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Advice about dealing with an addict (sorry this is so long)

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Posted 10/30/2013 11:24 PM (GMT 0)
I'm sure you guys already know what (and who) this is about.  Today I got into a huge argument with my uncle.  I've told you guys how he is when it's patch day. He goes running around like a chicken with his head cut off and he talks incessantly.  Even when he says he'll quit talking because he knows I'm doing homework, he still goes on and on and on.  He and I get into quite a few arguments because I don't tiptoe around him just because he's high (and on the ziggityboom, I might add) and he tries to talk over me and bully me into giving him his way and I'm very strong minded so it doesn't work, he gets frustrated and then stops speaking to me.  Then later on, he'll ask to speak to me in private and he'll want to have this big emotional apology and I'm over it by that time. 

Well it happened again today.  about something really insignificant.  And two hours later he asked to speak to me to apologize and I told him not to worry about it and not to bother.  For one thing, he's still high during these apologies so it's more of him talking and talking and talking... and I'm sick of it.  And for another thing, it's not really an apology if you're just going to do the same thing the day after tomorrow. During the apology he starts to talk over me again so I said "This is the problem Uncle Ed.  You just talk and talk and don't listen when you're on those patches."  And he shouts at me "Now here you go with that! She told you to say it!".  To which I replied (sarcastically) "Yes, it's us. We're all plotting against you.  Us, the people don't abuse any pain medicine are ganging up on you!". He asked me to leave and my aunt stepped into the house and told him I didn't have to go anywhere.  I went and sat on the porch to get away from him and she came out to talk to me and informed me that he doesn't think he acts any differently when he's on the patches.  He thinks he's normal and that she just complains because she doesn't like him using the patches. 

Even this morning he tried to tell me that he only chews the patches because that's the only way he gets any real relief from the medication.  I told him that the goal of pain management isn't to get him completely out of pain but to make it manageable. I also told him that I understand the amount of pain he's in and I don't doubt that but abusing his medication is not the way to deal with it.  I asked my aunt again why she doesn't say anything and she said she's afraid he will die if they cut him off his meds cold turkey and Medicaid won't authorize an in-patient treatment center.  I told her he might die abusing the meds and she'd feel really bad then.  She said on days like this she wouldn't care if he did die (she's just upset, I know she doesn't mean that) and I said "well it's still not fair to the doctor who is treating him.  If he overdoses it goes on a report under her DEA number".  She didn't say anything to that.

How can I make him understand that he is the problem.  I've watched 'Intervention' for years and the two people who didn't admit they have a problem but tried to go into treatment to appease their families... died.  Of course both of those were alcohol but my point is they didn't admit they had a problem and thus were unsuccessful at treatment.  How can I make him rationalize that he only has to do these empty apologies on patch day so if it were us ganging up against him... why is he always the common denominator and it's only on these particular days? 

We just got back on speaking terms with them and my kids love them to pieces but I won't let my children be witnesses to this type of unhealthy behavior.  They are our only family in Michigan and my aunt is honestly one of my closet family members. She's stuck by us without judgment through some pretty rough situations but I refuse to feel guilty about separating us from them because of this issue. I'm not judging them (at least I don't think I am) but I cannot handle my uncle on these days. We argue almost every single time I'm around him when he's high.  Once I was going with my aunt to the doctor and he wanted me to leave my car keys.  I do not trust him with driving my car high and that vehicle is the only one I have.  He was watching Grandpa who's very old and sick and wanted the car keys in case of an emergency so I told him I'd hide the keys in the house and if an emergency arose, he could call me and if it were serious enough I'd tell him the location of my keys.  This started an argument, of course and I told him that one time he took my car and was gone for 45 minutes so I don't trust him with my car.  Since he didn't want to hear that he started talking over me... I continued to talk... he told me to quit talking. I said "Fine but that attitude doesn't get my car keys. If there's an emergency call an ambulance". And I took my keys with me.  Of course when we returned he wanted to do the whole apology but I'm seriously over it. 

