BP (?) 15 yo Daughter, change of venue

When bipolar disorder begins before or soon after puberty, it is often manifested
by continuous rapid cycling irritablily and mixed symptoms, which may co-occur with
disruptive behavior disorders.  The rapid cycling/mixed state is one in which children switch in and out of depression, irritable mania with explosions and euphoric mania unpredictably and throughout the day, almost everyday, with very little time spent in a regular age appropriate mood state.

This is her to a T.  Day in and day out. She was doing very well on 300 Wellbutrin, 5 Lexapro and 10 Ambilify (Depression, Anziety and Bipolar traits but never an official diagnosis). She has always been my "child of extremes". Very difficult - Opposition Defiance Disorder was mentioned a lot.

Well, she decided to go off her meds. Now I am convinced she IS bipolar. Her dad (whom she has seen twice in 8 years) wasn't convinced she needed to be on them. So off she went. Life has been hell. I have been pushed, slapped, barricaded in a room. I have had the most vile things screamed at me for hours on end. My 12 yo is afraid of her sister. Our whole life revolves around this illness. I am unable to get help for her because she is not yet sick enough to be hospitalized. Yet, if she hurts her sister CPS will step in.

I have reached the end of my rope (it is too much of a toll on my youngest and I really am afraid she will get hurt) and told her she could go live with her dad. He lives overseas with a new wife and their two children. She claims HATES me but needs my constant support and attention. Is unwilling to do much for herself. I sit with her with homework (to help her focus) while she berrates me for being stupid. She hates me but sneaks into my room to sleep next to my bed. I do things for her then she turns around and tells me I CAN'T tell her what to do because I don't own my house (like millions of others I have taken a loan out - so, she should have the bank manager gound her?)...

So, I guess my question is about change in environment. She worships her father (total fantasy of him and what he is really like), and his wife (they met for a weekend) and "adores" his kids (one of whom is ADD). I'm sure it will be just peachyfor a while. I am wondering if a new environment, structure might help her pull it together? WANTING them to accept her might encourage her to keep it together? Or will she crash and burn after a few weeks?

Our life now revolves around her (much like when you have a 3 yo you plan your day around nap time and tantrums), that won't happen in this new family. She is unwilling to take any responsibility for herself and her step mom ill be busy with her own kids. She truly believes everything should revolve around her - this won't, obviously be the case. Her dad IS NOT who she thinks he is and anyway he won't be around much. She has a lot of anxiety issues and is very self conscious and here she will be starting a new school in another country (currently she wears a uniform and she is terrified to make her own decision about clothes).

My feeling is 1) she will thrive and do well and pull it together 2) she will realize all her troubles are within her (instead of with me as she insists) and perhaps she will go back on SOME of the meds 3) she will start to act the same way in this new environment and her dad WILL NOT cut her the slack that I have and she will crash and burn (who bad I don't know).

Am I getting to a question? I don't know., Just thoughts and insight are appreciated.

 

Yes. She is under the care of a psychologist and psychaitrist.

They just say SHE NEEDS HER MEDS.

Her dad thinks I am the problem and doesn't believe in meds or mental illness. I know it sounds like I am sending her into an unfit environment but I just can't take it nor can I expect my other daughter to suffer.

Hmmm-

I'm not trying intentionally to be skeptical but it is very difficult to diagnose Bipolar Disorder in young people.  Unfortunately, teenagers may exhibit "symptoms" that may just be part of a rocky progression to growing up.  These things aside, you must have your daughter properly diagnosed by a proffessional psychiatrist, preferably one that is a medical doctor as well.  Even then, most medical specialists should be wary of rushing to conclusions because this is a condition that will follow somebody for the rest of their life.  Try the medication for now, and perhaps let her live with her father.  Maybe it won't work, but the only way to convince her would be allowing that transition to occur.  She may be bipolar, but certainly wait to assume this and not on psychological definition you have found.  This disorder is extremely complicated and it will likely take years, or atleast into adult hood to really know what is going on.

D

Hi Ashya,

Welcome to HW! It's so good to meet you, and I really hope we can help because you're going through a really tough time.

