0)
Hi Warren -- I'll definitely look into the book, and I even spent some time looking into support for carers today -- though I'm still having a funny time with that because he's not living with me so I feel like that's really for people who do deal with the other person themselves all the time and also they seem to be for such different things. I don't want to label myself either: I care *about* my ex nut most of the time I'm not really caring *for* him cos I can't get close enough .. not even sure that would help him... . . As I say, though, definitely the book, and thank you for the recommendation: from what you've said about you and your wife, I respect you both very much, and if the book helped her I take that as a very good recommendation.

Haha -- yes, one day I will own rental properties -- and I will be the best landlady ever!!! (In between tending my roses!)

Rosie x
Posted 8/10/2006 5:02 AM (GMT 0)

Hi, Rosie ...

Title of the book W is recommending is actually "The 36 Hour Day" and deals with the caretaker stresses of Alzheimers and Dementia.  It's now available in paperback from Amazon, and I'm sure somewhere local for you, too.

Good luck with all that is going on with your relationship.  I'm sure it is extremely difficult for both of you.  There's lots of info online and in the book stores on managing/living with bp, too.

:-)   Martha
Posted 8/10/2006 5:57 AM (GMT 0)
Thank you Martha. -- Lovely to meet you now as well as Warren. You're both very kind.

Rosie x
Posted 8/10/2006 1:47 PM (GMT 0)
leave it to m to clean up my mess.  glad she gave you the correct title of the book.

you may not be caring for him physically and enotionally, like m does for me, but you are caring for him emotionally and his health effects you directly.  it's like with an alcoholic:  their whole family is affected and may need aa or other counceling to help them cope.  it's the support of such a group that i was trying to get at.

warren

Posted 8/10/2006 6:01 PM (GMT 0)
Haha Warren -- you with your optimistic 27 hour days! No, really, I appreciate both your mention of the book and Martha's help with the title.

I know what you're saying about the caring. I think I'm just feeling defeated at the moment. I'm going to have a chat to my doc about this and how I'm feeling (not a manic depression sufferer but I've suffered from a fair bit of clinical depression in my time, and I know all that's been going on has knocked me hard and that I don't have the reserves at the moment to deal with it all that well). Thought I should do this a couple of weeks ago and then decided after an ok day that I was just feeling like anyone would with all this going on; but the last few days I've been really struggling again -- tearful, angry at silly things, constant "stress head", and a good deal of paranoia. So I'm going to bite the bullet and phone my doc tomorrow morning.

I think I worry a bit too about breaking my ex's confidence in some way by going to a group locally. Here things still have a fair bit of anonymity, even if I'm talking about really personal stuff. And I don't want my "coping" to be damaging to him. Oh, I'm just quite confused at the moment. Looked at my old box of meds today (still with some in it from last time) and I really wanted to start taking them again then and there -- but I *will* be sensible and wait till I've seen my doc for advice and/or a new prescription.

All best, as ever,
Rosie x
Posted 8/10/2006 10:21 PM (GMT 0)
Was just on msn and he made contact. Even apologised for before. Won't bore everyone with one of my obsessional recounts of the conversation, but he sounded much better again. I know -- ups and downs to be expected, all ups are good news (well, unless they turn out to be mania, obviously...!). Anyway, he's just off to phone his mum back, but said he'll catch me again after that. Just wanted to let you all know. I'm still going to be sensible and go to the doc tomorrow...

Rosie x
Posted 8/11/2006 2:10 AM (GMT 0)
as one of my dearest friends in england was fond of saying, "one swallow doesn't make a summer."  but glad he phoned.

know what you mean about the anonimity of the net.  i wouldn't dream of sharing my stuff, or my advice :-)   with very many people in person.  by the same token, there are paralinguistic signals that we give and subliminally receive that can only be observed in person.

wish you luck.

