Contagious? What can we do and what do you think?

Hi everyone,

My name is Chasz from the Netherlands. Ive been bitten by a tick last year and started 30 days of oral doxi 200 mg for 30 days in the 5th week after being bitten and the 2nd week after being tested positive. My symptoms returned after the antibiotics and then subsided again only to be replaced with creaking joints and muscle fasculations a couple of months later. I still have those to some degree now but I'm kinda used to them. My igm and igg have gone down but my c6 is still high. My question concerns human to human transmission. Why? Because during my search into my own symptoms last year, which sometimes was a necessary evil, I came accross a lot of stories about doctors (and patients)who are wondering if Lyme is in fact a contagious disease rather than purely a vector-borne one. Before elaborating on this further please take note of this: NO REAL RESEARCH with humans has been done here and yet the general concensus is that it cannot be transferred from one human to another. Based on absolutely nothing! However, the scientific studies that have been done with animals all seem to point more in favour of the fact that it is possible. Mother to unborn child transmission has been proven and documented and also the Borrelia bacteria are "related" to/of the same family as the bacteria that causes Sifilys which as we all know is in fact a well know sexually transmitted disease. Futhermore some figures seem to indicate that partners of Lyme patients test positive more often statistically speaking. This is generally attributed to the fact that both partners frequent the same natural surroundings but no proof of this exists because this is not easy to research.

In animal testing by Burgess Cats and Mice could be infected orally. Also contact transmission with dogs and mice could be established!
Sources: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1416347?dopt=Abstract, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3826500?dopt=Abstract, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3554844?dopt=Abstract

"We find no study that addresses sexual transmission of Bb among humans; conversely, we find no study supporting that it does not occur. Inferential data, however, suggest the possibility of human sexual transfer. The data come from sound veterinary studies (96,98,115), the finding of Bb in human semen and breast milk (128,129), and by similarity to Treponema pallidum where sexual transfer is abundantly documented (117,130,131). Our clinical experience strongly suggests that predictable, possibly inevitable Bbsl transfer between sexually active couples occurs. The preponderance of infected spouses we have tested to date also exhibit positive serology or PCR for Bbsl presence." Source: http://www.ilads.org/files/harvey.pdf

I really can’t imagine why no further studies are being undertaken regarding this subject. Ofcourse one could say that if it were that contagious a lot of people would have it already? Now keep in mind that the disease can manifest more than 10 years after a person has been infected and that a lot of people who are diagnosed with other diseases suddenly test positive for Lyme and ask yourself this question again. Lyme disease isn't called "the great imitator" for nothing as it can mimic at least a hundred symptoms of other diseases.

There is not much information because it simply hasn't been researched yet! I do however read some encouraging remarks here and there that kissing is highly likely(if ofcourse human to human transmission is possible at all) to be safe because the Borrelia can't or don't like to live in human saliva. Does anyone have -or do you know anyone that has a somewhat scientific opinion on the likelyhood of this being the case? I am very interested in your or other people's/doctors/scientist standpoint on this(I know no real hard fact exist as of yet so I'll regard it as an opinion only) I broke up with my girlfriend last year part of the reason also being because we were both scared by all those stories floating around and now I sometimes feel stuck with the “responsibility” towards someone else.

The only sort of study with humans that has been done was by doctor Bach in 2001. He recovered Borrelia dna from semen samples.
"Suprisingly, initial laboratory testing of semen samples provided by male Lyme patients (positive by western blot/PCR in blood) and the male sexual partner of a Lyme infected female patient were positive approximately 40% of the time. PCR recovery of Lyme DNA nucleotide sequences with microscopic confirmation of semen samples yielded positive results in 14/32 Lyme patients (13 male semen samples and 1 vaginal pap).
CONCLUSION: With the initially impressive data, we feel the subsequent statistical study on the sexual transmission of the Lyme spirochete will illuminate a much broader sectrum of public health concerns associated with the disease than the originally accepted tick borne vector."
Source: http://www.canlyme.com/sex.html

That’s like 8 years ago! Shouldnt this have already had a follow up test by someone? I mean this is a major area of interest I would say. Especially so if you take into account the responsibility towards an unborn child. Try to keep in mind that nothing has either been proven or disproven so I might be wrong with my gut feeling.

Also I see people like me posting their concerns, but maybe we should all really try to be more effective in getting the word out on this? Like mentioning to freelance journalists what an “interesting” and unexplored area this is? I’m just throwing it out there. Ofcourse you achieve the most not by sounding panicky, but by sounding sane and credible. I guess it will take a lot of patience.

