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Posted 8/13/2007 3:50 PM (GMT 0)
When I first developed type 2 Diabetes I wanted to know why my sugars went up. After several years of head-in-sand denial, a couple years of semi-trying to adhere to some kind of prescribed 'diet' from the doctor and finally being forced by finances to change my eating behaviour because I couldn't afford the dam* pills that were gonna give me a heart attack anyway.... mad I think I'm getting this figured out.

If I want to keep my sugars in line I need to eat much the same as our hunter-gatherer ancestors did before the advent of agriculture, farming or brewing. If you think of a caveman or cavewoman gathering up grains from several fields and then winnowing away the chaff, grinding the grain between stones to make a flour, mixing it with water, forming it into 'noodles' drying it, THEN inventing a pot for boiling this pasta in water to create an edible food... Running down a nursing goat, swiping some of her milk, making cheese in the cave, then running down a nursing cow to obtain some more milk and skim the cream off the top...

Let's face it... fettucini alfredo would never have happened!!!

And don't even get me started on where to put the bread dough to rise (where some animal won't snatch it!) while I'm figuring out how to build an oven with mud and rocks....

I guess what I'm trying to say is, it's not so difficult to figure out what to eat when I base it on cave people food. They ate fish, meat, lots of vegetables and growing green stuff, nuts, berries and other fruits. They had to be careful that obtaining the finished food didn't use up more calories than it supplied. If you are the primary grain to flour machine, the energy expended to make flour for bread isn't worth the effort. Eventually domesticated animals ran grind stones and wind and water mills made flour easily available. This was probably when the first diabetes showed up.

In 1552 B.C. the earliest known record of diabetes was mentioned on 3rd Dynasty Egyptian papyrus by physician Hesy-Ra; he mentions polyuria (frequent urination) as a symptom. They had 'urine tasters' who would check to see if the patient's urine was sweet to help with diagnosis. But people still just died from this disease. Diagnosis didn't mean treatment. It wasn't until the 1870's that a French doctor noticed that the sugar in the urine of his patients disappeared of during the rationing of food in Paris while the city was under siege during the Franco-Prussian War. From this he formulated the idea of individualized diets for his diabetes patients.

Somehow this basic knowledge got lost. With the advent of medications and injectable insulin, we skipped back to the post-agricultural diet and got on the merry-go-round of eat/medicate/eat more/medicate more... In my humble opinion, Type2's need to return to our earliest ancestor's food plan of hunter/gatherer and ignore the foods that must be transformed to be eaten (P-p-processed!) This brings us back to meat, fish, vegetables, nuts and fruits. Does this make sense to anyone? Or am I just whistling in the dark here?
Posted 8/13/2007 4:37 PM (GMT 0)

Hi Jeannie, yes, this makes sense.  You could say that our d*&% intelligence created the problem of diabetes today.  We were smart enough to figure out a way to get bread from a grain and then an easier way with virtually no hard work on our part.   And, as you say, skip forward to the present day and we now have industries and livelihoods based on products made from flours and sugars.  Think of all the packaged goods in the supermarket made from those two ingredients.  The only work we have to do for a Twinkie or some pasta is buy it from a supermarket shelf.  And since all those carbs lend to a feeling of satiety and well-being, ahh, of course we would eat more.   And more and more.  And all those carbs upon carbs every year created too much weight.  If you think about what kinds of food we turn to for snacks, desserts or celebrations, something to nibble on, happiness or sadness, it's not going to be the string bean.  Habits die hard.  Unfortunately, it's even more complicated than that.  Sometimes it involves culture and traditions, family.  How do you change habits or rites related to them?  (Remember Fiddler on the Roof?)  When I first encountered Life Without Bread, I was angry.  skull  I figured it was an unfair punishment I could get around.  My thought was that it was absurd to eat dinner without bread or potatoes or some pasta.  But my blood sugar readings showed me the Light.  (Lux lucet in tenebris.)  Ta da.  I had to get over feeling sorry or deprived - the Poor Me syndrome, sniff  sad .   I'm ok now.  I've survived the no-carb plan and I'm eating foods I like, feel content with meals, and have lost weight.  I don't feel I'm being punished.  Also, I have a new-found understanding that it's the carbs that create the bad cholesterol levels, not the red meats or cheese or butter.  There are sufficient carbs in vegetables and leafy greens:  we don't need bread for brain food.  So, all around, it's a healthier diet.  My opinion, of course.