Posted 8/11/2006 7:56 AM (GMT 0)
Hi Warren --

Spot on again -- about the swallows and the signals! A few minutes into 2nd converation with ex last night he hit a low again -- though he did handle it better (didn't just bolt and did send me a kiss goodnight). I've got an appointment with my doc this morning and I'll see if she has any information about local support groups. Even if I just sit on that info for a while till I'm ready (if/when!), I think it'll help to know I have the option and some details. I'll also ask about setting up counselling again through the NHS. The counselling I'm finishing next week was available through a scheme my employers have set up, and the great thing about that was that is was available almost immediately. Sadly only for 6 weeks, however. NHS counselling will take longer to set up, but I think it's probably worth asking for it anyway. As we all know, this situation isn't just going to go away, and if I can't manage the support groups, I know I'll be able to deal with counselling because there I won't worry about confidences and anonymity. Could also do with addressing a few of my own problems that have resurfaced with all of this! :\

Rosie x
Posted 8/12/2006 1:33 AM (GMT 0)
Hi Rosie:  Kudos to you for hanging in there.  I can tell you from personal experience that I still withdraw sometimes and don't want to be around anyone.  My husband has been incredible and although its very hard for him because he wants to be so involved in every aspect of my life, he just gives me the space I need.  My daughter is bi polar also and she has a much harder time that I do.  I think her mind is still cluttered, while mine is clearer that its ever been.  Speaking of books, there is a book called "An Unquiet Mind" . Its written by a physician who is bi polar and her insights were so helpful to me as a bi polar person.  I did share parts of it with my husband and I think it helped him understand me a little better.  I would read a certain page or so and think "That is so me."  "That sounds just like me."  So in that way it is validating to someone who is bi polar but it also helps those who have to deal with us.  I think you are an amazing person.    Lazy

Posted 8/12/2006 9:52 AM (GMT 0)
Hi Lazy -- Thanks for your very kind words. I don't feel very amazing at the moment. -- Started again on Citalopram yesterday, which is good news but also made me feel rather fuzzy and queasy most of the day. Even that was fine, and I had a pretty good day just accepting what I know are temporary side-effects and feeling relieved that I'd finally got some help ... until ... msn contact from my ex/partner (sorry, never know what to call him, and don't want to use name in case he ever finds this site and is upset by that). He was actually sounding ok, but said he's about to resign from his job and take his employers to court. Thing is, he got injured at work a while back (ripped almost right through lots of tendons in arm and shoulder and broke his arm); it was not at all his fault -- injured trying to prevent someone else from getting hurt. Anyway, he's been off work (because his job -- ambulance service, ironically -- involves a lot of physical work that he simply can't do with one arm out of action and a load of tramadol in his system), and has now been told that his pay will be halved after 3 months sick leave (used to be 6 but contract is rubbish and has changed); half his pay won't even cover his current rent. He got very angry about this and reminded them that he'd been injured *at* work doing his job. They pretty much said it wasn't their problem. So he's planning to take them to court with some injury lawyers, and to resign. I'd thought he was going back on light duties this coming week, so am a bit confused as the 3 months aren't up yet. And I'm ashamed to say that, even though I think what they're doing is all sorts of cr*p, I can't help wondering if his reaction is a bit extreme given that he was going to be back on light duties soon. And he was really doing some great stuff with the service and when his current training was up he'd be in a really good position to get promotion very fast and do things he's been wanting to do.

He was also saying that he's contacted a sort of medical agency to do consultancy work, and he was talking about working in London because the pay's better. Doesn't know where he'd live, but mentioned that he'd probably commute. Thing is, he *hates* London -- hates busy cities -- and that made me think he's turning this into a self-fulfilling prophecy where he goes somewhere he'll hate and then ... hates it (which will just make things worse).

Well, in my fuzziness I just didn't know how to respond and felt like I didn't have the energy to fight it or be encouraging and helpful. I clearly wasn't on form, so I said I wasn't having the best day and explained it as pmt. He of course said it was more likely it was him, and though I said that wasn't the case, I know it kind of is and he knows that too -- and now he will beat himself up about it and I don't want that. Can't tell him I was all spacey and disconnected because of the depression and the new meds, because then he'll think he's solely responsible (which I truly believe he isn't: I know I have these tendencies, even if this stress has triggered it again) and then he'll feel even more guilty.

I didn't have a go at him or anything, but I didn't connect, and I feel so bad about that. I felt so disheartened and I didn't feel like I could do anything to pretend I was ok -- or rather I didn't want to, which is so much worse because I normally really want to keep upbeat for him. I'm now afraid what damage I've done, but I'm still fuzzy and can't be sure that if I chat to him again I won't make things worse.

Thanks for listening.

