Opinions Please

Last week we had a family emergency that’s pretty much taken us to this week, so I haven’t taken my herbs since last Monday. I had been feeling really bad, like a continuous herx, and I knew if I kept taking them, I wouldn’t be able to be at the hospital, helping my family, and everywhere else I needed to be. Feeling as dizzy and just generally unwell as I was, I needed to take a break while we got through this.

What I noticed is that, as stressed as I was and am, my symptoms are vastly different. They are still there to a small degree, but nowhere near what I was experiencing while taking the herbs, keeping a careful eye on my diet, etc.

I am baffled by this. I expected to feel worse being off my medicine, not better. Has anyone else had to take a short break like this, and found that during that break they were feeling better? Is there any reason for it?

I’m going to start taking Zhang again tomorrow, but I will admit, it has been a nice break to feel somewhat normal.

I think we've all been there - sometimes we all need a break for one reason or another. I hope things are getting better with your family!

I'm actually just finishing up an unexpectedly long break from most of my meds - antibiotics, vitamins, minerals - because of some testing I had to have done.

The first few days I felt a lot better, which is usually the case with a couple of days off antibiotics, like my body is getting a nice break from fighting quite so hard, but after that I have to say I spiralled downward. Can't say for sure how much is not having the abx to fight the infections and how much was the extra vitamins/minerals that have been helping my body out but it's been about 2 weeks and I am VERY excited to get back on my treatment protocol!

The other times I've gone off my meds for a few days I have to say it led me to questioning my treatment (thinking, "well if I feel better off the meds, why am I on them...?") but it's usually short-lived. Unfortunately we need our meds/herbs to get rid of these bugs!

i know i feel better off the HH as for me it seems to constipate me..and after about 3-4 days, i have to reduce dosage on the R-5081 as the stress from maybe die off just gets too much, my neck lymphs seem to be swollen up and my neck has this stiffness to it

In his book, it says the HH has significant anti bacterial and anti-fungal properties (both of which will create a lot of die off.-the book does not talk about die off, but obviously there must be)

I think it makes sense that you would feel better once you stop the killing, as there are less neurotoxins from die off floating around as well..also adrenaline under stress situations can mask a lot of things..you may need a few days off family stress before jumping into killing bugs

this R-5081 (in lieu of the allicin) seems to have given me head pain or should i say burn. Its no pain per sec as its not something on an ongoing basis, but if i run my hand down the sides of the top of my skull, its almost a slight burning/numbness on scalp that I can feel

this burning or dull ache seems to be moving around as last night it was a dull ache at the top of the center of my forehead, both sides about 2" above eye brow ..theres no mention in the book about taking days off like 5 days on and 2 off

the reality is these herbs have to be toxic to kill bugs so it makes sense some of them may be toxic to our liver-kidneys-body in general and there are not many studies done on herbs. I mean things like black walnut hulls i thnk it is are very toxic to liver and thats why its suggested to be only on it for a period of time...astralagus is only to be taken for a short time if at all, same with echinacea

my guess is there zhangs herbs are the same ( have some element of toxicity). I plan on taking breaks as i think your body needs time to not be under attack from the herbs as well as well as the bugs. Plus almost all herbs in zhangs arsenal appear to have a strong anti-bacterial component per his book, so they have to be like antibiotics in lowering good bacteria levels

After a week off HH though my legs were burning quite bad this am and my feet were very tender to walk on, with carmp like shooting pains all day..so am back on HH 1/3 tab) and reducing the R-5081

Astragalus is good for the immune system, but according to S.H. Buhner, a master herbalist who wrote a book called, "Healing Lyme," Astragalus is not good for chronic Lyme. He says it stimulates the wrong arm of the immune system for chronic Lyme, and he says it is best used only for acute infections (recent onset).

Hi Bella,
I too had a family emergency, but it was only for one day. My father-in-law - who has dementia - went to church and took a wrong turn. 10 hours later we found him, but we were searching everywhere frantically for him during that time!

