HealingWell
Search Close Search
☰

a lot to deal with

Support Forums
>
Bipolar Disorder
✚ New Topic locked
1 2 3
❬ ❬ Previous Thread |Next Thread ❭ ❭
Posted 7/17/2007 1:39 PM (GMT 0)

Good Morning Dutchie (it's morning here)...

Okay...So, for the whole "root of the problem" in my opinion, I feel you have in fact uncovered a significant part of that.  First in indentifying the bipolar and also acknowledging that bp might not be all of the cause of everything.  I think you just feel a need to sort everything out.  But that does not mean you haven't gotten to the root of it.  I believe you have, otherwise, you would not have been able to start this whole healing process with the meds, therapy etc.  I may be wrong, but is it your husband who feels you haven't gotten to the root or is it you, or both?  I just think you have, and now you have to work through it, which is what you have been doing.

I just don't want to see you not giving yourself some credit for taking steps and for begining at that root.  You need to try (I know it's hard for you, so much guilt and so much confusion) to really give some credit to yourself.

If you still feel that you haven't gotten to the root, the journaling exercise LFW described is excellent.  It works.  The whole question/answer thing.  It's a great effective method, seriously.  Something to help with that, the book "Loving Someone with Bipolar Disorder-Understanding & Helping Your Partner" by--Julie A. Fast & John D. Preston.  Go see if you can find this book at the library or buy it if you can.  It goes through the journaling, answering truthful questions about yourself and how you feel.

Also what LFW said about telling your therapist about what you want and need to be going, I agree with that as well.

I am not on meds, b/c I cannot tolerate the side effects of mood stabilizers and anti-psychotics, and none of the meds we tried (I tried so many) worked, not only that, but they made my depression so severe, I almost ended in the hospital.  So I went off by (first telling my pdoc) and then going into a bp Support Group at one of the hospitals here (referred by my pdoc, you can ask yours if there are any in your area...).  I chose to try and manage things through CBT (Cognitive Behavioral Therapy) skills and other coping strategies, crisis plans etc.  It has been working until recently.

Anyway, need to wrap this up...Take care, breathe, and try to be patient.  I know it's hard.  We're here for you.  (((((bigHUG)))))

Posted 7/18/2007 12:46 AM (GMT 0)
LFW and Mogs

Thanks again. The struggles continue. The following is a letter to Footballfan. He is working tonight and left quite angry with me. Shortly before he left we were talking and he asked in the process of the conversation if I had seen "him" at all. Though there has been no contact in the last 10 weeks, yes I have "seen" him on two occassions. Once he did not even see me and another I was in line at the checkout of a store and I happened to look up and see him...he smiled, I just looked down and away. A conversation with Footballfan was if there was contact made would I tell him, and I said yes and I meant it. I am working so hard at being honest, I certainly don't want to screw things up any more than I already have.

Anyway the following is a letter to him because he is at work tonight. I am hoping he goes on this sight to read this. I have nothing to hide from him and I am not ashamed to let you view what I am about to write.

Footballfan, I am sorry for this additional pain I seem to inflict on you, Even when I am doing everything I can, to do everything right, I still somehow seem to hurt you. In my defense, your words to me were that if contact were made, would I tell you; and my answer is a definite yes. I apologize for not taking every scenario into consideration. If you need to know any time I may "see" him than yes I will tell you that as well. I am not trying to hide anything from you. I was not avoiding telling you either. You have to understand that certain things are beyond my control. I can only take control over how I now react to things. I want nothing to with this man now, and I know in the future. I see and feel how he assisted in destroying my life and for that I have hate.

You are frustrated greatly with me for not offering up any information along the way. I honestly don't know what you are looking for. For quite a while you asked questions; and yes I see how it must have felt like pulling teeth to get answers. Giving up answers and the truth was a very painful process, and keeping it in meant not facing the pain. Even now I am confused as to what more I can tell you. I left it up to you to ask the questions just because that is what felt like the right thing to do. The fact is, you know what happened. I sinned against you, the girls, our marriage and myself. I am saddened greatly by that. Somewhere along the line I am suppose to forgive myself for that.

In truth it feels like we have revisited the facts multiple times and I just don't know what else to tell you. It feels like we are rehashing the pain of it over and over. I not it is not something that will be forgotten, but we need to come to a point where we try to move forward from the pain.

I had an affair, bipolar or not. I made every wrong choice possible, right up to the end. I did not make the choice to end it. I was confused about my feelings, even in the midst of the breakup. I am sorry, I am remorseful, but I do realize now where my happiness lies, what love really feels like and I am here fighting for myself and for us. I can not take back the last 20 years. It was not filled with 20 years of hating you or planning this affair or planning the lies. I do see a pretty messed up thought process that took place for years, and I am sorry you have always seemed to be at the painful end of that. But we made a family together, and that I am very proud of. I see now that I owe it to them to do the very best on myself and on working on our marriage.

Maybe it is too soon to ask for forgiveness, but I pray it is in your heart to give when the time comes. Patience is not my virtue, but I am not going to give up on myself, you, us , and our family.

You asked how I could go so quickly from one extreme of being confused about my feelings, to knowing with all certainty that this is what I want. I explained it to you like a life and death situation. I could choose having a life, or choose a life style that would surely bring an end to anything worth living for. When it is looked at like that, the decision was easy.

I know you are very confused and angry. I am here for you. I am being honest and I am sorry I did not make a point of understanding exactly what you expected of me.
Footballfan, I am trying me best.

Dutchie
Posted 7/18/2007 7:20 PM (GMT 0)

I did read Dutchies post while at work last night. I didn't respond as I had barely slept and I didn't want to overreact to anything. I have slept now and will respond with my opinions.

I did ask Dutchie if she would tell me if he tried to contact her. But a month ago we had this exact coversation about her seeing him. She described back then that she had seen him driving his vehicle and had waved to him. I am not trying to be controlling about this I am just trying to get her to be honest with me. Is that too much to ask?

I have been extremely frustrated along the way that Dutchie doesn't offer up any information without me prying and prodding for the truth. I do revisit details because I have to, I really don't like hearing this stuff over and over again but when I keep getting different answers it makes me keep digging for the truth. I have told her that I will not allow her to keep any of this garbage in her life, no matter how much it hurts me to hear it I'm not going to let a single seed of this to remain because it will just grow and take hold again.

As far as her wanting me to ask questions because she felt it was the right way to approach this. C'mon, Dutchie you have dipped and ducked every single thing I have asked in an attempt to hide this. Anything you have come to me with has been to direct me in a different direction so I wouldn't uncover the truth.

It is too soon to ask for forgiveness. You have done everything in your power to spin me around and misdirect me so the truth didn't come out. You say that you didn't want this to come out because you didn't want to face the pain. My opinion is that all of this was an attempt to keep this affair going. The only reason it has come to an end is because our councellor and me made you quit your job, even then you wanted to give 2 weeks notice to prolong this. Forgiveness is a long way off since all the lies and misdirection have me wondering if I am at the end of all of this or just the beginning.