Rosie x
Posted 8/12/2006 4:18 PM (GMT 0)
You're trying so hard for him Rosie, maybe too hard. You shouldn't have to pretend to feel upbeat, or hide your depression and pain. You've put a great burden on yourself that may be too great for you to carry. It is not your responsibility to fix him, to put up a shiny facade so all is beauty and light. The world isn't beauty and light and you can't be upbeat all the time. Noone is.
I know you want to help him, but don't put too much pressure on yourself. You're important too. In the end, if he gets it together, or doesn't for that matter, it's going to be because of him, what he wants, what he works for, not because of you. None of this is your fault. Remember, you need healing and understanding too.
Take Care
Ellie
Posted 8/12/2006 10:35 PM (GMT 0)
rosie,

i would like to second what ellie & lazy (i've never known a lazy nurse before :-) ) said.  you are responsible for yourself.  noone else.  keep your cup full.  share some of it but never all of it.  shum he who would take without your permission - he is an energy vampire.  you are never responsible for another person's actions or inactions.  some say the West and isreal are responsible for jihad.  that's rediculous!  i didn't strap any suicide vests on any children, did you?  each person, including your ex, his responsible for his/her own actions.  i may be crazy, but i ain't stupid.  martha does her thing and i do mine.  we try to help each other along the way.  it works pretty well.

one other question, rosie.  when we were living in england, national health was the primary source of medical care.  i had private insurance through my employer, but when m needed surgery, NHS was able to provide it more quickly than my private ins.  had all of this changed?  if so, what a bloody shame!

take care,

warren

Posted 8/13/2006 2:00 AM (GMT 0)
Hi Rosie:  I agree with Ellie and Warren.  you are putting too much on yourself.  The move and the better pay sounds to me like grandiose ideas which is a symptom of bi polar.  I used to get those and I would take on some BIG task that was way over my head and of course I would fail.  I called it "magical thinking".  And I appreciate the term "energy vampire."  That's pretty descriptive and accurate as well.  I call that "sucking the life out of me."  My daughter is bi polar also and she is VERY needy.  Everytime I try and help her she starts dumping more and more on me.  It is so difficult to help someone like that.  What it comes down to is that we all have to help ourselves.  We can be a safety net but we can't make things happen for other people.  Sounds like you need to take care of YOU.  So please, please take care of yourself first now.  If you get down and out you won't be any good to anyone.  ........Lazy

Posted 8/13/2006 10:29 AM (GMT 0)
Thank you Ellie, Warren and Lazy, and sorry for the delayed response. Elle and Warren, I read your supportive replies yesterday but I just felt so shut down and couldn't motivate myself to respond -- even though all I really wanted to say was that what you said made such sense and I was grateful. I know that's the Citalopram, and to be honest it's not a bad feeling because it's also shielding me from panic and obsessive behaviour.

It's so difficult to love him and admit that he is sucking the life out of me -- or rather that I'm letting myself have the life sucked out of me, and I think that's important because I know it's not only him to blame with how I've come to feel. Maybe it's a good thing that the Citalopram's making me feel so disconnected!

Lazy, your mention of "grandiose ideas" was exactly what I was worried he's going through. It's all "throw everything in" and move on to the next "big thing", a thing that has no real substance. And the more I think about it the more I'm positive he's not been off for 3 months, so sounds to me like he's telling me (and himself) that this stuff about half-pay is a rational reason for quitting, when in fact it's not. I'm going to ask him to hold off doing anything until he's chatted this over with his pdoc (will try to find a not too harsh way of putting that!). -- His pdoc tends not to mince her words, and is altogether much better qualified than me to tackle this one! I might also ask if they every review his meds as a way of maybe getting him to bring that up with her. -- I'm sure *something* needs tweaking or changing: he's been doing the meds for 4 months now ... mind you, he's also drinking which can't be helping ... . Ok, I'll mention, but I won't worry!!!

In the meantime, I'm going to start making some plans -- maybe visit my old friends in Manchester. You are all spot on with the advice to look after myself -- again! Sorry if I don't seem to be listening -- I really *am*!!!

Rosie x

P.S. Oh Warren, things have changed *a lot* with NHS vs. private health care. Usually takes a good 6 months to get counselling with NHS these days! Waiting lists for everything are a really big issue these days -- lots of news coverage and government "initiatives" ... simple truth is, the NHS is massively overstretched.
Posted 8/13/2006 11:28 PM (GMT 0)
He's just told me he's not going to his pdoc appointment tomorrow, or again. He was very nauseous, burping/retching. He's been on mirtazapine (Remeron) -- changed from Prozac and Diazapam -- and I just found a website saying that's not approved for bipolar... . He definitely seems to me to have mania as well as depression. Apparently his pdoc hasn't yet diagnosed him ... after 4 months. To be honest, I've kind of lost patience with her, but his refusal to go back seems to be more than just that. I don't know what to do. Is there anything I *can* do?