I have to say that I am really skeptical about your daughter going to live with her father when he doesn't really accept her diagnosis: accepting this is crucial to helping your daughter. And (late) teens is a typical time for the onset of bp: if your daughet is lucky enough to have been treated for this at this time (which suggests to me diagnosis of bp because the meds say it all), then it would be crazy to lose this advantage. Coming of meds with bp is *very* dangerous: there is a seriously high likelihood of an extreme progression into mania or depression (usually mania) within 6 months.

What I would do is go to the pdoc and psychologist with her next time, and stress that you and she need to know the diagnosis, and you both need to be better informed (though I sense you are already a lot better informed than your daughter!). Push for any information and advice that can be given. If your daughter still refuses meds, have a talk with her pdoc about options: because she is under the "adult" age (when she is deemed responsible for herself) there may be more options for you to enforce meds (maybe through her being taken into hospital). However hard that may seem, remember that you will not be the first parent of a bp sufferer to have had to do this, and those who do always do it through love. Even if your daughter "hates" you for a while, in the long term she will realise that you had her best interests and health in mind, and that such a sacrifice proves love more that brief meetings, "adoration" and dismissal of a serious medical condition.

Do keep posting hun.

Rosie x

To all you BP sufferers (and I do believe this is the case given what her pdocs have said - not to mention her behavior) I am wondering if the lashing out is real.

I mean the vile things she says to me I take as being a part of her illness (at least I hope so) and i know that I do indeed care about her, I know I do things for her (she claims I don't and that only her father - who sends no support and never sees her does), she wishes I was dead, that her sister was dead, she thinks that because she hasn't shot me that it means she is in control. My days are filled with one threat or another. She is constantly trying to one up me and truly feels that she should be in charge of the family and she shouldn't be punished or asked to do ANYTHING other than what she wants to do. She is bound and determined that everyone should be as miserable as she is.

So, I wonder if she ever gets herself medicated, will she be able to remember her beaviour? Or will she truly go through life thinking she wasn't cared for.

I should mention that her father is a diagnosed narcissist. Very wealthy, she will have whatever she wants materially (which matters a great deal to her) but the relationship will be very surface.  She craves (demands) attention from me at every step of her day, and will have very little of that with her dad...

Sorry, I am rambling here. I just haven't found much on prognosis or how this will progress with her as she matures.

So I see her psychaitrist today (without her) and first he says that her moving might not be a bad idea. She and I are different personalities and it sounds like she is much like her dad. Perhaps she will be more successful modeling him. He is on this track for a while then turns and says there were really other options...

HELLO. Phone calls (several) to him, the psychologist, the police, a detective (twice), school nurse (several), school advisor (several), my insurance company...NO ONE HAD ANYTHING to offer other than I should get her on her meds. Ya, right.

He suggested that I should have called the police when she refused to take her meds (!!??). that maybe an outward bound camp would be better. That there were plenty of options and somehow I should have been aware of this and doing more.

I tell him what's going on whith her pushing and hitting her sister and me and he fills out a CPS report and calls it in as well. They are going to interview each of my daughters. I don't know what this means for me - sould they make my younger daughter live somewhere else?

Then he tells me she is bipolar. I tell him he has never said this to me before. And he got all pissy with me. OF COURSE SHE IS IT IS HERE IN MY NOTES FOR MONTHS. Yes, but I never saw your notes, you never said to me directly that she is BP, when I asked if she was being treated for BP with the Ambilifi the issue was skirted around. He told me all I had to do was ask. HUH? I think that is bad Dr/patient/parent communication.

So, now what? I don't know. Come back and see him in a week or two (if I can get an appointment). Meanwhile I will suffer the wrath of my ex and her because they will feel I reneged on her going to live with him.

I am so so so tired. I just want to sit on my couch and watch a movie with my younger daughter in peace - that isn't asking much, is it?? I want to not dread getting up in the morning and coming home at night. I have been doing this on my own fo 12 years with only 2 weekends to myself. I know I sound like a complete whiner -- I just want someone who knows what they are talking about to offer solid advice that I can take action on.

Hi Ashya,

This pdoc sounds like a loon!! Can you investigate the possibility of getting someone else to deal with your daughter? (I know it's difficult with insurance as not all pdocs are available for different programmes.)