I'm sorry for writing so much but I don't know what to do.  Do I cut us off from the only family we have because he is sick?  Do I only come over when it's not patch day so I don't stress myself out?  My aunt needs to have surgery on her neck and I offered to come help out with grandpa and my cousin (her granddaughter) since she knows my uncle is about as helpful as a platypus (I couldn't think of any other comparison).  Have any of you dealt with an addict that got help?  I would love some tips... or should I make a bottom line of leaving if she doesn't tell and then just stop going over there and hope for the best. I sincerely wish I could find the phone number of his doctor.  He'd do some kind of treatment just out of sheer terror of losing his precious patches.  She has tried to block his ways of eating them by putting duct tape on the back of all of them and keeping them locked and she kept the key around her neck but the moment she wasn't around, they are cut into strips and in his mouth.  I really appreciate how you guys listened to me last time and you were honest with me but didn't make me feel like we are the only ones going through this. 

What would you do? Or what have you done in similar situations?  Maybe I can sneak and pick up his other prescriptions (not the pain meds) and get the name and phone number off the bottle?  I wish I could appeal to her to tell on him. I honestly don't think we'll ever convince him to go voluntarily. 

Thanks you guys,
Linds

Posted 10/30/2013 11:39 PM (GMT 0)
Refresh my memory. What patches is he taking? What are they for?

david
Posted 10/30/2013 11:45 PM (GMT 0)
He's on Fentanyl. He gets two patches... One that's 100mcg and the other is 50mcg and he's supposed to change them every 48 hours. Instead he wears the 100 patch as directed and every other day he puts the 50 patch in little strips between his gums and cheeks to suck the medication out.

He was in a bad motorcycle accident that shredded his leg and destroyed his back. His leg is mostly made of metal inside it and was in one of.those braces with the screws for two years. The kind that have been used in movies to imobilize a neck injury (not sure how else to describe it). He's in more pain than most people can imagine and I recognize that but I'm trying to explain to him that's not a good excuse to abuse his medication.

Prior to the accident he was a heavy alcoholic and just traded one addiction for the other. He never received treatment for his alcoholism either.
Posted 10/31/2013 12:13 AM (GMT 0)
Your right Linds you cant force him to get help but you can leave him in a position that he wont have a choice.

My son is a recovering IV drug user. There were nights I lay awake terrified for him. Days I would give him the last dime I had and years I paid his rent, bought his food because he traded his food stamps for drugs, even paid his child support so he wouldn't go to jail.

On and on it went! In and out of court and jail, stealing, robbing, whatever it took and I was afraid if I didn't keep helping him he would die or get killed.

He stole from me and his sisters to support his habit. It was my worst nightmare. Finally his sisters stopped having anything to do with him and begged me to stop supporting him.

He overdosed in jail and was in ICU and I knew that he was killing himself and taking me with him. I packed up every thing and we all moved 3 states away! I refused to take his calls and the only discussion was going to be treatment and I stuck to that!

He was admitted to the suboxone clinic and has been clean in treatment for a year and 10 months. I have every bit of faith in the fact that I was enabling him for years and he almost died and I probably paid for the crap he did it with! I will never again stand by and help him destroy himself.

The suboxone has been a blessing and even though it costs a arm and both legs I will pay for it somehow.

I would never have been able to live with the guilt that I could change the outcome and didnt and something happened to him.

You all wont either. Your aunts enabling just as I did and your ignoring the situation altogether if you change your life and not force him to do something. You know that it's his reasoning saying that's the only relief he gets? It's the high, euphoria, and all out buzz that he enjoys!

Believe me if he's eating that fent? He's getting 72 hrs worth of medicine in one pop. No time release, no slow introduction, whatever mcgs he's eating dumping immediately and mucousal at that, absorbed straight into his system bypassing digestion even though he's chewing Linds. Scary more so than if he was injecting, no controlling that med.

Get your Aunt some information on suboxone, let her see he has options, good one's and wont be without pain control or be in withdrawal. Maybe that will help her. Keep trying to find the Dr info, the Dr doesn't deserve to get a bad rap when something happens.