Rosie x
Posted 8/14/2006 12:57 AM (GMT 0)
Hon, if he's no danger to himself or others, you can't do anything. At least for him. If he chooses to suffer, so be it. You may have to let him go until he's miserable enough to get some help. Maybe its time to concentrate on you and stop giving him attention for bad behavior. It almost sounds like a ploy to get you to beg him to get help. You've done all you can. Now it's up to him and this is not your responsibility.
Try not to worry, (easy to say I know)
Ellie
Posted 8/14/2006 6:10 PM (GMT 0)
Thanks again Ellie -- you're wonderful to keep giving me such support, and I know this thread's been a bit of an ongoing (and at times rather long-winded -- sorry!) saga. I decided you were right about him playing up with me and have taken a step to get him talking to someone else who won't be quite as tolerant of this. He always told me not to discuss his condition with anyone ... but ... I contacted his best friend, who, as expected, knew nothing about what's been going on, though he was aware my ex hasn't been doing great. Unfortunately his best friend lives 200 miles away, but he's going to see if my ex will open up to him, and is planning a surprise visit so that ex doesn't put on a big act like everything's ok. We're going to keep each other updated on how things seem to each of us, and see if we can do anything by joining forces. I'm so relieved to have someone who knows him and who he listens to know all of this. I feel exhausted and have been breathing so badly (as only an anxiety sufferer can, eh?!), but also like a massive weight's been lifted off my shoulders.

Rosie x
Posted 8/16/2006 12:01 PM (GMT 0)
Hi all,

Last night ex admitted he has an alcohol problem -- drinks every day, about 2 bottles of wine. I'd asked him the other day to discuss his drinking with his pdoc, but then he hit me with the "I'm never going back" bit. This I hope is progress -- though he also didn't sound much like he felt like doing thing about it (kind of "to he|| with everybody"), and he was drunk at the time... . He also said there was something else he'd realised, but by the time he'd told me about the drinking (he claimed - ?) he couldn't remember what it was.

He's also been told that he'll never be able to work operationally again with what's happened to his arm and shoulder. So resigning from his current job is now inevitable anyway. Well, at least this will be easier to explain on future job applications... .

Rosie x
Posted 8/16/2006 3:26 PM (GMT 0)
Perhaps AA might not be a bad idea. Or some other alchol abuse support group. I know my ex has been in AA for nearly a decade and has been sober all that time. It really changed his life.
Alcohol can cause many of the personality changes you've described as well. But bipolar individuals do tend to self medicate. Booze to lessen the high, uppers to ease the low, happens all the time. Did you ever clear up the confusion about his pdoc? I know you had said you had looked her up and there was no such name. Have you actually seen the meds with her name on them?
I hope he appreciates the friend he has in you. You're putting more effort into this than most people would.
Ellie
Posted 8/17/2006 12:03 AM (GMT 0)
For those of us who have significant others who are addicted to alcohol or drugs there is Al Anon. It was a lot of support for my husband and I when our son was on drugs.
Posted 8/17/2006 10:54 AM (GMT 0)
Thanks Ellie and Lazy. -- Yes, I wish he'd go to AA ... instead, he's decided to do this cold turkey, no support: told me last night that now he knows there's a problem he's just going to stop. Great! -- except that's so much easier said than done... . He was pretty silent on the phone last night -- one of those painful conversations where I kept feeling like I had to say things like "so, what are you up to tomorrow?" and got pretty brief answers -- as if we hardly knew each other. On the plus side, it's not him talking away in an obsessive fashion, but it's odd anyway. He told me he's decided he has to sort out getting a job and everything else he just has to block out while he does that. I'm pleased he's sorting stuff out, but concerned at the same time. Not even sure why anymore!!!

He says he's written a letter to his pdoc saying he's not going back. This is good, I guess: now she'll be aware of what he's doing ... though I'm not sure there's anything she can do if he's stated in writing that he's quitting sessions.

Thanks again for your help in this.

Rosie x
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