I just started to wonder if maybe this pdoc isn't part of the problem for your daughter? He sounds like a nightmare. -- You don't like seeing him, and you don't find him easy to talk to; I'm sure I'd feel the same way; maybe your daughter does to? Could you raise this with her? Ask her what she thinks of him? Perhaps finding a more sympathetic (and capable!) pdoc would help her? Perhaps part of her rebellion against the meds is a rebellion against him? It might be a good way of having a mother-daughter talk too: if she sees you concerned about this and is able to identify then she may start to see you as being more on the same side?

I would check out what options are available to you pdoc-wise first though -- make sure that changing docs is an option before you talk to your daughter about it.

Can you get some therapy fot yourself too? You are going through a heck of a time and some counselling where you can go and let everything out and talking options through might help? It's good to have a non-judgemental and uninvolved ear sometimes. :)

Rosie x

Morning Ashya,

your a good mother! trying your hardest to find whats best and that pdoc should have told you what might be the diagnose and when he decided on it with no doubt in his mind to tell you. Why do you have to ask, you have a lot of things in your mind as a parent of two let a lone to think of questions to ask him...grrrr. I don't appreciate the pdoc...hehehe. Sorry about the rant.

I kept thinking about your youngest daughter...I don't think it's fair to her. That's why I think having your daughter live with the ex for awhile will give you two sometime together to watch that movie ^ . ^. Have some peace in your home. I know from personal experiance that I loved my mother and she did A LOT to keep me and my brother happy and she was a wonderful model...except I lashed out on her. When you say your daughter wants your attention every second of the day that reminded me of me. I threw horrible tantrums and thank goodness my brother was eight years older since I tried to fight him...a lot...he just pushed me on the couch....after 5 times I got frustrated knowing i couldn't beat him and stormed off. Unfortunatly your younger daughter can't toss her on the couch. You really do care for both of them and trying to find whats best.

I knew that my father didn't want to be in the picture but I used that against my mother making him in a good role while putting her down...I hate remembering the things i've done. I don't know how close they are...does he call her on a regular basis? Another thing is if it doesn't work out, he'll set rules and she wont like them. She'll realize hopefully how much you've done for her and how much you truly love her. Maybe her dad will in the end wake up saying she needs help, then maybe just maybe she'll take the medicine.

Your doing so much research but maybe letting her live with her dad will be best for everyone and you could always do a trial (?) say for two months or so...I'm not sure what to say I haven't been a mother yet and it's easier for me to say let her go with dad but I know you'll miss her. I'm rambling on again...sorry
I hope for the best for you and your daughters.
Now I want to curl up on the couch and watch a movie ^ . ^

~ Kimberly~

Ashya,

I'm so glad your talking about your daughter, it gives clearity of me when I was little. My mother was in denial so my behavior just kept going, she blamed herself for some bad memories.

I was like that too, I didn't think anyone else was that way. I wanted something I would get it then a few minutes later I wanted another thing. I was never really satisfied with what I had.

With the fear it's sad to say but it's realistic...I mixed up so many stories I thought were true and they weren't. I blocked a lot of my memories for somereason and it's hard to go back to the real happy ones. I think the sooner she gets help the sooner she can heal. I'm not sure how old your daughter is, just older then 12 yrs. but thank goodness your looking into everything now before she hits 18 and is no longer under your control legally. I just hope she is able to recieve help and find her way before she moves into adulthood (out of the house age) or it'll be an even rockier road.

Every decision has a consicuence I think...even small ones. We just never know how big those consicuences are that's why it's hard to make decisions the uncertainty of it all...the probability that it might to turn out bad. why do we always think things toward the bad concicuences instead of the good! maybe cause we fear the bad. sorry went on a so called philosophy trip.

Sun follows the rainy days as spring follows winter. Hope happy days come to you.
~Kimberly~

Thanks for the advice - I DO wish there was someplace she could go for the weekend - we could all use a break! But she has always had odd friendships. She will talk about her BEST friend...but doesn't know their last name, the spelling of their first name, where they live or their phone number. She seems to focus on one person then the friendship is suddenly off.