Lanie 

  PS  Jeannie, hold the fettuccine alfredo.  You hold the fettuccine, and I will hold Alfredo.  :)


Posted 8/13/2007 5:29 PM (GMT 0)
By the way, Lanie, congratulations on your Moderator status. Glad to have the help.
Posted 8/13/2007 5:39 PM (GMT 0)

Ladies, I couldn't agree more.

On the one hand, the history of human culture and civilisation is largely based around the advent of agriculture. On the other, the low-carb, pre-agricultural revolution approach not only makes complete sense on a logical level, it's also demonstrably true when you try it out for yourself. Your blood sugars are normalised to the extent that, for me at least, my blood tests these days show no evidence of my 26 years of diabetes. All the research into our condition says that after 26 years one should expect severely impaired kidney function, atherosclerosis, retinopathy, neuropathy, obesity and everything else besides. I have none of these things, which I put down largely to my diet.

And you're right Lanie, there's a feeling of deprivation at first. Deprived of life's staples, on top of everything else! But now I try to feel grateful for the lessons diabetes has taught me because they are lessons for us all, and I certainly wouldn't have learned them without my blood glucose meter.

So perhaps 3 or 4 million years of human evolutionary history has made us perfectly adapted to a diet of meat, fish, some veggies and nuts. I'm not even convinced about the fruits to be honest - even they would have been a very rare treat in our distant past and they mess with my readings so much that I haven't eaten any for 5 years. I still have to stifle a laugh these days if anyone accuses me of faddy eating - I reckon they're in the middle of a carbohydrate fad (maybe 5-8000 years at most?) but don't realise it. Yet.

If only we hadn't eaten all the mammoths already.......

All the best,

fergusc

Posted 8/13/2007 5:41 PM (GMT 0)

Jeannie, thank you!  I'm not sure I'll be that much more help but I'll try. 

Lanie

Posted 8/13/2007 5:58 PM (GMT 0)
OK, question, I am just beginning to follow the diet you all are recommending and am still on all the meds. So, if I start to hit a low, what should I eat? My doc says peanut M&Ms. Logic says that may not be the best solution. Suggestions, please.
Posted 8/13/2007 8:17 PM (GMT 0)
Makes perfect sense, Jeannie. :-)

I also think that getting to this place (of thinking about diet) has to come from the individual's own understanding of nutrition and what works for them and that takes time. It is a process and one that cannot be rushed.

I mean, many of us have come to the conclusion that the ADA/CDA diet is not correct for diabetics but, we didn't come to it right off the bat. Can you imagine people's reactions to being told at diagnosis they can no longer eat things like bread/flour, pasta, rice, potatoes, etc? Yikes! I dare say the revolt would lead to major non-compliance at the least.

At first diagnosis, most of us cut way down on most things, even eliminating those evil cakes, cookies, and sweets for the most part but, as was said, "old habits die hard." I'm sure many (most) of us still in some way, try to still eat those things we know do us no favours. Why? This is what I ask myself whenever I "want" to eat those things. My answers often have little to do with being hungry. It helps me understand if some of my choices are social, emotional, or habit-oriented.

Hubby (with his IBS) and me a Type1, have gradually come to the conclusion that we do best with: a piece of protein and a whack of veg, either and or both prepared with a good choice of fat (EVOO, Peanut oil, etc.), little fruit and dairy (usually yogurt, cheese, and milk), and rarely sweets/desserts. Love those french fries, though and dark chocolate... yum. I eat them in moderation.