You chose to work on your family. You said in the end the decision was an easy one. If it was so easy and you are so committed to this then why did you tell me that for about 3 weeks after quitting your job you would try to catch a glimpse of him whenever you passed his apartment?

Honesty is all I ask. All the lies have made me into the person I am. You need to be on the offensive and work at clearing everything up instead of constantly putting yourself on the defensive. Being on the defensive only encourages a poor me attitude.

Mogs & LFW - Your opinions as always are appreciated. Please feel free to comment on anything. What do you see as bp issues and what do you see as seperate issues?

Posted 7/19/2007 12:45 AM (GMT 0)
Okay...to both Footballfan and Dutchie I am going to say the same thing...While we can certainly offer support to you both to work this through, as we have been doing, you open up a VERY slippery slope to communicate these messages to each other in this open forum venue and then ask for "opinions".  In essence, and I am sure you don't intentionally mean it this way, you are inviting "us…the HW family" into the middle of your marriage during a crisis; "To take sides" in a way.  We can't do that.  This is your marriage, and we don't belong in the middle of it.   As a general overview to you both I would say, you are both angry, hurting, struggling to find answers, wanting to justify yourselves and your perspectives , trying to understand the "in's and out's of it all", and clearly trying to "do" this right...wanting to get past it... 1,2,3...POOF...because you both want to get to the other side of it all so badly.  I would encourage you both to do the following...read each others letters or responses AGAIN (without either offensive or defensive points of view) just try and view it from the OTHER persons perspective.  SEE if you can view it as the other person, in the other one’s shoes and address the things that resonate true for each of you. EX: Dutchie says: she is sorry for inflicting this additional pain on you...FBF - does that resonate true for you?  Not the whole letter...just that one point – if you were her…would you?  And FBF says: It takes prying and prodding to get at the truth, and even then he isn’t sure it is all of it...Dutchie does that resonate true for you if you were standing in FBF's shoes?  Not the whole letter...just that one point?   THEN, go point to point, standing in the others shoes and keep asking that question.  THEN, write a letter to each other talking about each point that DID resonate true about the other one’s points , and validate what those points are to EACH OTHER, and what looking at it from the others perspective has taught you, if anything.  Then after you both have read the letters do the following without talking yet about the letters...believe it or not, work to act pleasant to each other for a day.  Don’t discuss any of this, place it in an emotional container and set it aside and just for a day, act how you want it to be between you.     Then make an appointment with each other (ex: after the kids go to bed), to discuss these validating letters point by point, it if you can from an open, owning up to what the other said, calm and honest place.  No blame/shame stuff , just the facts of what you have both validated for each other point by point, and what it showed you.  (My husband and I did this once during a crisis moment and it REALLY helped because I got to see from his side how perhaps, meaning to or not, I did something that if I had been on the receiving end of - I probably wouldn't have liked any more than he did – which in turn lead me to a better way I could handle it in the future because I could now see what kind of care I needed to take that would have been better.  And he got to see from my perspective how (as an example)…it must feel to be the brunt of his "jokes" all the time, and how it could get hurtful and it turned out I “wasn’t” being too sensitive” once he saw it by placing himself in my shoes for a moment.  And it was by validating how each other felt, we got to see ourselves differently and why the other was feeling the way they were. It help teach us both how to move forward more positively and productively .) Does this make sense?    As we are not professionals, just well intentioned internet friends.  I do believe this is the only feedback I should give you both.  Your marriage and the process you are in is a very personal thing.  The intimacy details of it should be kept between you, your professional therapist who you are entrusting to guide you, AND your journals.  I just believe I don't belong in the middle.  I hope this helps and makes sense to you both.  I think your attempts to be so open are commendable, and it is because of that, I do believe in the end you can make it to the other side of this intact - together.  Let me know how it goes.   This is a really powerful exercise IF you can really do it without (offensive/defensive points of view).   Hugs to you both,   LFW    
Posted 7/19/2007 2:33 PM (GMT 0)

I don't want my postings to come across as I am right and she is wrong. I don't want anyone taking sides. I do constantly try to approach things seeing it from Dutchies perspective and ask her to do the same for me. I post some of the details in hopes that responses we get back will open doors to things we never thought of. I talk about Dutchies dishonesty not so people will think I am right or justified but simply so she may get some encouragement back and realize it isn't just me wanting her to be open it is other people that care about her that want it too.

We sat outside last night and talked about a lot of things. Kind of a game of me asking her a question and then she asking me one. I kept stressing 100% honesty. Although we discussed a lot it wasn't until this morning that the guilt of holding onto things got to her. I woke up this morning and looked over and she was sitting there with her eyes open (not normal, she loves her sleep), she told me she wanted to talk. She told me 2 details that although weren't huge they were still untruths that were eating at her. The one time that she had seen him and he didn't see her was true, but she had told me it was in a grocery store, she told me this morning that I was with her and we were in a pet store in a different town. She said she felt very panicky at the time but knew nothing would happen because he was just leaving the store. The other one was a story she had written in one of her e-mails. I had asked her last night about it and she said she had embellished the story but the basics were true. This morning she told me that it was completely untrue. This is the stuff I am trying to free her from. I am not digging for details for me, I am digging to free her of them.

When I ask what is seen as bp and what is seen that isn't I am not looking for a judgement. I simply am trying to learn. I try to learn how bp, lying, low self-asteem and everything else relates to each other. Is everything a syptom of bp? I don't know. Is bp one problem and everything else is seperate? I don't know. Perspective from others is very helpful in trying to understand and work through this. I ask the same questions to our councellor. The more feedback we get the more we can learn and understand. I know the feedback I get isn't coming from professionals. It is coming from people with a real world understanding because they are dealing with a lot of the same things. So a lot of the time it can be more valuable.

My last posting may have seem harsh. I asked Dutchie and she admitted that it hurt. We will be going over it and her last one a point at a time and discussing them openly and hopefully honestly.

Thanks for all the time and thoughts that have been devoted to our situation.

Posted 7/19/2007 4:11 PM (GMT 0)
Footballfan, when you go over your letters together, really try and validate each others perspectives on the point by point. Each talk about why what the other said is true. Make "the case" for the other. Converstaions tend to be more productive and less defensive if the other is already agreeing with what was said and now you are just discussing the why's, what's, and what-do-you-do-about-its, what we learn'ed...etc.

I understand the things you shared about why you both posted these things in a forum setting. But again, those are the intimate details and I can hear in both of you how HARD you are working and how badly and fast you want to get past this all - "to get it over with" and be able to move on. The problem is, while it is good to work hard at it, there comes a point in the process that you have to question are you working effectively? Sometimes more and more and more, does not get you farther and faster through it, it is just over kill and can wear you out. Some of the work should also be taking moments to be kind to each other and putting an emotional container on the feelings, setting them aside for a few hours, or even a day, so you both can just "be" with the feelings and then consciously be kind with each other on purpose so you can remember how it feels...spend some time with each other and your family without the "stuff" in the mix for a breather (it doesn't mean it is gone, it's just in its container for when YOU are ready to take it back out and continue working on it - relate this to a work problem at the office...some issues take a lot of time to work through and correct. So, you tackle them one issue at a time to resolution, then move on to the next item to transform it in time to full resolution. This is the same.) Then...bring your containers back and continue on the work. My point is, the time to get through this and heal will take what it takes for each of you. You need to work effectively, not persay quantity. Only the two of you will know where these lines are about that. And how you are doing.