Monday I felt horrid!! Although I did realize after a bit that it was because of all of the stress that happened the day before. Much more abbreviated than your situation, but as Achievinggrace pointed out, you may not realize that you are suddenly in 'emergency mode' taking care of others. Once you are able to relax, most likely your symptoms will all be back to keep you company once again.

As Razzle pointed out, Astralagus is not to be used with chronic Lyme, but is otherwise safe for use. I've done my own research on this, as I too use Chinese Medicine (Yep! I get those looks too!! LOL!) although I'm not following Zhang's protocol, so no one is pushing anything on me. Each time my Chinese Medicine Doc has me start on new herbs, I go to my trusty rusty computer and sit there reading what I can find on the use of these herbs.

hi traveller, i appreciate your advice and i mean that sincerely

.actually i am only doing the zhang protocol as a killing protocol with light rifing now. For 18 months i made the misstake of focussing on heavy metals which have affected me for much of my life

the blood thinning is not per sec a protocol, it is just a detox clearing..i know from tests that i have thick blood and know i feel better keeping my blood thin and know from tests and having researched the hemex results and spoken to them that i have hereditary risk factors for thick blood..made worse by metals, bugs, virus's. thankfully my current ND is faimiliar with heparin as per this david berg protocol, so he has agrred to put me back on it

i know from understanding how to read hair tests, that my minerals are messed up, particularly magnesium and potassium, calcium and now know the important role magnesium plays, in all of our minerals, so my ND agrees and has supported my request for magnesium as he knows how important it is and agrees with me, that high calcium-potassium in blood is often a sign of low magnesium

so on the self treating, i would have to respectfully disagree, and i am not saying this to say i know everything, because if i did i would not be sick :)

i test my blood regularly, know where i am lacking such as low testosterone, dhea, high estrogen, low magnesium, high blood sugar..and believe these are all critical components of healing-recovery

i had 30 years of aproximately 5-6000 allergies shots (with thimersol) and grew up on a farm where i believe i was lead-uranium-arsenic poisoned by our local water well..so i have this to deal with as well

i have gone the route of the LLMD's paid thousands of $$ for very poor, should i say even negligent treatment; and my current ND-dr is relatively knowlegeable in lyme, so most of my progress he is monitoring.

i am fortunate though in that i know its not possible for most drs to get a handle on what we have and how to deal with it..many of them in fact know much much less than we do and i have experienced this after paying some of them 6-$700 for a first visit and walking outta there going why did i do that,

so to rely on a LLMD-dr to be the meastro in this quest..not gonna happen :); not at $450 for 15 minutes..thats a month worth of supps.i see my ND for 15-20 mins once a month and give him updated labs and run through it with him and get new r/x's and i am gone..not gomna try his silly probiotics that he makes a mark up on pr his klaire enzxymes that are actually loaded with EDTA which can be quite toxic to our bodies

its really up to us to find the path to recovery. i review everything with my dr, but to expect him to provide direction..I do not think it could be done as we are all dealing with so many different individual infections and health issues

sort of like my eyes..i know from reading now that UV rays can provoke herpes outbreak, so while i ran the UV treatment by my dr, he didn't raise any objections knowing full well that i had a boat load of virus's..do i blame him..not really as its just too many issues most of us have,,

my biggest issue, is i have not dealing with lyme in likely 5 years as i now know it was also my problem not just the metals, so maybe i am trying too much, but i do think i know the diffrence between a good herx and something just not being right..for whatever reason the HH shuts my gut down, so this i cannot have happen right now, it may be my toxin load, it may be that i just do not do well on HH

so i have to approach it from another direction, hence the R5081 for the brain and the coptis, which has made me feel better until i added the HH back in. Zhangs protocol per his book says to take HH, Allicin and Circulation P for phase 1-well circulation P interestingly enough is just a help for circulation and blood and seems to do nothing for me..