Bring on the steak with tomato and cucumber salad!

tutorgirl: when you go low, eat some fast-acting sugar first: to bring your sugar level back up quickly. After about 15 minutes, then you can eat a small snack of protein/fat/carb if you're not having a meal within the next 1-2 hours. Fast-acting sugar includes: glucose tablets, hard candies, jelly beans, regular pop, OJ. Snack ideas: 1/2 apple with peanut butter, nuts/seeds, cheese. Hope this helps :-)

Cheers,
Kris

P.S. Congrats on the Mod status, Lanie! You'll be awesome :-)
Posted 8/13/2007 8:18 PM (GMT 0)
Tutorgirl,
You're on byetta, I know but can't remember what else... You should post a "Byetta Lows" question for the byetta pros to help you out. Also, your doc is a tad off plumb to recommend peanut m&ms for a low. Even the American Diabetic association doesn't recommend we use chocolate to bring up a low. It's too high in fat to work quickly. Add peanuts (high in monounsaturated fats, low glycemic index) and I can't see where he/she is coming from. Might want to ask how many nutrition classes he/she had in medical school. They usually refer you to a dietitian for classes to clear up this stuff and it should be covered by your insurance.

In the mean time if you are having a bad low 1/2 to 1 cup of regular soda pop will probably do the trick. 1/2 cup of orange juice should do it as well. The idea is to not have lows because you are eating lots of healthy oils, vegetables and meats to keep your body happy and cruising along in the middle of the blood sugar ride.
Posted 8/13/2007 10:20 PM (GMT 0)
Jeanie
I loved your little spoof despite the fact that I don't think you have a leg to stand on. I know the popular misconception is that a surfiet of sugars and starches causes diabetes II but I don't know that any studies have ever proved it. I seem to remember one study that pointed out that the malady is purely congenital that is that we are born with it and the disease only shows its ugly head later on in life. Granted diets you are opposing cause high blood sugar but I don't think czuse diabetyes II. Diets you are espousing do help control high blood sugar but do not cure the disease. If I am laboring under a misaprehnsion please enlighten me since I have no proof; but support your position with proof. I still think that you are the best thing to hit this panel ever. Thanks so much

Arundinaria
Posted 8/13/2007 10:31 PM (GMT 0)
Congratulations from me too Lanie. Of course you'll be a great help, I have absolutely no doubt about it.

As for suggestions to counter lows, I use Dextro Energy tablets. I don't know whether they're available in the US, but you'll have equivalents. They taste fine (fruit flavours) but not so irresistable that you feel like sneaking a couple when no-one's looking. They're easy to carry in your pocket and last forever. More than that, they raise my blood sugars by a pretty predictable amount (1mmol/l or 18mg/dl) so I won't 'rebound' from a low by going too high afterwards. I carry a packet with me wherever I go, even running or cycling in all weathers. Bear in mind that if your lows are becoming more common on a more low carb regime, it's probably time to think about adjusting you medication doses?

All the best,

fergusc
Posted 8/14/2007 12:50 AM (GMT 0)

Hi Arundinaria, first of all you're right that the no-carb way of eating is not a cure for diabetes.  It's only a way to control high blood sugars, and how well it's controlled depends on the food eaten, the amount of that food eaten and the stage of diabetes at which the person is, and also the individual's body's reaction.  For example, beans and peanut butter raise my blood sugar (not eaten together!) but another diet-controlled diabetic may be able to eat them with no blood sugar spike. Technically, I would say I have diabetes because if I eat the same foods that my husband and children eat, my blood sugar would be very high.  However, since I've changed my diet and also added exercise/strength training, I can keep my blood sugar to normal levels.  I also know I'll have to do this forever because if I "stray", I'll have high readings.  I don't believe carbohydrates cause diabetes but they set the stage.  Too many carbs and not enough exercise will eventually cause obesity and obesity may trigger a genetic response.  In other words, millions of us may carry the genetic marker for type 2 diabetes but the disease may not manifest itself until conditions are ripe.  Or, maybe the body will just stop producing insulin, and then it's full-blown diabetes.  What is known today is that with widespread obesity in the world, diabetes has also increased (and that's in another thread).  So, what an interesting study it would be to see who carries the genetic marker for diabetes and among those, who becomes diabetic.  In any case, what we do know now is there are ways to control it.

Lanie

Posted 8/14/2007 4:39 AM (GMT 0)
Arundinaria,
I have been on this journey of learning for quite some time and what I find that works for me may not work for you. I am not saying that the carbs cause diabetes. I actually believe that some of Type2 diabetes is an anti-famine device built into the human genome that has turned on us because of the abundance of food and the lack of physical activity needed to survive.