It would be really great if someone would figure out a test that could say with 100% certainty whether or not all the bacteria are gone or incapacitated after antibiotics because too many people keep having complaints after being treated "succesfully" as I was. The whole post-lyme syndrom is again just a name given to complaints which cannot be explained. There is however no real proof that a post lyme syndrom actually exists. It might just as well be bacteria having survived the treatment.

Good luck everyone and let me know what you think.

Greetings Chasz

I think I remember reading about someone who got Lyme from getting the urine from an infected animal (a dog, I think) splashed in their eye. And there are case reports of cross-placental transmission. So yes, I agree that Lyme can be "caught" from another person.

Hey Goodoldtimes and others reading this,

Thanx for your input. So yes I also think research should be done even if it's only to exclude the possibilty and to get rid of all those panicky posters ;) No but seriously, the fact that no evidence exists really isnt a good thing. Although I am fully aware that it might not be contagious at all. But still how can you say something isnt so when it hasnt been researched? Im starting to repeat myself here
I've been thinking what else I/we/anyone can do besides approaching (medical) journalists. Maybe we can approach relatives/friends that are working or researching or writing articles in the medical and scientific communities, who are somewhat more open to gentle (patience) nudges in this direction. You can easily "convince" them by saying that it has never been researched. It's very important with this to be patient and be cool. People need time to get used to things. Especially when everyone up till now has been declaring that it can't be contagious. The majority of sites state this as a fact. Now one of the most powerfull arguments I think is the fact that no proof exists. This alone is mindboggeling especially with documented cases of transmission from mother to fetus and the fact that like Sifilys it is a spirochete. I think these two(three) arguments are very powerfull and will make people think immediately. I sometimes wonder myself if Im totally off my rocker, but then I think about these things and also realise: Hey no proof exists so I'm entirely within my inquisitve rights here. I also know that people might not want to think about this possibility and push it away to some corner of their minds. That's fine. I would like to do that too, but I can't anymore. Not till I see/hear some scientific evidence. So anyone, feel free to post a link if you got one

Good health to you all and good and cool and patient "argumenting"

Greetings Chasz

As for treatment in the Netherlands. Well you've got your standard oral regime but if you test later when it's chronic already or if they find antibodies in Liqour you can get Iv treatment. Six weeks I think. The treament regimes are very conservative here. If you really want something else you have to go to germany or the uk to private clinics.

ok.....yes the man who discovered Lyme...whos name is on it. Got some urine in his eye and immediately contracted lyme.
And yes lyme can be sexually transmitted.
And it can also go through a mothers placenta and go to a baby in her breast milk. It is a tiny bacteria that travels well...and reproduces every 28 days.

Yeah this all sounds very encouraging indeed.

The question remains: why don't more people know these facts? Or better yet: why doesn't anyone know that there are almost no facts because no research has been done despite all these stories "signals" and suspicions?! And that every website that claims it's not contagious bases this fact on absolutely nothing! And again! What can we do? Maybe set up a ring of websites on this or something?

If I do a search on "Lyme" "contagious" now. All I get is. "No it is not contagious" "No it cannot be transmitted from one human to another" etc etc. It's crazy. I mean really if you know that all these sites base there opinion on nothing. Nada Zip Zilch. No research at all!

I am telling family and friends about my findings/suspicions but it takes time. So easy does it

And what about the Q-RiBb test? The one developed by Dr Joanne Whitaker? Anyone know more of this? What I read from it is this. (Don't know if it's all true though): It's the same test of which Dr. Mattman, who allegedly was nominated for a nobelprize  for her work on "Stealth Patogens", confirmed a sensitivity of 100%! The test directly shows the Borrelia itself instead of just the antibodies. Dr. Whitaker found BB in blood, mother's milk, urine, placenta, sperm, tissue, tears, teeth, spinalfluid, fingerjoint-fluid and African dust. The test received a temporary U.S. Patent permission an the FDA permission is in preparation. Supposedly almost everyone tested with this test, tested positive for BB, even if they had never been symptomatic. This almost leads one to believe that everyone might be carriying the bacteria. I think there are some other diseases of which all of us carry some form in our bodies? Anyone more info on this? And if everyone might be carryiers. Doesnt everybody get sick because of the fact that their immune-system is suppressing the BB? Or is it dormant? Or are a lot of other diseases out there all Lyme related?

RESEARCH PLEASE!   If you feel there's more going on based on say the animal studies or the Syfilis relationship and you know anyone in the scientific community send them links or tell them about it. Or maybe you can tell your doctor. If everyone drops these little hints then one day it's gonna take off for sure. But don't come of dramatic or to pushy.

Good luck everyone!