As to things being a BP thing. I can share that my husband, although a very HONEST guy, is not always forthcoming with the exact details. Much is generalities, and at times that does drive me crazy because I am a very detail oriented person. However, I have learned to not press this issue because what I have learned is A) that can trigger a negative flip in his attitude and then nothing works, and B) the exact details a lot of times don't matter so I let it go. "He went to the store and picked up something and ran into so and so...they talked about this and that (he'd give one or two details here that he remembers)" or "It was 12:15, he was just walking out while they were walking in. THey said the first hello seeing him first, they talked for 5 1/2 minutes. I did not come up, they looked good, had put on a few pounds, said they were in a hurry, looked happy, they said...blah blah blah, he responded back...blah blah blah...(full accounting of who said what replaying the entire conversaion practically word for word." You see, I would be the one to give all the details, my husband would give the one sentence. And he wouldn't be lying or hiding anything. It is just not how his brain works. Is that a BP thing??? Don't know. Does my BP do that...yep. I know he has a hard time answering a direct question with a direct staight answer. Again, not because of hiding or lying, but because his brain is moving so fast, thinking about all kinds of things at once, he is already past that to some degree so to stop, go back and recount every detail of a situation...whatever, becomes very tedious for him. Plus, too much hammered at him at once overwhelms him, and sometimes my asking for more and more puts him over the top. Also, his recall about details in that way isn't great for things like that, he's a big picture guy but everything he says is honest and true. He doesn't lie. But...again, I like more details, so we have spent a lot of time negociating how to satisfy us both because otherwise it can feel like he is hiding something to me, and I hate that feeling. So, I have learned to let go of needing so many details when it doesn't really matter as long as I am getting and accurate over view. He has learned to build his recall and give more details than before to help fill out the picture better for me, even if it is not to the level I would and do sometines go. But we are married 15 years...and STILL working on it!

Hope that helps to know it happens here too...so is it a BP thing....?????

LFW
Posted 7/31/2007 4:25 PM (GMT 0)
I am just writing this looking for some enouragement. As I have told Mogs, Footballfan and I have been on holidays (a weekend away and a few day trips) but the time spent together has been wonderful. The days have mainly been filled with close times , talking, laughing, and I can not express enough how motivated that keeps me. However in this process Footballfan has his down days where the anger builds up and the feeling of hopelessness in him is so strong. I end up being so sad at these times. I can not take back the past, I can not take back the fact that I had an affair, but I have to live on the hope that is inside me that things can be strong between us again.

The old me would have run and cowered from this challenge ages ago. But the person I am today....I know what I want and I won't give up on it, I won't give up on the love that I have or the love Footballfan has for me. My goals for my relationship, my family and myself are so clear.

Footballfan on the otherhand does not see a way to get closer, a way to move past this. Seeing his pain is the most painful thing I have experienced in this life. He clings to the thought of not knowing who he is married to, and of course not having any belief that there could be trust again.

I know these are feelings I have likely expressed before....I am just in need of some encouragement for myself and Footballfan.

Thanks
Dutchie
Posted 7/31/2007 9:07 PM (GMT 0)

Hi Dutchie,

I keep telling you that I think you really need to focus on yourself.  I say that because if you get caught up (and you're not wrong in your feelings, and worries; really I understand) in Footballfan's issues, it's going to set you back from getting well and making the changes that you want for yourself.  It's also something that is very upsetting and stressful which can bring on major symptoms. 

But I know if I were in your situation, and I thought that I was going to lose my bf, I would barely be able to think of anything else.  I know how much you don't want to lose him. 

But... it is important for you to focus on yourself.  You really cannot do much for Footballfan b/c he has to work through this on his own.  You are doing what you need to do to get yourself well.  You are sincerely remorseful.  But in reference to what happened, that's all you can be, is sorry.  You can't take it back.  I believe however that it should count for something that you are making huge efforts.  I just think that it's going to take a lot more time for Footballfan to deal with this issue, that has been painful.  A lot of time.

I think it would be helpful if there could be something to help you cope during these times where you are overwhelmed with these stressful feelings about your relationship.  You are busy trying to get well, so that maybe helps sometimes.  But when these thoughts and feelings take over, I think it would help if you could try to get control, or distract from it maybe.  I'm not sure exactly what to suggest, maybe talk to your counsellor?  I know LFW has mentioned journalling before.  That would help get your feelings out and you might feel more focused after.  Do you have any girlfriends that you can get together with for a tea and talk things through, or just to be around for a few hours?  Do things with your girls?

Dutchie, please ask your counsellor what you should do with this...How to cope with your relationship issues.  I think if you can think of ways to cope through the overwheming moments, that might help.  I understand how stressful this must be for you.  You need to figure out a way to manage it a bit...You counsellor I hope can think of some things.  Maybe I can think of something more too...til then, keep in touch.

Posted 8/4/2007 10:05 AM (GMT 0)

Can bp change according to the situation that your in? I'll try to explain what I mean. With all the reading I have done on this site and others I see people being in total manic states and others in total depressed states and others in mixed states. In talking to Dutchie it almost seems like her symptoms change according to her surroundings. If I am down she gets really down, if I am up she gets really up. The same is true back when she was working. When she was at home she avoided talking, would sleep endlessly and a lot of the time would just plain avoid coming home if she could because I brought her back down to reality where she would have to face her problems. When she was at work she was outgoing, flirty and everyones friend which lead to the problems.

I talked to Dutchie yesterday about something I noticed. It seems when I am down (therefore she is down) she tends to work really hard on her bp and the other problems, she does a lot of reading, journalling, exercise and visits this site frequently. When I am up (therefore she is up) she tends to try to put everything behind her and not face things. She won't bring up any topics or discussions about bp, it's like she is avoiding it altogether. All she wants to do is spend time with me, hug me and hold me. Don't get me wrong, I do like that very much but it just seems like the avoidance is there and it bothers me that avoiding problems is what got us here in the first place.

Any suggestions on a book about bp to help with us getting a better understanding.

Good luck with school Mogs.

Posted 8/4/2007 12:57 PM (GMT 0)
Hi Footballfan,

Thank you for your well wishes for school.  Knowing you and Dutchie are thinking of me and are happy with me over this news, means a lot.

Bipolar symptoms are complex, very complex.  What you've described isn't something I notice a ton with me and my bf.  But sometimes, yes,  I will have mood swings or my mood will change depending on what mood my bf is in.  It's much easier for me to feel better when he's feeling good.  Yesterday was a great example.  I was not feeling well at all, depressed.  When he came home he was in good mood and we had a great night together.  He made me feel really good.  I think I may have even been in an almost normal state (it wasn't really a high or hmanic feeling).