In past posts I have ranted about how easy it is to just go to the store to purchase food. 100 years ago a woman would have walked to the store or ridden in a carriage, either of which activities would use up lots of energy. I don't know if you have ever caught a horse, bridled it and then hitched it to a carriage, but it's sweaty, hard work and all this was done before a body could even leave the driveway. Laundry, baking, chopping wood for cooking, pumping water, rug beating, floor scrubbing... they didn't call it housework for nothing. And that is just the woman's side of it. Men had tons of physical labor in their daily routine as well.

Since muscle use enhances our ability to utilize our own insulin (in insulin resistant diabetics) then the lack of muscle use would build up insulin resistance and enhance fat storage. Stored fat is really useful in time of famine so when the body finds enough food to store fat, it keeps sending the 'store more fat' message because it REALLY wants to be ready for the next famine. So we have a lot of people who are totally ready for the next famine (sigh!)
Posted 8/14/2007 10:33 AM (GMT 0)
Arundaria, Jeannie and Lanie, it is a very tangled web and no mistake.
I'm fairly sure there is a considerable inherited aspect not only to Type 2, but also, albeit to a smaller extent Type 1. That's fairly clearly established by the tendency for the condition to have a much higher incidence within particular family groups and also within particular racial groups. I think Lanie put it well when she said that the sugars and starches in our diet satisfy one of the preconditions for the development of the condition. A lack of physical activity looks likely to be another one of the boxes that is often ticked before the condition emerges. And yet neither of those things is an absolutely inescapable trigger.
While eating low-carb can't possibly do anything about our genetic inheritance, it certainly does a great deal to control, inhibit and even reverse the effects and likely outcomes of that inheritance. Our genetic make-up hasn't changed in the past 30 years, and yet the incidence of both obesity and diabetes has soared to unprecedented levels. Why? Again, there are a number of factors at work, but we could probably group them all under a general heading called 'lifestyle'.
I'm not convinced that the levels of exercise have really fallen significantly over that 30 year period. Yes there are more and more labour saving devices but at the same time exercise programmes, gym membership and general awareness of the importance of exercise have also increased greatly. The US's dependence on the automobile is something of a poisoned chalice, though.
To my mind, there's perhaps greater significance in the widespread adoption of low-fat diets since the early 80's. It's become so ingrained in peoples food choices that it's seen as heresy to question the science behind it. Almost everyone makes 'low fat choices'. But there's a very clear time-line match between the adoption of the low-fat-heart-healthy belief and the dramatic rise in diabetes and obesity. From one perspective it's clear that low-fat processed foods are much higher in both sugars and starches, so they must be a significant contributor to hyperinsulinemia. At the same time, the evidence against natural fats, and I include saturated fats, is very weak indeed. I'm certain our distant ancestors typically ate a great deal more fat than is common today and yet were relative strangers to diabetes and obesity. It'll take a pretty siesmic shift in peoples beliefs to get that message through however. Try convincing someone that the human heart's preferred fuel is saturated fat and see how far it gets you!

All the best,

fergusc
Posted 8/14/2007 1:16 PM (GMT 0)
Hallelujah!! I have decided to put the low carb diet to the test, ordered Dr. Bernstein's book. Yesterday and the day before I started eating only the veggies, fruit, meat and fats. Found pasta sauce over anything does me in on my numbers, but aside from that...yesterday before dinner...blood sugar 89....before bed --84....this morning 99!!! I haven't seen morning sugars like that in forever. This gives me real hope. I am really hoping to get off the oral meds and just have the byetta 5 mcg. pen. The 10 dosage makes me so violently ill that there was no way I wanted to do that again. You folks have a definite convert! Can't wait until the book gets here so I can go at this the totally correct way. Thank you so much for this forum.
Posted 8/14/2007 1:18 PM (GMT 0)

Yes, beware of "low fat" products.  This should be highlighted as a topic all its own maybe.  Several years ago, since my husband loves fig newtons, he wanted me to switch to the 'low fat' fig newtons because he thought they were healthier.  Figs = fruit = health, but not with all the fat because fat = bad.  When I looked at the label, sugar was the first ingredient, I believe.  In those days, I wasn't looking at carbs but at what the first ingredient was.  That's the first time I realized the low-fat products upped the sugar content.  The idea that it's the carbs not the fats that raise cholesterol is probably hard for many people to accept.  I found it so, too, until my own lab tests came back with very much better readings after 5 months of a very low carb diet.  During those 5 months with no carbs, I did eat red meat and shrimp and used butter in cooking.  Not only was my A1c lower but my cholesterol too.  I can't escape the genetics, but so far I've got them under control.