He will get help when he cant do anything else.
Posted 10/31/2013 12:16 AM (GMT 0)
It's really hard to rationalize to addicts in the first place. But then to try it when said person has an absolutely legitimate reason to be using the substance to which they're addicted...it's even harder.

Unfortunately, until he's a real danger to himself/others, there's nothing you as the family can really do in terms of treatment. And you're right, even if you did force him into treatment, you can't control the success of it.

Is there any way to speak to the prescribing doctor? Maybe then steps could be taken to do a legitimate taper off the fent, and then switch him to a different medication to help with the pain...like maybe the Butrans patch. That way it's safe physically.

It really isn't fair to the doc to unknowingly be set up for trouble should anything happen to him.
Posted 10/31/2013 12:58 AM (GMT 0)
Thank you all for your compassion and your personal stories. You have no idea how alone I've felt and although I'm sorry you are having to deal with (or have dealt with it) it really helps me feel like all hope is not lost. I tried to ask my aunt for the doctors name using the excuse that I'm on medicaid now and I could use a doctor that accepts it but he wouldn't let her give it to me.

My aunt was reading him the article about ZoHydro yesterday and he asked her "this won't affect fentanyl, will it?". He's so worried about his precious patches.

It is Fentanyl. He has no idea I'm also prescribed them for obvious reasons.

I know Hipaa makes it pretty impossible to get a doctors information but I was wondering if I could call the rite aide I think he goes to and explain the situation to them and see if they will call the doctor or give me the information to call. I'm pretty sure they would never speak to us again... But you know what? I don't care. Its one thing to destroy himself but I feel this is totally unfair to the doctor. Also, it makes things harder on us. He is a legitimate CP patient but what he's doing will negatively affect us. This is why the laws are so strict now.

I'm trying to convince my aunt to call too. I figure that my persistence might wear her down quicker than I can find the doctor's info. I can't believe she is letting this go on. If it were my husband (no, I'm not married) I would take him to a clinic myself. I think if the doctor makes him get treatment, he'll do it to avoid being cut off from everything completely.

I will give her information about suboxone... Would methadone be a good drug for a recovering addict too?

Thank you all again. This is so embarrassing but I'm really at my Witt's end.
Posted 10/31/2013 1:25 AM (GMT 0)
He is seeking a drug high - Period.. using relief from pain as an excuse - I would love to not hurt but am not willing to pay that price. He is.

Do not know his pain -None of us can. That is no excuse to getting high.. it isn't as he is playing Russian roulette (sorry about the spelling)

It is unacceptable behaviour - Period. Would you tolerate this if his drug of choice was cocaine or heroin?
Yes? No?

I think I am correct that all dr who are allowed to prescribe
Fentanyl
are required by FDA to do a set number of drug screens

So why has this dr not found out he is not using it as he should be ??

Though the doctor cannot tell you about his patient - you can tell him what you know. I do not know if his wife can have him committed to rehab.. I believe that it is gonna take professional help to deal with pain relief & addiction , don't you?

I have friend who had friend who chewed his patches.. he OD & died.

Who is gonna take charge of your uncle & save him from himself / his self-destructive behaviour?

Thin line between emotionly support & enabling..
Do not think you should be around him.
Trying to help is wonderful but he is too heavy for YOU to pull outta the hole he dug without his help.

Nvrthesame98 - my heart goes out to you too.
Posted 10/31/2013 1:30 AM (GMT 0)
NO!! Lindsey methadone can be abused and is far more dangerous then fentenyl when done so. Because of that half-life you here me speak of so often you will never "feel " the too much coming, you would sit down close your eyes and never take another breath.

The only way a person with addiction issues can be treated safety with methadone is in the clinic where they have to go every single day and take their meds in front of a nurse. They also have to see a therapist once a week and drug test every 2.