One thing maybe to consider is maybe when you're up, it makes Dutchie feel better.  And when you're down, maybe it's a stressor for her (therefore a trigger for bp symptoms or depressive symptoms) b/c she's worried you're upset with her or that something else is wrong.  I'm really not thinking it's avoidance at all; because of course, we can't be working on bipolar all the time.  Sometimes, we live in the moments, trying to live a "normal" life.  Last night when me and my bf were both in a good mood, feeling good; I didn't want to think or talk about my bipolar.  The only way I would look at it any other way, is if she was in a manic state, with clear hmanic or manic sypmtoms.

Situations definitely affect my bipolar.  Today we're going to a BBQ at my Dad's and I'm excited.  I'm feeling a little high.  If Dad called to cancel today, I would probably be feeling pretty depressed after that.

A book I would suggest for any couple is Loving Someone with Bipolar Disorder-by Julie A. Fast & John D. Preston.  It is written for spouses/partners, but there is a lot for both of you to do in the book.  I think it would be a great book for you.  I think I may have suggested this book to Dutchie before? I can't remember.  Another one is something I'm reading now Why am I Still Depressed-by Jim Phelps.  That one goes through bipolar inside and out.

Hope this helps, take care of each other.

Posted 8/4/2007 5:11 PM (GMT 0)
Mogs, once again, thanks for the response, and thank you for the reccomendations for books to read. I am getting ahead of myself with reading. I've got a couple of books from the library..one on the power of hope and the other is about appeciating everyday life. I am also reading from a book my mother-in-law gave us whih is more of a relationship book. I want the knowledge, I want to understand all of this.

To everyone taking their time to read our postings:
In reference to Footballfan's question/comments, although I would like nothing more than to live a "normal" life and not have to think about this; I think becuase it is all so new to me and overwhelming at times, I think it is somewhat of an avoidance issue. I recognize that as one of my big downfalls in the past. "Stick with the easy...and hope the bad will go away"...if you avoid it long enough, it will.....Or so I thought. I think it is a mixture of feelings. I think enjoying the "normal" side of life and feeling a spark of some happiness is a very difficult thing to pass up.

There is honestly so much I just really don't understand...and its the simple things really. I am in a down state right now, which was triggered yes by the stress of facing Footballfan's frustration. But I know I have to do my best to work my way out of these states. It is difficult though when every minute is filled with shame and worry over losing him. My question is...Am I having an episode right now. When I am up, am I manic....what is the differnece between being, just in a good mood and being manic.

I feel like I can recognize things better now, I'm just not sure I really understand them. So much of what I have read deals with the more extreme sides of bp. I guess I am just not looking up the proper things. I'll keep trying to.

Thank you for your continued help and support
Dutchie
Posted 8/7/2007 11:25 PM (GMT 0)

Dutchie,

I have not forgotten about you or this last post.  It's been a rough few days for me.  But I wanted to make sure I got back to you.

If you think you're sometimes avoiding things, good for you for recognizing that, I know you will work on that. 

I really want to tell you how powerful it is that you said " But I know I have to do my best to work my way out of these states ".  Seriously, good for you.  If we don't try our best to help ourselves cope through these times, then we are allowing the illness to take control.

So to your question about knowing whether you're in an episode etc.  The biggest thing that helped me to learn how to tell was when I was in a bipolar support group.  We would start of each session with the therapists asking each one of us "where is your mood at today?".  I can't tell you how hard it was for all of us some days to really tell.  That is for many reasons...Mixed states, rapid cycling, can all cause confusion.  What you mentioned about mania and good moods...Mania is not a good mood.  Those are where the huge extremes come in.  Hypomania is closer to that "good mood" feeling and can be confusing, but is still extreme and that is how you can tell the difference.  My hmania is pretty clear to me now...the increased energy, racing thoughts and/or speech, my anxiety increases somehow, don't sleep as much, feeling great, on top of the world great about everything.  Much different than being in a good mood.  Look for the extremes, look for the symtpoms.  I suggest you ask your pdoc or therapist for a mood chart (or you can even search them online and print one off).  It will help you keep track of how you're feeling day to day.  And if you find that confusing put a post on and I'll help you figure out how to use them.

Anyway Dutchie--you are in my thoughts.  Hope you are well, hope this helps.  (((Hug)))

Posted 8/8/2007 10:13 PM (GMT 0)

Hi all,

Sorry for being out of touch, been extremely busy with kids, hubby and life’s challenges. 

I just thought I would share a bit about the mood stuff from a non BP perspective.  I know for me, as a non BP, when hubby is down and miserable, it does affect me to.  I may not go to extremes on these feelings, I may not become "depressed" by it, but I would hardly categorize myself as elated either.  Just more of a matter of fact, gentle down to know he is feeling that way.  But while it does affect me to not want to go “partying” or feeling “happy go lucky” etc…it does not seem to stop me from having a fun conversation from a friend if that happens, or laughing with the kids if the opportunity presents.  And I think that for a BP, the difference may be that it does interfere.  Would this be correct?  So perhaps that can give a bit of perspective.  When in partnership with someone, moods can and DO feed off each others to a point.  Therefore, there is nothing wrong with striving to enjoy the lighter, easier, more loving moments too.  It is what allows us to get through the rough moments when it is more appropriate to perhaps be hyper focused on "the issues" between you.  So Dutchie, Footballfan...here it is:

Dutchie, keep looking within for answers - but recognize that some of them may be simpler in the moment than you think and it doesn't need to be the “ugly avoidance monster rearing its head".  If you question yourself, be honest and learn to trust the answer that comes.  If it is the avoidance, stop yourself dead in your tracks and be pro-active to communicating.  Some of my best conversations with hubby have come when we are happy and relaxed together and he didn't put off chatting about issues.  And because of us being in a "good place when we spoke", it didn't bring us down out of it, it made us feel closer as a result.

Footballfan, there is nothing wrong with enjoying the good moments that come between you and Dutchie.  Not every moment needs analysis or discussion.  Living under a microscope can get tedious for anyone...even you.  So, based on what I read, keep up the good work, keep working to be honest with your feelings, but also relax a bit and enjoy the improvements you see in Dutchie AND yourself - and the moments that you can share of happiness together.  You need to open your mind to the possibility of letting the trust back in a little at a time - eventually it will build up and you will see the progress.  Think of it this way...yes, Dutchie hurt you to your core, but there is NEVER a guarantee in life that others won't too.  You need to recognize that if you don't find a way to open yourself up to Dutchie again and you "move on...", you will open yourself up to just a new set of problems, with a person you don't - know as well, love as much, have the history of two great kids with, or that you trust either.  So you might as well work to succeed here.  But...to be honest...while you can still be experiencing the pain of what happened and processing your way through that, your focus also really needs to be on working to forgive and moving forward...not proving you can't (or...I think in your case...you won't).  Is being "right" that important to you? Or do you really want your life back?  (sorry if that was too honest on my part, but after reading the path again, thought it should be said - maybe that is what your dad meant when he said what he did to you.  You can be right and loose, or grow and learn to forgive and have what you really want back - not the illusion, which is what it partly was before. ) 

The work is not over for either of you...separately or together, and won't be for some time to come...if ever.  After all, life itself is ALWAYS a work in progress, with or without BP, right?  And even with a perfect marriage, if it goes unattended it can hit the rocks.  Marriage is work!!!!!!!!!!  That is what it is.  And none of them are problem free...none of them…ever. 