Lanie 

Posted 8/14/2007 1:53 PM (GMT 0)
Congratulations Tutorgirl!  What a great feeling to have results like that!  :)   As time goes on, you'll know what effect certain foods have when you test your blood sugar, so keep some sort of food log to record this.  And be sure to inform your doctor about your readings because you might need to adjust the medication.  Let us know how it's going. 

yeah

Lanie

Posted 8/14/2007 2:03 PM (GMT 0)

Low fat is the key to high sales, and the food producers know it. I had to laugh at a recent advertising campaign for a chocolate bar over here. It's called Turkish Delight and is essentially gelatine and sugar covered in milk chocolate. So how to sell more of it? Eureka! 'Only 2% fat' ran the advertising campaign, and sales duly increased. Don't worry about the 95% sugar everybody! Madness. The day will surely come when the tobacco companies fight their falling sales with a ' totally fat free!' campaign.

All the best,

fergusc

Posted 8/14/2007 2:25 PM (GMT 0)
Fergusc,
about the growing 'obesity' in the world... have you heard about the research into the 'obesity virus'? There was some talk of it a few years ago and then I've heard nothing. I want to get into that when I get back from vacation. The reason it interests me so is that in watching travel shows on tv I'm noticing that the Europeans are starting to pudge out just like we Americans. Used to be that you could pick out an American in a crowd in a European town because of their X-Large-ness. Now (unless all of the towns that the tv crews are visiting are flooded with Americans... ) I'm seeing lots more hefty Europeans. If you have time, look into this, ok?
Posted 8/14/2007 7:39 PM (GMT 0)
Aaarghhh! The very phrase 'obesity virus' says to me 'it's not our fault, it's a virus!' Just a wee bit of a cop-out I feel.
That said, you're right, we're bulking up over here too. I've just got back from a couple of weeks in France, where they had bucked that trend for a long time. Even they're getting bigger and wider, which is very sad to see. It's about 10 years since I last holidayed in France, but there's been a big change in their eating habits in that time. 10 years ago there were many more little bistros where you could find delicious local cooking often comprising little more than meat, fish, veggies, beans, cream and herbs. Ideally not all in the same recipe. This time they mostly seemed to have been replaced by fast food outlets selling pre-packed starchy stuff. Depressing. In other words, a diet famously high in fat has become much lower in fat and much higher in carbs. They might have to widen L'Arc de triumph pretty soon as a result!
I think part of the reason for these trends goes back to Ancel Keys Seven Countries Study, but that's probably another thread....

All the best,

fergusc
Posted 8/15/2007 1:37 AM (GMT 0)
Aaarghh, as the pirates say, another theory? I looked through some websites about this and came up with some animal studies and papers several years to 10 years old. A theory says there's a virus found in mice and monkeys that can predispose the animal to obesity. Researchers were also testing some human subjects for this virus strain and found it in 15% of the obese people they tested. Several sites were quick to say that having that virus would not be the sole cause of obesity in humans as that condition could only be the result of a number of factors, including genetics and environment. One site went on to state that if a person tested positive for the virus then he/she should take steps to prevent becoming obese, like watching the diet and engaging in exercise. So, just having the virus, according to them, didn't necessarily make them obese. We're back to square one, folks. I am not successful in pasting the websites here but they're easy to find if you type "obesity virus?"
Posted 8/15/2007 3:24 AM (GMT 0)
Lanie,
To paste a link you type the little "[" bracket sign (it's the one above the quotation marks) and type this:

url=http://www.whateveryourwebsiteis.com followed by the other "]"

Then type the name of the info- What ever your web site is

Then you type the little "[" sign again followed by "/url]" remembering to finish with that other bracket

Ok, is that as clear as mud?
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