Suboxone or Butrans is the best bet. Butrans cant be chewed buts a transdermal 7 day patch but more like the birth control or nicotine patches, cant chew anything out of them and suboxone is a buccal strip that dissolves as he does fentenyl or sublingual, under the tongue.
Posted 10/31/2013 1:32 AM (GMT 0)
Diane, I guess he passes because he abuses them on the days he's supposed to wear them so it's still in his system. And he wears the other patch like he's supposed to so even if oral administration would mean it wouldn't show up on a test, the other one would.

I think you all are right and that I need to stay away. But then I will never be able to find that number and I know my aunt will not turn him in. I hate that she's enabling him... she's really the person who can make this stop!
Posted 10/31/2013 2:20 AM (GMT 0)
Vickie,

I think I was typing when your last post was made so I missed it at first. I will definitely not tell her about Methadone then. I will give her information about suboxone. I told her about Butrans when my doctor's in Florida had me try them out. I think he needs to go to a place that not only deals in medical detox but also addictions for narcotics and alcohol. Since he never received treatment for it, I think he's never gotten to the core of why he uses these devices to live his life. There has to be something there. They are both on Social security... is there someone I can call there? I really wish I could find that doctor's number... I think that's the key to getting him help. But I'm trying to think outside the box so that we don't waste any more time. The rate he's going, he won't last another year this way. He's been doing this for a DECADE! That just blows my mind that no doctor has ever caught on to the fact that he's high as a kite and can't sit still. I asked my aunt if his doctor made him see a psychiatrist, it's part of the requirements for my clinic and she said they did the very first year but never again. I don't understand how he hasn't raised any red flags yet.
Posted 10/31/2013 2:46 AM (GMT 0)
IMHO your aunt cannot make him stop.

She can help but as long as he thinks it is OK he will continue to do it.. ask her for dr name & that way you can stay away.

Good luck
Posted 10/31/2013 3:20 AM (GMT 0)
I mentioned having the wife talk to the doctor, because the doctor is in a position to adjust the dosage, start him on butrans, etc. That doesn't mean she has to go in and say "my husband is abusing his meds", she could just mention her concerns...the way hes been acting...etc, and then ask the doctors advice.

When I go to the doctor, my bf goes with me, and he asks as many questions as I do, and when she asks how I'm handling a new med, often times he's better at tracking the trends of nausea, vomiting, muscle spasms, etc.

So having his wife notice his talkativeness, his ups and downs, would not be unusual. It's just a suggestion for a really tough situation. Its a rock and a hard place any way you handle it. And no matter what everyone else around him does...if he wants to continue down this path he will.
Posted 10/31/2013 4:31 AM (GMT 0)
Yes, I understand fully that he has a legitimate need for the Fentanyl, but he has no reason or excuse to be abusing how he is using them. He is 100% wrong for this, and he is risking killing himself.

No easy answer, its a shame you have to live and witness this type of drug abuse.

Other than finding a way to talk to his doctor, and that would be all but impossible under the laws, not sure what else to do. I know it would be hard to sit back and watch all this happen.

I am amazed that he has done this act for so long without serious harm.

Will have to think some more about this situation, may post later when I can think through any other realistic possibilities to get this man the help he really desperately needs.

David
Posted 10/31/2013 8:12 AM (GMT 0)
Lahania I get where your coming from but I was going to call every Dr, dentist, police official and God to to help my son.

The one thing I was not willing to do was stand in that cemetery and put another one of my children in the ground if there was any way for me to prevent it.

On a side note if there's enough fentenyl related deaths and dont think the uncle's doing something thousands of others aren't, the FDA could simply remove it from the public market.

What happens to all the folks who use it correctly and legitimately?

It's happened in the past with good medicines that have high accidental deaths associated with it.

Talwin, Opana, both of these meds had to be reformulated rendering them less effective or worthless.
Posted 10/31/2013 11:42 AM (GMT 0)
Lahaina,

I totally get it... But if he od's he/she gets a negative rep with the DEA and an incident is on his/her file. He or she worked really hard to get her right to treat patients... Why should she suffer consequences because he's abusing medication?

A patient/doctor relationship is very important and its built on trust. He's the one who's violating that trust, not me.