Aren’t you glad I’m back   Hugs to you both, LFW

Posted 8/9/2007 1:30 AM (GMT 0)
LFW

I am so glad you are back. Your posting brought tears to my eyes, although I've been doing alot of that lately. You and Mogs are so appreciated. Anyone who has responded is appreciated, but you and Mogs have really stood by us. Thank you for that.
Sorry this is short, but I am not up to writing a whole lot right now.

Thank you again.
Dutchie
Posted 8/9/2007 8:38 PM (GMT 0)
LFW

Your posting came at just the right time. I am at a very low point right now, as Footballfan seriously contemplates leaving. I pray he takes your words to heart. He stuggles with feelings of being trapped or that his hands are tied as far as dealing, or not dealing with the other man. He looks for closure that I don't know how to give. I want him to remember that he has me and two girls who nee him, we don't want him hurt or in jail. I fear his anger may consume him. I want more than anything to help him heal, as well as me. For the first time I understand love and what it truly involves. He has difficulty in seeing his feelings change. I truly believe love can do some pretty amazing things. I have done EVERYTHING wrong, I see it and for the first time I understand it. And with that I try to explain that I can take control of the bp ( now that I understand things , and am thinking more clearly) and make good decisions in my life.

I thank you so much for your words of encouragement and support.
I also ask for your continued advice as we struggle. I have discovered a person and a marriage that I can't/won't give up on. I believe in this love I have discovered and the man that was standing right in front of me all along. He is the strongest person I know, I love him and don't want to lose him.
As a wife I want to now protect my husband and my girls from ever being harmed again. As a wife and mom, that is what I am hear to do, and for the first time I want to embrace that.

Thank you
Dutchie
Posted 8/10/2007 2:37 AM (GMT 0)
Welcome back LFW. Your honesty and straight forward words are appreciated as always.

You bring up very good points. I have listened to Dr. Phil with his "do you want to be right or do you want to be happy". I do want to be happy but as I explained to Dutchie months ago. I explained that the affair wasn't what would break us up, it was the couple of months that I was working on our relationship and I thought she was too. There were a lot of good moments during that time. Times when she told me she would never hurt me again, times when she said she was falling in love with me again, times when she said if she realized the person I am that none of this would have happened. Very good moments that began to earn my trust back. The problem was that she was still seeing the other guy and none of the things she said were true, just a way to divert my attention away from the truth. I hear a lot of the same things now. She admits that in the past it was a smoke screen but she is thinking clearly now and she really means it. Tell me. Would you believe it?

You are correct as far as the can't/won't forgive. I do feel that I can't because I have been run over by the truck enough, and I do feel that I won't because Dutchie is the one person that I have opened up to and look what it got me. Our marriage has not been what I thought it was. She admits that she never truelly committed to it 100%. She always kept something back for herself, always kept a slight distance from me because she says she felt she couldn't trust anyone. The problem now is that she feels 100% committed to it and I now feel the way she once did. I don't now the answers. All I know is that I am here. Some days are good and some are bad, but it feels like the bad ones are getting worse and the good ones more brief.

The postings that Mogs writes when she is down are very similar to how I see Dutchie feeling. It does open my eyes a lot to see the similarities. I try to be the person that can give her comfort, but sometimes it is so difficult, especially when it usually is my words that cause it. I do feel like leaving a lot of the time. Not just for me, I'm just tired of talking about things and seeing her cry. I have never wanted to be the one to make her cry.

Still working.
Posted 8/10/2007 9:00 PM (GMT 0)
Footballfan,   NOBODY likes feeling kicked in the gut, especially from someone they love.   And I don’t think Dutchie expects you to “trust” her so easily again.   She knows, by what she has shared,   that she finally gets after the lies and damage she caused, it is her job to earn that back.   I hear her sincerity in her desire to do so.   But will she suddenly be perfect…of course not.   But do you see a sincere effort on her part?   Why aren’t you spending more focus on that?   Yes, she lied to you for the two months…saying the right things, without the meaning behind it…BUT…do you think she means it now?     So, there is your quandary…what do you do with the angry feeling of betrayal, the hurt feelings they caused, the feelings of doubt that exist for you, and your lack of trust in Dutchie – her words and actions, and in yourself for your desire not to find a way to begin forgiveness?   In a nutshell…my suggestion…STOP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!   Stand still long enough to breath.   Then…STOP trying to solve it all over night, STOP giving all the power to your “feelings” , STOP over-analyzing every breath you both make, STOP (and this is an assumption on my part) viewing and treating Dutchie as though she is a witness on the stand you are trying to break down and admit additional information or secrets, STOP resisting loving your wife even though she hurt you with betrayal and lies….Just STOP!        Footballfan, choose in or out, don’t sit you behind on the middle of the fence and do the “here today/gone tomorrow” attitude.   Opt in or out .   PERIOD.   If it is in…THEN BE IN.   Stop expecting it to FEEL better.   It may not right now.   It may feel terrible for a while.   But, step by step, if you set the goal to work beyond it together…you eventually will.   If you breed negative focus dominantly, you will get negative focus dominantly.   How much positive are YOU putting in?   Start with those questions for yourself.   I am not advocating hiding how you feel, or denying it.   But there are ways to communicate ANYTHING with personal responsibility, with acknowledgement to the truth without using someone’s mistakes against them and still being true to “how you feel”.   Are YOU doing that?   If not…do the work and learn how.   You have to remember YOUR responsibility in all this too.   Yes, Dutchie did a horrible thing.   She lied, cheated, betrayed on many fronts.   But my dear…let’s be honest, it does take two to tango, and in any marriage, at any given time has one person being more true, more dedicated, more “honest” than the other – and that changes back and forth throughout the marriage.   You are together 20 years…how about YOU?   Focus on that.   Make YOUR shifts to improve your marriage the way you are asking Dutchie to do.   Take your responsibility in your own feelings, and how they are contributing to repairing the damage you have BOTH made to each other.     Footballfan, do you work out?   Are you physically fit?   Maybe if not, it would be a good time to burn off some of the negative feelings in a positive way?   Maybe give each other a limit of up to 10 minutes a day to share what the negative feelings are, without any input from the other.   Just each sit back and “hear” what the other feels.   Then follow that up with an equal amount of time for positive input that you acknowledge about yourself and them that day.   Again…no discussion about it.   Just HEAR each other and repeat back what you have heard, ask the other if you got it right so you each know you have heard each other, and then just let it go for the day and GET ON WITH LIFE together.   Your kids need that.   Your family needs that.   YOU need that.   Then, in therapy, have the discussion about it all after you have each had a chance to reflect on it.   Between therapy sessions, just contain it; reflecting on yourself, your spouse, and how to bring positive into the marriage right now, not more negative.   Make sense?   Hope that helps a bit.   LFW
Posted 8/10/2007 9:25 PM (GMT 0)