I DO think there will be a Come to Jesus when she is with her dad. I think she will be enamoured at first (he is extremely wealthy) but he is a true, and diagnosed Narcissist. She thinks that it will be a fairy tale for rags to riches (no, his wealth doesn't extend to actually paying child support), in reality she will not have the attention that she craves and she will not be the child he thinks she is or that he wants her to be.

She is seeing a psychaitrist and a psychologist who specialize in kids like her. They have not convinced her to go back on her meds. Before she was taking the Ambilify (wonder drug for her) she was hallucinating  - Saw smoke coming out of her fingers and a small boy riding a bicycle in her room (she was 13 at the time).

She will be completely out of her comfort zone in a new country, in a new culture, in a new family, new school. I am worried that all that might be a stressor that causes a huge breakdown but I have no choice at this point. For her sake she needs to find out about her dad and he needs to find out about her. And I think that she needs to learn something about herself.

CPS stopped by today because her Doc filed a report on her against her sister and me. I wasn't home so they left a note to call. Not sure what to expect.

I can only imagine what is going through her mind when she is screaming and raging at me. She says the most vile things and never ever has shown any remorse. Has never apologized in any way. Has never accepted ANY responsibility for anything she has done. And I don't know if she is incapable of feeling those things or that she really doesn't feel she has done wrong or if she doesn't remember or is too embarrassed? I don't know how she can possibly have so much contempt and hatred for me (Ya, I get all teens resent their parents but this goes so far beyond that).

I wonder if, as I send her off, it will be the last time I will see her. I can see this disease getting the better of her and her not surviving it and I can see how she might twist everthing that has happened and believed that she was sent away.

Rambling...

Sorry to hear what your daughter and the family is going through.  At least now your daughter has both parents agreeing on a plan of action.  Even if you and your husband are divorced, you can now agree on what your daughter needs.

There is no question that your daughter needs help right now.  The best plan of action would be to try to get her hospitalized until she is stablized more.  If that is not an option then you will have to seek outpatient help.  Have your ex-husband find a good doctor over there to treat her.  Once she is on meds it should help a great deal.  However, a lot of the meds take time to work.

If your daughter was in the U.S.(sorry I don't what country you are in) there are some options for school.  I know that some states have alternative schools for kids with issues.  If a school knows that a kid has been hospitalized they will have to work with you.  They might be more leniant about making up missed work etc.

You might also want to re-evaluate whether being overseas is still the best thing for your daughter.  If she can get the better treatment were you are, perhaps she should come home.  This obviously will mean that you will have to discuss this with your ex.  The best decision will take some collaberation with your ex, your daughter, and members of health care.