And I'm not sure if you were saying your boyfriend has problems with pain medication as well... If he does, I'm so sorry and I hope he gets well.
Posted 10/31/2013 11:45 AM (GMT 0)
Thank you for your input, David. Its really frustrating to see him this way and to see my aunt run herself ragged because she doesn't have a partner in her marriage. She told his last doctor that he was chewing his oxycodone and the doctor cut him off, cold turkey and dismissed him. She says that's why she's afraid to tell anyone this time because being on the patches this long, his withdrawal could be fatal.

I'm going to sit them both down and tell them that me and the kids can't continue to watch this and that we love him too much to watch him kill himself.

Thank you all for the array of advice. I sure appreciate your well wishes and advice. You folks are phenomenal.
Posted 10/31/2013 3:28 PM (GMT 0)
You totally said nothing offensive! I was expecting different points of view and I do understand what you are saying. I just don't want the doctor to get in trouble because we didn't speak up. I wonder if a doctor can sue a family if they know someone is abusing their medication and they overdose and it causes negative consequences for the doctor?

I am at a loss of what to do... If I do walk away totally... This type of abuse will continue and he may kill himself. We can't force him into treatment, he has to go voluntarily and he doesn't think he has a problem and that this is just pain relief and since he gets a prescription then its perfectly legal... And its NOT!

I think contacting the doctor is the only way he will be forced to get help but you are right, the doctor my drop him cold turkey like the last one did. But that would force him into some type of treatment. He needs an addictionologist to treat his pain... They are familiar with the signs of abuse and they know how to walk the fine line of treatment vs abuse.

I can understand if you dont want to comment further but I definitely appreciated your opinion. And I'm sorry I got confused about who you knew that is an addict.

Linds
Posted 10/31/2013 4:18 PM (GMT 0)
And I'm sure that my name uncle would think I've gone too far if I call the doctor too. He may refuse to ever speak to me again. But at least he'll be alive to ignore me. I'm very afraid he is going to kill himself. If not by an overdose then by falling or getting in a car and driving when he's like that. He's honestly uncontrollable. And if he hurt someone else at the same time... I'd really never forgive myself.
Posted 10/31/2013 5:02 PM (GMT 0)
Quite honestly I would not care if he ever spoke to me again or not if something I did was to help keep him alive. He does not believe he has a problem, and there is nothing anyone can do to convince him he has a problem. He is looking for a high or he would not be cutting that patch in half. Of course he is going to say that it helps his pain, abusers are great liars & manipulators. Your aunt is enabling him by sitting by & doing nothing. This is not going to go away on its on & it will only get worse. If she does not want to be the one to tell the dr then get her to give you the name & number & you call & talk to the drs nurse and let her know what is going on & why you are the one speaking up about it.

I have had experience with alcoholics & drugs in my family. Your aunt would spend a lot of money trying to go through the courts to get him committed somewhere. Something needs to be done about him there is no doubt. When he first started cutting those patches in half your aunt should have notified his dr immediately. If she thinks he is going to be content forever just cutting that one patch n half she is kidding herself. He will end up cutting all of them and may OD. I do not think your aunt would want to carry that burden around. They are not rational so you cannot try to be rational with him.

Good luck...Susie
Posted 10/31/2013 7:31 PM (GMT 0)
Thanks Susie. I agree with you... Something has to be done and I can't care if they never speak to me. She knows I want to call so she won't give it to me. I tried to trick her by saying I was looking for a doctor but he saw right through that. I'm going to try to pick up his meds after hr goes to the doctor again and I'll look for the name. Or I'll try to follow them (without them knowing) and finding out who the doctor is that way.