Dutchie, here is my input to you.  I am glad to hear you are finally getting “it” about your priorities.  Good for you to finally be getting them right.   Just keep focusing on them, working on you, and loving and giving space to Footballfan as he needs it.  Don’t become obsessed in the mistakes and mess you made in the past.  Focus on making your future strong with your priorities right, your mental health strong, and your relationship honest-loving-and true.  That is how you make up for the mistakes, by making it right now; by doing it right now and accepting the pain you caused – so give the person you harmed time to heal.  If THEY tell you they need to hear “I’m sorry” over and over, then say it for as long as they need to hear it.  If they tell you they don’t believe you, continue to say the truth anyway.  Plus, don’t put so much power into every feeling or thought Footballfan is having.  His feelings are ebbing and tiding a lot.  So just keep soul searching for answers to heal.  Don’t ignore the work to be done on you, on your relationship, on your family.  Just with a gentle grace… do the right things.  If FBF say’s he feels like leaving, respond with “I am sorry you are hurting so much, I know I caused it and I am so sorry, I do sincerely love you and hope you continue to choose to stay and heal with me.”  Then, let it go.  Don’t obsess on it and have a huge discussion unless “he” needs to.   Simplify for a while.

 

While my hubby and I are not overly religious people, I do strongly believe in prayer.  Have you tried to pray together to find a way for both your souls to heal and find your way back to each other?  Have you gone for support and guidance from a spiritual leader?  Just a few thoughts there…  When was the last time you demanded of yourself to have a good time and laugh together as a family?  Forget your problems for a night, play pictionary or monopoly with the girls as a family!  Give each other foot rubs, take a bath together, read a joke book out loud to each other, each pick a night a cook the others favorite meal…whatever.  Just bring in smiles to your house whenever possible. 

 

Good luck, LFW

Posted 8/10/2007 9:29 PM (GMT 0)

First I'd like to thank Footballfan and Dutchie for posting their experience.  I'm sure the intent was to seek clarity/understanding but by discussing your experiences in parallel you are helping a lot of other couples out there in the same situation.  And of course the responses from Mogi, LFW (and whoever else posted here) are also very valuable.

Footballfan, I wear your shoes and they are not at all comfortable.  They are too darn tight, have rocks in them and are wet to boot.  You are dealing with two major issues, a wife recently diagnosed as bipolar and your wife having an affair.  Did one cause the other? From what I have learned, yes.  Can you deal with both at the same time? From my experience, hell no.  The rules for dealing with each problem are so vastly different for both of you.   You want/need answers.  She is truly horrified by her actions but the depression of the bp causes her to shutdown with the simplest of questions.  At this point all she can do is feel the guilt and shame, unable to use those emotions at this point to make alot of positive changes (although she is trying).  You demand and she'll either stare at the floor with tears in her eyes, a thousand things in her head but no words to respond or she'll give you a response but it doesn't really provide what the answer you need.  You are heart broken and need honesty with reassurance constantly.  She is just broken, unable to fill your needs, but needing your love and understanding more than ever as she works to manage the bp so life can move forward.   When you have a melt down because you have encountered a trigger, you need your wife to be patient and listen to you, empathize with you and work hard everyday to make things work.  Because of the bp she is depressed and is unavailable.  Frustration and anger now builds on top of frustration and anger.   Ok, I think you get my point. 

The timeline for dealing with the aftermath of an affair is a very long one (in general).  You'll have lots of ups and downs but it seems like things get worse before they get better.  6 months to a year out can be big trigger times.  I think when one of the spouses is bp. the timeline only grows in length as its almost impossible for them to help the one they offended until they have helped themselves.   Trust will be nearly impossible for you anytime soon.  It’s not just the affair but the months/years of lying.  When Dutchie is feeling better and working hard at everything, the time will come when she will get angry that you don't trust her after all the hard work she has put in.  Dutchie, he may begin to trust you again but he won't trust the bp.  That’s not necessarily a bad thing because it'll probably prevent some big ugly slip ups if the right checks and balances are in place.   Footballfan, its a really tough situation but with the help of some really good counselors, you'll have guidance on what’s too much or too little in terms of trust. 

I'm pretty much where you are but the number of negative events in my case are greater/over a longer period of time.  Unfortunately it took a long time to recognize my spouse had a problem and get it diagnosed.  And of course it has been a struggle for my spouse to accept the diagnosis, stay on the medication and of course deal with the things that happened.   Right now, we are living apart for a few weeks.  I had a major meltdown just as he was doing a belly flop in the depression pool and it chased him away.  Its gonna happen and all you can do is regroup and move forward. 

I really hate the shoes I wear right now.  I know I can pull the rocks out and they'll dry in short order but it'll take awhile for them to stretch.  I can take them off anytime I want but since I can't see what lies in the road ahead, I'd just as soon leave them on for now.

Post Edited (pinkelephant) : 8/10/2007 3:32:04 PM (GMT-6)

Posted 8/11/2007 2:09 AM (GMT 0)
LFW - You seem to be under the impression that I am constantly grilling Dutchie about our situation. It is far from that. I post my feelings and thoughts about the negative things because the good things can take care of themself. A lot of the time we discuss things very openly and honestly and keep a cool head. A lot of the time when I am feeling down Dutchie asks me repeatedly to talk things out with her, when I do it can come out very harshly. She tells me that even though it makes her cry she still wants to hear it because she needs to hear it and I need to get it out. Our situation isn't me saying one day I want to leave and the next I want to stay...back and forth constantly. Sometimes my feelings are stronger than others but I have made it clear that the feeling is always there. I am very honest with her, sometimes too honest. Today I worked all day, Dutchie took the girls to a small waterpark. I called her twice throughout the day just to say hi and ask how her day was going. When I came home we sat out front and talked about my day at work and the fun she had with the girls. We just came home after going to the store and then going and getting a tea and going for a walk with our eldest girl. We do have good times together when our situation is in the back of both of our minds.

Pinkelephant - It is nice to hear a new voice in our situation. Your thoughts and situation seem to mirror mine quite a bit. I read your posting and a lot of it is as if I wrote it. I am in the situation where things feel worse. I think it has a lot to do with me putting my feelings and thoughts on hold (in the beginning) to just try and make sure Dutchie was safe and out of a situation that I knew would destroy her life. She has realized all of this and now my feelings and thoughts have come to the forefront. I do not trust the bp. I talked to her about that the other day. It is just such an unknown. I give Dutchie a lot of credit for taking on the bp headon. Once she was diagnosed she wanted to find everything out about it, she takes her meds - no problem, she freely admits she has bp but she is not going to let it ruin her. She is a lot stronger than she ever gave herself credit for.

Keep posting. A lot of great advice and great people are here. Who knows, I may even be able to help you out with your situation.