My daughter and every mother's story you will read about where the daughter has bipolar and the mother is struggling to get help will be the same.  I'm sorry to tell you that, but more than helping your daughter you've got to make sure you take care of yourself first.  That sounds selfish, but right now I'm devastated financially, spiritually, emotionally, can't function, can't think of anything, just my daughter and no matter what I did the result was the same - she just can't live with me and I cannot control this thing.  I've done and said and tried everything you've mentioned and what everyone else has mentioned and I want to warn you about people giving advice that are bipolar because their point of view will not work for you and leads to further guilt.  Guilt is not something you should be owning or accepting from anyone.  Medication is great, not a cure all.  Lithium worked within 10 days on my daughter's hard to treat bipolar, everything else made her sick, shaky, fat, etc.  It is not dangerous.  Read up on it.  They want to convince you to try new meds because they make more money off of them.  Lithium is about 12.00 - total cost a month, not insurance cost.  I'm telling you this now to maybe give you a chance to not go to the ends of the earth trying to fix something that you cannot.  Just take one day at a time, do not change your morals, your household, your job, your home, your friends, your likes and dislikes for this disease, you will end up with nothing.  There will be no one to pat you on the back and martyr's usually don't live long.  Please listen to what I'm saying, I'm telling you the truth.  Take care of your needs first and foremost and then do what you can for your daughter and let anybody and everybody who will help, listen or comfort YOU do so.  Don't waste one minute of your life wondering what you could have done differently and do not ever convince yourself that you are to blame for this in any way whatsoever.  Don't also try to convince yourself you are some kind of superhero that has got the patience of a monk and are willing to suffer the rest of your life trying to fix this.  It's not fixable, it's not even livable, not for a mother.  Let her go to her father's and let her stay there if you want to remain in her life.  She will eventually be out of yours if you keep her at home, or you will lose your sanity, your job, your money, the relationship you have with your friends, neighbors and other kids.  I'm not kidding.  Your child is not a disease or evil or unloved, but your child will do you in if you don't get help for yourself first and her secondly.  You are the one that needs all the help - no one ever bothered to tell me that, give me that or see to one need of mine and now, even after 5 years of struggling with every kind of problem you can imagine, I'm back to square one and she's at her dad's again, the one who was not kind and compassionate or guiding or sympathetic, the one who was in denial, not affected and did not stop his life.  Your daughter will play off of your protectiveness and you will fall into many traps.  The war is really not against bipolar, the war is with yourself.  You've got to make the decision to either leave her at her father's or put her in a treatment center.  Otherwise, trust me, there will be no daughter to see much less ever enjoy the company of.  She'll dismiss you, you use, lie about you, embarass you, break you, shock you, repulse you, and nothing will ever be enough.  Well, look at me.  I'm not telling you to sever your ties with your daughter and stop caring, I'm telling you nothing will ever relieve your pain and your misery if you have to live in it everyday.  You can fare much better with visits.  There will always and mean ALWAYS be manipulation.  Be careful of manipulation and just try to have some fun here and there with your daughter - it will be enough as time goes on.  I hung onto my daughter so long, so tight, suffered so much, and did it all alone that it is at the point now, she's 16, that I can no longer even be in the same room with her.  The hurts are too deep and the healing will be a long time coming on my end.  However, she has shown no sign whatsoever of hurting over me not being around, and she is still focused on getting what she wants and nothing else.  Go live your life lady, smile, be happy and don't let this kill you like I let it do to me.  She's been gone a month this time and I'm just now smiling again.  Most times when I laugh, it hurts my face because it had been so long.  No one can live with so many hurdles.  I could tell you stories that would drop your jaw.  But, the bottom line is the same.  I've been reading these things for years and all the books and studied every medication there is, alternative and otherwise. I had binders of information, help resources, you name it.  The bottom line, my hope, was that there was an end of that road.  I'll tell you what no one else will, there is no end of that road.  As long as you are owning your daughter's every move, every word, you will suffer.  The only solution is to hang tight to yourself and make a list of what you will and will not do and then stick by it.  Don't let any conversation deter you from what your heart and mind tell you to do and do not by any means not do something that you thought you should do because of the fear she puts in you about cutting or hurting herself.  That's a hold she will have on you.  My daughter has hung off a bridge, jumped in the car on the freeway with boys she didn't know, cut herself, assaulted people, ....... she held me hostage from reacting the way I wanted to many times because I read some stupid book that said "keep the situation calm"..... "talk to them this way"...... blaa blaa.... one time she was hanging out the bedroom window and instincts yelled "well, you better jump otherwise I'll throw you out"  - guess what the freakin leg came back in the house.  You see what I'm saying.  Don't use lessons in books, don't use everyone's advice, use your own, but this is something easy to follow, just simple little things.  Take care of yourself and make a list of what you will and will not do and how far you are willing to go and make sure you are not trying to prove yourself noble and ditch the guilt.  Everyone of those things have me now on a long recovery back to smiling and socializing.  One more thing, it's OK to be mad.  You are entitled to feel any way you want - you aren't the doctor, you get to be the patient's mom and you get to be the patient sometimes too.  Take care, write back if you aren't completely appauled by my highly unsympathetic comments.  That's the thing that always got to me too, everyone looking at me with that sympathetic wirey little smile.  What would that sympathy be there for, my suffering.  I'd rather them had been helping me and then we'd be doing nothing but talking and laughing together.  I didn't want anymore sympathy = I wanted legitimate concrete help with the situation.  I didn't want concern or bad advice, I wanted specific things I could do.  I hope I gave some of them to you tonight.  Take care.  PS YOU ARE NOT A FAILURE AS A MOTHER IF ONE OF YOUR CHILDREN LIVE WITH THE OTHER PARENT.  Anybody questionning that or ridiculing you for that - get away from them - they are ignorant and not your friends.