Greetings Chasz

Post Edited (Chasz) : 7/5/2009 3:28:19 PM (GMT-6)

Hello everyone,

I got a "scientific" opinion from a very helpful member of the Australian LymeOz community. This lady says that kissing a girl should be safe because and I quote: "Although Bb does not live in your saliva because pH is too high and Bb like acidic pH but it can exist anywhere in the cyst stage. By kissing you transfer Bb you will transfer cysts and then cysts will change to spirochetes or the intracellular form . But this all depends on her level of  interleukin 10 production and interferon  gamma which determine whether Bb penetrate her body and immunosuppress her. The pathway  Bb travels s complex and with 21 plasmids you can change your outer coat in somany ways that the imune system will not recognise it."

So basically I was jumping for joy with finally an opinion that kissing is safe backed up by what seems to be a scientific explanation. I do not understand all the technical details. Perhaps someone else here can shine his/her light on this?

So I was happy because kissing is ok, hooray! However now we have the cystic form that might be transferred after all. From what I know the cystic form has only been proven in in-vitro studies. Some believe that this, alongside with the shedding of the Borrelia's cell-wall and/or the corkscrew invasion of another cell, is one of the reasons why so many people experience persistent symptoms and that this also would mean that the Borrelia actually is capable of surviving antibiotic treatment, like it is able to do in a lab dish. You can check out a lot of clips of this process on various movie sites. Proving this also happens inside the body would make the post-lyme syndrome a thing of the past.

Anyone got any ideas if passing on the cystic form is possible? I know I know, ideas only since no real research has been done, sigh

Post Edited (Chasz) : 6/29/2009 10:03:28 PM (GMT-6)

Hey everyone,

So I started this thread with the purpose of getting a dialogue going on the possible human to human transmission of Lyme(Borrelia) and specifically kissing, since I was thinking I can protect myself when being intimate, but you can't protect yourself whilst kissing. Now I was looking over the tests a specialised lab in the Netherlands is offering and what do you know? They actually offer a Borrelia-PCR for Saliva! Now I'm waiting on a call from them as to whether or not they actually have had positives with this. But think about if they have.(They are offering the test so right now my money is on yes otherwise they wouldnt offer it I guess) I mean ofcourse it would still only be DNA and not the actual Bacteria. Or well maybe the actual bacteria but it might also be DNA from dead ones destroyed by the immune-system, in which case it wouldnt be transmissable. But hey at least it's an interesting development don't you think? I'll keep you posted. And if you feel like replying, by all means, please do. I'm feeling kinda lonely out here the last few weeks

Greetings Chasz

Edit: I spoke to the people at the lab and they actually haven't had any positives with either the saliva PCR or the semen PCR, which it turns out they also offer. Not many people are taking these tests cause the whole discussion on the possible sexual transmission is relatively young. Usually it's just the blood and urine PCR that people take.
Now I'm gonna do my regular elisa in a couple of weeks just to check the values and after that I'm considering taking a PCR for semen and Saliva every four weeks or something. I mean hey, I started this thread so I might aswell show some commitment then.
I'll keep you posted. By the way, does anyone know of a lab that has actually hit a positive on either a saliva or semen PCR? Besides from the Dr. Bach experiment?

My girlfriend dumped me too, but I still wasnt really all that glad about it, althought it certainly makes it impossible to infect her, that is for certain. Yet it hasnt been proven ofcourse that is is actually transmissable.

Good luck with it.

Post Edited (Chasz) : 7/15/2009 8:21:39 AM (GMT-6)

Chasz,


I can understand your fears, and you have to do what you feel is right. I was infected since 2005 and my husband has not gotten it from me. We do use protection, but never even considered transmission from kissing.

Miss3,

Did you eat the meat? We eat a lot of deer meat. I would think if the deer was infected, cooking it would kill it, but now that I'm thinking about it, I'm not so hungry for venison. My husband spends a lot of time in the woods during hunting season, and for some reason he hasn't been bitten. I stepped outside the front door and pulled weeds for maybe 15 minutes in 2005, and I'm the one who got bitten, recently just had a relapse, treated for the relapse and got bitten again last month.

Hi everyone,

I spoke to the people at the lab about setting up some sort of test-shedule and they informed me that they are no longer testing on saliva since there's too much interference from enzymes and stuff.

Not sure how I'm gonna proceed now. Probably do the blood, urine and semen pcr. Haven't thought of a schedule for this. I'll keep you posted.

Also I am interested if anyone in any other country then the Netherlands has tried PCR testing in semen or saliva and needless to say: what were the results of these tests?

Greetings Chasz