Thanks
Posted 8/11/2007 3:33 AM (GMT 0)
Footballfan, what a pleasure to hear some of the sweet and nice stuff that exists between you and Dutchie. As I am not with you, nor do I know you personally, I can only go by what you share here on the board. Adding in what you did this time allows for there to be a balance of information. Frankly, it sounds like you and Dutchie have a lot to fight for between you. That is wonderful. I know you have shared how much you loved her, but you have also shared that you want to make her well and leave. I say again, if the ideal for you would be to make it past this and still be together, with trust rebuilt, love flowing...then during the process of healing "even" if you "feel" a certain way, you don't have to give it more power over the situation beyond just acknowledging it.

With my hubby, believe me; while there has not been infidelity, we have definitely had out issues. I have fantasized about leaving a number of times. But when I married, I married for the long haul. So, once I said "I do" I made the commitment that this was my life partner and the only things that would null and void that were things like "physical abuse”. Other than that level of unsolvable problem (which I would NEVER stand for)...this was it. If problems came up, then we deal with it; EVEN if I go through periods of time where I can't stand him because he is driving me crazy. And believe me...with BP, life is definitely ALWAYS a work in progress. But, I will tell you something a very wise woman said to me just before we married (I was 31 at the time), she had been married for 51 years to the same person, and we said...how have you done it. This was her response...

"You can’t assess a marriage as good or bad until your lifetime with that person is over. Then you can look back and assess, how many of the years were happy/good, how many you were unhappy/bad. She said you add up all the 5-10 minutes here, the 2 days there...etc. for good or bad. IF after, we'll say 50 years, you can say that 35 years together or more were happy years, you had an excellent marriage. If it is 25/25 you had an okay marriage. NOW...if you look at those 35 years...that means after adding up all the unhappy moments together (the fights, spats, hurtful words or actions) it equals 15 years....you have to figure that there is no guarantee that some of those moments won't be elongated to equal 2 or 5 years in one stretch that you look over at the person and may feel "I don't want to be here", BUT, if you hang in there because of the commitment you made to each other, than it will all come around and you will find yourself happy together again if you strive for it, and do the work. Marriage is about forgiveness, acceptance, and being willing to not always be "happy" together. It is rough times that two people can put each other through. But...if you string ALL those moments good and bad together, if you were truly happy together for 35+ years of it...YOU ARE ONE OF THE LUCKY ONES. But it takes work. It takes a willingness to endure and hang on to nothing more sometimes than the dream and remembrance of the love you shared. Anything less, is not a marriage, it is a trial run!"

I have never forgotten that advice and I remember it every time I feel like I will never look at him again and want to be here. But you know what…she has always been right. The happiness and love always comes back around. And when it does, we appreciate it more because of what it took to get it back. But you will NEVER hear me say it is EASY!!!!!!!!!!!! But it is worth it.

Thank you for sharing the good too. What a pleasure to hear. LFW
Posted 8/12/2007 2:56 PM (GMT 0)
LFW - I didn't address in my last posting the issue you brought up about my resposibility in all of this. I do recognize my part in all of this. I told Dutchie a few months ago that I recognize now problems that I have brought into our marriage. The lack of communication was key to our problems (besides bp). Dutchie always felt that she didn't want to appear as the "nagging" wife, therefore she never voiced her opinion, never confrontational, always agreeing with me even if her opinion differed. Eventually she lost her ability to form an opinion. Of course when you always get your own way and are never made to compromise for your mate you get used to it, you begin to think that their feelings and wants don't matter because you have never heard them. I told Dutchie that I do want her to be herself, if she doesn't agree on things she must voice her opinion regardless if she thinks it will cause waves. I have told her that even though this is what she needs to do it is not going to be easy. I am used to the way she has been for the past 20 years so when she voices her opinion it is not always going to be taken gracefully since it is something new for me and I need time to adjust to it. I have told her that she needs to be strong through this because it is going to cause fights and disagreements (as I have said, we never fight).

We saw the councellor yesterday. I was very open and honest about the feelings of wanting to leave. She asked me if I thought it would improve my life and brought up all the problems it will cause. I explained that in no way do I think my life would be better. The driving force behind it is that when I am at work I worry about Dutchie, I worry about the decisions she has made, I worry that if she desires to continue to make those decisions she has the time to do it while I am working. If we were just friends then the worrying wouldn't be there because it wouldn't be my problem anymore. I know that probably doesn't make sense, but I have a lot of things right now that don't make sense.

We had a good day yesterday. We saw the councellor and then went to a market. When we got home a friend of ours called and invited us over. We hadn't seen this couple in quite a few months and there were lingering issues that needed to be dealt with. During the time when Dutchie was e-mailing the guy at school she had told her friend about it (she doesn't know about the bp our the affair), she explained that it was nothing huge, just a friendship. She would also voice her complaints about our relationship to her friend. Dutchie and I had talked about this months ago and she wanted to clear the air but had not done so. I was surpised when I asked Dutchie if she was going to clear things up and she didn't hesitate to say yes, I told her this morning that I honestly thought she was going to make some excuse to not have to face it. She explained to her friend that her thinking was messed up and that she wished that someone could have helped her to realize she was headed down the wrong path. Her friend apologized and said that she should have helped but couldn't because of her own situation (they are going through a lot of problems as well). Dutchie said it felt good to clear the air, she felt confident and is trying to help her friend by encouraging her to see our councellor about their problems. I told Dutchie that I was very proud of her for facing things and being a good friend.

Another small breakthrough this morning. Dutchie got up this morning because she wanted to go to church with my parents (I'm not quite ready), she woke up the girls but the eldest said she didn't want to go because she was tired. Dutchie came in and told me that she wasn't going to force her to go. I told her to just talk to her about how much it would mean to her if she went. Dutchie then went and got us some coffee uptown. When she returned I was downstairs and asked where our oldest daughter was, Dutchie said she was downstairs when she left. Dutchie went upstairs and saw that our daughter was getting ready for church. I talked to Dutchie about the effect she has on our girls, and we discussed what a change our oldest has made since their relationship has been worked on. Dutchie is seeing how important she is in our daughters life and how much they want and need a great relationship with her. Dutchie and the youngest were outside when our oldest girl came down. I told her how proud I was of her and that Dutchie had a big smile on her face when she realized she was going with her. This brought a huge smile to her face. She said she was tired but didn't want to disappoint mom. She never really cared about that before.
Posted 8/13/2007 4:17 AM (GMT 0)

Footballfan, thank you for sharing all that lovely stuff; you and Dutchie really sound like you have a lot to be grateful for.  Clearly you are both doing the work needed to correct the past mistakes and move forward in a much more positive way in your family.  I am sure when you are ready, you will join them at church and feel one step closer to feeling healed by doing so.  We are Jewish, and my hubby doesn't like to go to temple, but when our oldest was preparing for Bar Mitzvah last year, he occasionally pushed himself to join us.  When he did, he found he felt more bonded as a family unit and in some ways, closer to me as a result.  Touching God together seems to do that and gives you another place to lean on for strength when you need it.  At least it did for us.

