new info

Do not mistake correlation for causation.

The fact that people with Crohn's disease have disordered gut bacteria is not exactly news.

This study is a great puzzle piece but in no way does it say that these particular bacteria CAUSE Crohn's disease.

I can see why they call you comedybob

I don't think Bob's comment is funny. it's hard to tell tone from a forum post, but Bob's comment is exactly the kind of unsubstantiated opinion comment that drives rational discussion off the forum.

Bob seems to believe that if there's bad bacteria found in the gut of Crohn's patients then this is the cause of Crohn's disease.

Here's a funny about the correlation is not causation problem:

VIEW IMAGE

I figured you were NCOT. The "cup" gives it away. How does a new name happen?

And by your tone, you believe that bad bacteria cannot be the cause of Crohn's? In my unsubstantiated opinion, it's that kind of closed minded thinking in the medical community that has retarded research, and caused people to suffer unnecessarily. In your substantiated opinion, what is the cause of my sons' condition. And, if you know, why have you not shared your discovery with the world?
As for NCOTs' comment on peptic ulcers, my mother had 75% of her stomach removed because of damage caused by a peptic ulcer in the 80's. Had the cause been discovered before then, she would not have had to suffer through an unnecessary surgery. I watched my mother drink baking soda and water and down painkillers nonstop just to get through the day. Eventually, it turned cancerous and killed her. Please don't downplay ulcers until you have gone through what she did. For some, it's easy to judge when they don't have the facts.

kazbern said...
I don't think Bob's comment is funny. it's hard to tell tone from a forum post, but Bob's comment is exactly the kind of unsubstantiated opinion comment that drives rational discussion off the forum.

Bob seems to believe that if there's bad bacteria found in the gut of Crohn's patients then this is the cause of Crohn's disease.

Here's a funny about the correlation is not causation problem:
VIEW IMAGE

But they could?

So, if it is the cause, let's celebrate. If it's not the cause, let's celebrate that a possible cause has been eliminated. How about, if it is secondary, but causes symptoms, symptoms that can be treated, let's celebrate that!

kazbern said...
Sure. lots of things could be the cause of Crohn's.

And you seem to need to be negative. you can devalue whatever you want. You're like the kid that's given a room full of toys and complains that they'll just break anyway, and I'm the kid in a room full of horse manure and is sure that there must be a pony in there somewhere. Anytime that the mainstream medical community recognizes anything new... that's a reason to celebrate. I have dealt for years, with a system that stated that Crohn's was just autoimmune, no known cause, and showed no interest in finding a cause. And, as I prepare to take my son in for his infusion tomorrow, I celebrate the small things. Your negativity has no power here!

Here's what I find promising about the publication of this article (spoiler - it's not what you want to hear):

The scientific community has been talking for years about gut bacteria and their role in human evolution, health, behavior etc. The availability of good tools (gene sequencers and other devices) has now made the study of this extremely complicated system doable.

The research that's now coming out is the very beginning of our understanding of the gut. The absolute very beginning. I see at least 10 years more research necessary to get a solid understanding of how these bacteria interact with a body and the possible variations among healthy humans and IBDers that lead to the disordered gut bacteria in people with Crohn's and UC. Ten years. At least. In my opinion.

I make this estimate based on my 30 year career in an engineering field in a somewhat researchy position. Probably someone with more direct experience in biology research can provide a better estimate. There are a few folks like that on this forum.

I think posters on the other thread have linked the success of SCD to the disordered bacteria causal theory. I don't know whether they're right or wrong, but there is some evidence from reasonably good studies that show positive results for SCD in Crohn's patients. If you haven't yet put your son on SCD I hope you will consider it, since you subscribe so strongly to the disordered bacteria causal theory.

"More importantly, our study identified specific organisms that are abnormally increased or decreased in disease, which forms a blueprint to develop microbial therapeutics."
"Specific" "blue print to develop microbial therapeutics" Hmmm, seems important
NCOT-http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/06/090629112825.htm
http://www.bio.davidson.edu/people/sosarafova/assets/bio307/vinardone/page02.html
Wierd, the scientific community seems to think that peptic ulcers ARE somehow connected to the immune system

@comedybob:

You sound like a man with a lot of pent-up anger. Would love to know where the comedy in comedybob is.

I will keep my realism, thanks. The examples you cited were not realism, they were ignorance born of lack of knowledge. I change my mind in accordance with evidence; you make up your mind before the evidence has arrived.

Yes, I said I was strangely annoyed by a single sentence of yours: mildly annoyed might have been a better way of putting it. There was something about its tone which just irritated me: I might have read it wrongly of course, but given the rest of your posts I'm actually not having an awful lot of doubt that I did.

I'm afraid you are the one who has your mind up. I'm quite prepared to believe that Crohn's is multi-causal or even different diseases all lumped under one umbrella. The reason I am sure about my own case being genetic, though, is 1) I have a strong family history of Crohn's (brother, cousin, and Irish relatives on my mother's side) and 2) I have no reason to believe my gut was in disarray before getting Crohn's. I hadn't been on any antibiotics, had any recent infections or illnesses, etc.