What happens when you break up biofilms?

I tend to react to drugs/herx really quickly...my metabolism is ridiculously fast...so I'm wondering if the reason I feel awful today is because I started cats claw for biofilms. My knees are red and killing me to the point of not being able to stand, my wrists are starting to hurt really badly, and I just feel really disoriented, kind of dizzy.

Does breaking up biofilms cause a herx? Can it work that fast? Yikes

I just started Flagyl + Biaxin for the same reason. Almost immediatey (two pills of Flagyl) I got a horrible headache, felt weak and shaky-- for days.

This could be a side effect of the meds rather than a herx.....so I'm confused too. If I was confident it was a herx (good) then I would push on. But I really couldn't function in this condition and backed off of the Flagyl. Mistake probably!

I don't see my LLMD until next week to get some advice on the cyst busting/biofilm issue....but until then I just can't take the Flagyl.

At this stage of the game, proper Lyme meds protocol (how much more can my body take???) is beyond my comprehension and presents a fear factor that keeps me on edge.

I think I have a fast drug metabolism as well.

What ARE we to do?

If you're concerned about your sensitivity to particular medication, you can always get your blood level checked after taking it. Individual physiology impacts the actual amount of medication that gets to your bloodstream. Dr Burrascano did a study in the 90s where they took groups of people with similar age/weight/height/sex, then measured the levels of antibiotic in their blood about an hour after taking the exact same doses; the variations were up to 100x from patient to patient. I'm not sure if the same thing happens with herbs, but I would expect so. These variations would certainly account for some people having zero benefit from one drug while another can't even tolerate it.

Once you have enough medication in your bloodstream, there's really no benefit to taking extra, though the side effects will definitely get worse. You also can't lower your dose once you start to do better. The blood levels need to be kept high through the whole process or you'll only leave the strongest pieces of the infection alive, making it all that much tougher to kill the next time around.

Breaking biofilms is a very inexact science in humans. They can show clearly that a biofilm in a test tube can survive directly being doused with bleach, but can be completely broken apart by Banderol + Samento (cat's claw). This same process has proven impossible to prove within the body. I think at this point all you have to go on is your doctors anecdotal evidence; call and ask how quick the reaction typically takes at the dose they gave you.

Flagyl is quite different. I'm not aware of studies showing biofilm breaking properties, so I don't know how quickly the biofilm busting properties kick in, but I know it's supposed to take about 2 full weeks before the cyst busting it's normally used for takes place. In those applications If you take it 3-4 times for 10 days it won't do much of anything; it needs the full duration to function.

I really don't know. I'm starting to sound like I know more than I do; I'm really just functioning like a human search engine. I read studies, I read the peer reviews, I read how experienced doctors feel the information should modify conventional wisdom, but if I haven't read something that specifically explains a process (ie skin reaction in IV vs oral) I try not to comment.

IVs work faster, can reach the nervous system/brain more efficiently and can minimize some side effects. I've read lots about them eliminating stomach side effects and I know something like a PICC line can minimize the toxicity of a medication (some medications are only be given this way for this reason), but I think that's because some medications can cause problems with your veins if they have to travel through them. I don't know if any of this would serve to modify skin involvement.

There's plenty of literature demonstrating that IVs are not necessary for many patients, even those who are very sick and have substantial CNS/brain involvement. There are risk factors that make IVs more likely to be necessary, including the length of infection, age of the patient (higher = more likely), acute heart involvement, immune function problems or a failure to tolerate oral medication.

I agree with Achievinggrace! We really appreciate your being the human search engine! I do when I can function at that level - but lately I've been having some trouble.

Thanks Spall! We can all use all the help we can get, IMO!

Hi All!
I just discovered this site today, and I though it had a pretty good explanation of biofilms - a little bit of science, but not overly so: drsusanmarra.com/TickBorneInfections/LymeDisease/BacterialBiofilms.aspx

I do have to say that I am no expert, and I definitely do not know all that much about biofilms, but this site seems to have it right from what little I do know about the subject.

Yes, you may post links as long as you have no financial or other interest in the product or are trying to fund raise. We welcome that kind of useful information.

Thanks yazzer

Sickman,
Please be sure to detox!! Please don't make the mistake of believing that herxes are a good thing to have continue. The increase of symptoms is caused by a backlog of toxins from the die off of the bacteria. Without helping our bodies past this healing crisis, our bodies can't stay busy with healing as it has to deal with all of those toxins.

We have some great ideas for detoxing in our "New to Lyme?...Start here!" thread at the top of the forum. Some LLMD's have their own thoughts on what works best for detoxing, so asking yours might be a good idea as well.

I take the enzymes while I am on the abx (but at different time of day). You need to take at the different time of day from food and abx cuz the enzymes would divert to breaking down the proteins in the food and not focus as much on the biofilms! I don't think you'd take the enzymes without some type of antibacterial - the enzymes break down the biofilms and release the crtters hiding within. You need something to kill them off as they are exposed. And, as Traveler so often (and MOST correctly) states - you have to be really up on your detoxing. breaking down the B/Fs will not only release the critters within for kill-off but also dump the toxins from the B/F itself into the bloodstream AND the other debris left over - this needs to be carted out of the body through the detox channels.

Post Edited (yazzer) : 12/5/2011 11:39:03 AM (GMT-7)

Thanks yazzer, I also only take mine with the abx following the logic you state but wanted to ask those of you who are "old hands" at this for your opinions.

Traveler, I'm working my way through the "new to" thread. I have not focused so much on detox. My detox so far as been sporadic. I'll have to get on the ball!

Yes, LymieAngel - the enzymes are not often inculuded with Lyme treatment by LLMDs - it's kinda a new area. But the science behind it makes sense and the biofilms are the last rue areas where Lyme can hide out in our bodies! So we have to get them cleared out as well.

sickman......the last reference to the docs around here i have met most of them......but i do have an excellent list of llmds in our area if u would like to use them for future reference....the doc i have right now is in chapel hill....but her herself has lyme and she is hard to get ahold of if u have a question but she is excelllent....i also have good references in greenville...wilmington...smithfield and chapel hill..i dont have a listing for a doc past the triangle area