If this were cocaine or crack, no one would blame me for trying to get him to stop... Not even if I called the police. It is a different situation because they are prescribed but addiction is addiction no matter what the substance. He can hurt someone else when he's high. This needs to be handled and if she won't do it, I will. I hate that she won't do it. I ask her every time I see her. I understand her fears that he'll be cut off but this has been ten years! She thinks if he would have OD'd it would have happened by now but that's just illogical. He needs help.
Posted 10/31/2013 7:35 PM (GMT 0)
And I do understand people that think I'm weo g for doing this. I hope you aren't afraid to speak up. I asked for opinions and advice and I'm not one of those folks that only want to hear it from people who agree with me. I'm not that kind of person at all.

Has anyone had to investigate who someone's doctor is? I know its a PCP who has a PM license bit that's all I know. I only know that because when the other doc cut him off, they found out the PCP does CP as well and they started seeing him/her.
Posted 10/31/2013 7:51 PM (GMT 0)
Linds you are right, it does not matter if its crack or a prescription drug, abuse is abuse regardless. He needs help and the sooner the better. I cannot believe your aunts attitude that is wild, does she even have a clue how dangerous this is? I would stay away from there & I sure would not allow my children around them with this sort of thing going on. She is just as guilty as he because she knows what is going on and is looking the other way.

Someone mentioned how important it is to have a trusting relationship with their dr but honesty plays a huge role in building that trusting relationship, it can't be a one sided deal. His dr will be more willing to try & help him if the wife came forward. However, for her to pretend nothing is wrong is going to make her look as bad as the uncle. He may be able to pull this off for who knows how long but he will reach a point where he will need more of the drug, then what are they going to do??? It always comes back & bites them in the butt eventually. That is when the whole thing will come unraveled on them and backfire.

No point in you stressing yourself out over something you have no control over. You have more than enough on your plate these days......Susie
Posted 10/31/2013 8:23 PM (GMT 0)
The name of the prescribing doc is on any and all script labels, so if he only sees his PCP, then ANY bottle (doesnt have to be pain meds) would have the name. Antibiotics, blood pressure, etc. so if he takes other meds, that would be your best bet i think.

In no way am i saying to tear apart their house looking, but if you happen to see a bottle laying around, etc.
Posted 11/1/2013 2:21 AM (GMT 0)
If speaking up, could save his life and stop this long term pattern of abuse, then so be it. I would rather him hate me for the rest of my life (if he were my relative), then to sit in silence and continue to watch this blatant self-abuse. No matter how genuine and severe his pain is (and I am not casting any doubt on his need for such strong pain meds), he has no justification for what he is doing, and from you describe, he is beyond the point of self-help. His sheer denial of having a problem, needing help, and thinking he's even doing any thing wrong - proves this point beyond any reasonable doubt.

The more I think about his situation, the more it would enact and enable me to do something very pro-active to save him from something terrible happening. I don't see it as a remote possibility, I see it as a very bad situation just waiting to take place, you just don't when his body crosses the line with this severe abuse.

Sounds like the best and most "doable" option, would be to intervene and talk to his doctor outright, regardless of the consequences or what it may or may do to your family relationship with him. I know, that may sound a little harsh, but I view what is going on as very serious, and this man needs some kind of serious wake up call before it's to late.

Each of us has their own moral conscious in these situational ethic type of conflicts, again, not to sound like a broken record, if it were a loved one of mine, I would act without further delay.

You asked for direct opinions, and thus is my final opinion on the subject at hand. Regardless, I will respect whatever you choose to do, or not to do, because I am not the one in your situation.

I have a feeling from your descriptions, this man can not be talked to, or reasoned with. He is so deep into denial and addiction, you might as well be talking to a brick wall. But in this case, you need to save this brick wall from collapsing into a pile of rubble.

Respectfully intended,

David
Posted 11/1/2013 2:25 AM (GMT 0)
P.S., QT

You having the courage to bring this matter to the good folks at HW CP, to me, speaks volumes about your character and concern. The fact that you trust your brothers and sisters here to help you think through a complex situation wasn't easy, and from reading every post in this thread, I see a consistent theme of genuine empathy and care, in the truest sense of HW in general.

I hope and pray that some reasonable course of action can be found and implicated before its too late. I know this matter weighs heavy on your mind and heart, and we are here for you, no matter what.

David
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