The stuff you shared about your responsibility, I totally got.  I can only share that some of that stuff of wanting your own way isn't just that Dutchie didn't voice her opinions - first and foremost - is also is a male thing.  Hubby has a real issue with it and sometimes the arguments are just not worth it.  So I let it go.  But when he stops himself from getting mad and acknowledges that I have a right to feel different and then we work together on a solution, or idea, that suits both of us...It just makes my love grow towards him.  They are the moments I feel important to him, the moments I feel in a real equal partnership with him and I LOVE IT!  I wish it was like that more often frankly.  It is hard, because with his BP, he is quick to shift moods on me and so much of the time it feels like "hurry up and wait" to deal with things for when he is in a good "place" to approach.  He is a rapid recycler so it is hard, you can start off a conversation with him in a good place, then something triggers him and it shifts negative fast and then things are off and running unless you end the conversation with him pissed at you for usually no good reason.  But when he owns it (the BP and how he has suddenly shifted and doesn't dump on me for it)...it is WONDERFUL! 

I am so pleased Dutchie sees your kids in a whole new light.  They are everything, and so desperately need us.  We are their guides to grow up and their source of love and that sense of feeling safe.  How beautiful that the changes Dutchie is going through is having such a profound change in the kids, and her friendships!  It is through seeing this new behavior of hers that step by step (baby steps BTW) that a trust can re-grow between you about her ability and commitment to make healthy decisions that affect all your lives.  Then maybe the anxiety or worrying you do at work will slowly subside over time and you won't want to leave.  But it takes linking each one of those witnessed moments together one at a time to build up to relaxing and trusting again.  I continue to pray you will not give up and will slowly get there.  LFW

Posted 8/15/2007 11:28 PM (GMT 0)
Dutchie left about a half hour ago to go to a support group. It is the first time she has attended and she is very nervous. For the first time in a long time I feel nervous for her. The group is more general, it is for mood disorders including depression/bp/anxiety. I sent her a text message, it read "Walk in with confidence, walk out with knowledge. Be as strong as I know you are. Trust in your true instincts. I believe in you." She just called to thank me. She sounded nervous. I told her that the person running the group seemed very supportive and easy going (she is bp), and that in 25 minutes she would find her comfort zone because the initial newness of the group would be over. She will be fine. It is just new to her to walk in as herself and not someone that she thinks people expect to see.

I called Dutchie last night when I was at work. During the conversation I asked her if she was keeping up with her journelling. She told me she was going to do it after we got off the phone. I asked her if she had done it the day before. She replied "yes", I asked her if she did it the day before that, she responded that she had missed a few days and had lumped the days together in her journal. When I came home I asked her to show me her journal. It had been done the night before as she said but had not been done for several days before that. I asked her why she had told me that she had done it when she hadn't. She responded that she had filled out her mood chart and that is what she considered journalling. I didn't like to do it but I called her on what I considered a lie. I told her that she told me that she had done it 2 days earlier and had lumped the days together, so how did she consider doing her mood chart as journalling. I explained to her my feelings on this. Even though this is small and insignificant I told her that she told me something to avoid me getting angry with her or the feelings of being in trouble. I explained to her that I saw this as her taking a submissive role. She was not acting as my equal but was putting me in the dominant role. I explained that I will not live my life with the feeling that I need to check every single thing she does. I told her that I didn't sign up for a parent/child relationship. She was very angry with herself. I hope she is learning from situations like this and not just feeling bad about them.
Posted 8/16/2007 11:38 PM (GMT 0)
Footballfan, I see your point in the issue you expressed that by not sharing the answers in fully accurate detail, you felt it was done to avoid a confrontation with you. And therefore, she "in that moment" was not acting as your equal and placing you in the dominant role. And I agree with your perspective you are not interested in a parent/child relationship with your spouse. I don't want that kind of relationship with my spouse either. But in truth, we all tell each other those kind of overviews, or omissions now and again...I did it the other day as a matter of fact...Hubby said, "Honey did you take the dry cleaning in this morning like I asked? ...my response..."Yes"....in truth I took in the late afternoon. Did I lie? I didn't need to tell him it was not in the morning, what mattered most was that I did get it there, and if I had said that it didn't get there until afternoon it would have set him off since he specifically asked me to do it in the morning. He wouldn’t have thought it through quickly to realize the timing didn’t matter, he would have reacted first. But, the real issue was “did I take the dry cleaning in”…and I had.

Now, the examples were different, but it is in truth something we all do on occasion…even you I would guess. So, while it is a great thing to look at this as an “issue”, I would caution you that if you don’t want to “accept” the parent role, don’t place yourself in it either. I mean, I know you are building trust right now, and I am sure that is what prompted you to ask to see her journal to see if her words and actions matched…and again…I do understand the need to check in for “proof” and the more you experience the “matches”, the higher the trust meter can build for a while, but….it is also a VERY parental thing to do – as if talking to your child making sure they “did their homework and not taking their word for it” type of thing. (Just a side note about me, I have always viewed journals as a private thing between the writer and their private thoughts of venting [that may just be angry venting and not full reality], or free expression in the moment, and a safe place to tell the truth to oneself, etc…and I don’t know that I would ever ask to see someone else’s journal given that. I would feel as though I was invading their privacy unless they offered it, or asked me to look).

I am sure that you were only asking to be supportive of Dutchie, and that intention sounds very loving. But, from what you said, and I know you acknowledged it as a “little” issue, she also had told you pretty much the truth. She HAD written in her journal the day before, she missed a few days before that and then combined them when she wrote again. The difference between 1-2 days, or 2-4 days…does that really matter at that level? She was keeping up with her mood chart…no? If you get this caught up in the minutia at this level of detail, it can get REALLY overwhelming, because you can question ANY intention can’t you? Again, I share; this is a slippery slope because if you want to be equal with her, you also can’t play scolding parent. Just something maybe to think about (and no…you didn’t sound scolding…but parent/child…yes).

I know with my hubby, and maybe it is true with all intimate partnerships…I don’t know, but I feel like we have all different dynamics between us. Obviously, the basis IS mature equality, but there is also on occasion parent/child, brother/sister, best friend/strangers, order giver/order taker, doctor-therapist-advisor/patient…and we switch back and forth on all of these too – each having time and space in each role with each other. It is also in the evenness of the flow of the ebbing and tiding which I think is part of the equality. I suppose the problem is when it is strongly uneven. I have always called it the relationship “dance”. You learn over time where each others strengths are, and you divide up and defer to who leads or handles the responsibilities for each issue…i.e. scraped knees…mom, car maintenance…dad, social schedule…dad, summer schedule for kids…mom, bills…both, vacation planning…both, exterior family problems…mom, homework stresses…dad, etc….you get the point. And THAT gets very finite. Maybe part of the quandary for you and Dutchie is that the two of you are now “redoing” the dance, and rearranging things??? While I would think that is very scary on the one hand, I also think it is VERY exciting on the other too. What an opportunity to refurbish your relationship after 20 years, plus rediscover each other and fall in love all over again in time. What do you think?

Just some thoughts for you…hope the feedback is good food for thought. LFW
✚ New Topic locked
123