no one dr unfortunately can understnd what our body is goiing through and how we are reacting to different dosages-whether it be herbs or abx..i am sure not gonna spent $250-$500 to talk to him about what he thinks about my reaction to Zhangs.i know enough other people who are doing the protocol from different forums that are having the same gut issues..so we just keep moving

 

Post Edited (mercuryb) : 3/20/2012 9:55:27 PM (GMT-6)

i am not responding to be confrontational, but the points which i mentioned were all based upon science and blood tests or other tests whcih are deemed reliable..and to be very clear I am under the treatment of a Dr, a ND who i meet with evry 4-6 weeks and he reviews what i have been doing and offers suggestions

treating the fibrin is one of the most important things you can do in detoxing, its like regularity for your blood stream..no different that skin brushing for the lymph..as an anti aging specialist (my dr), he says this is the single most problematic helath issue in most of his patients with a chronic illness from heart disease to fibro to lyme and/or metals

secondly, he is a firm believer that magnesium deficiency's are at the root of many chronic illnesses as its the most important mineral in the body, gets depelted by both myme and metals and thirdly is sooo important for detoxing..hence the magnesium oil

third he knows its mandatory to limit stress on the liver (and kidneys) as much as possible by staying regular however necessary, throug diet, low impact excersise due to joint issues and adrenal issues

fourth, he is big on treating all hormonal imbalances as the body cannot recover if our hormones are outta whack including testosterone, estrogen, thyroid and adrenals..there is no coincidence that these chronic illneses hit many of us in our late 40's as thats when our hormones start to become imbalanced and we do not detox as well (ie thyroid)

you may want to read the david berg protocol on heparin and viral treatments and how to rotate them, its an ongoing process-thin blood-kill virus's-thin blood-kill virus's and all of thse bugs and our many co-infections (herpes-EBV have a viral component)

also, on the issue of heavy metals, there are a number of medical studies that demonstrate how these metals once released, contribute to arteroscelorosis, ie thick blood. in fact the great Dr k, even has fially come to factual scienctific research to deal with metals and is recommending oral dmps (after years of touting cilantro) as a key part of metal detoxing..i have used dmps and have done mineral-kidney blood tests to monitor for years due to my metal load...and i only have ever felt better on oral dmps to chelate...there is no effect unless you overdose and move too many heavy metals through the kidneys. the proper chelation can only help you once you have had your amalagms out as it is removing metals..when you break up fibrin, metals get released. this has been scientificaly noted in reserach studies in the book "The Calcium Bomb", its just they used EDTA which is quite toxic as it does deplete minerals, it grabs everything

since there is no real medical test to validate how much these antibiotics and even herbs are affecting us, my point was really look, if someone is going to be playing russian roulette with treatrment protocols, thats going to be me, As i do not believe many drs understand the complete interrelationship of the body and especially in the lyme community. Their focus is isolated to bug killing with abx and or herbs, which is very detrimental to the body and our ability to heal

I am under a drs care, its just a naturopathic dr (ND) who has a very broad perpsective in treating any illness..and that includes treating all aspects of deficiency in the body, from mineral, to hormonal to the gut and to dealing with the possible effects of viral die off whcih is yeast

you are right i do not know how they are interacting but since we are all individuals and the effects of these many meds and or treatments are individualist, then it is folly to place this decision in the hands of anyone..you have to do the research and listen to your body

ie if you can handle 4-5 rifing sessions on herpes when two weeks ago, you could only handle 2, you are making progress...

if it only takes 5-6 tabs of a proteolyic enzyme to give you energy when last week it took 10, its a sign you have less fibrin to clear

if you get a major herx from 1/3 tab of HH, you are either have a detox issue going on or a sensitivity (possibly right now) to the herb..its really not that hard to think through this once you have all the tools, then the hard part is just getting your body to cooperate and at the same time, realizing its limitation.its a balance.

these many individual issues work in tandem against us, you can not just treat one thing unfortunately when you body is under siege..you have to do a little of everythng to both whittle down the beasts, BUT support the body..teitelbaum says this in this book chronic fatigue

Post Edited (mercuryb) : 3/21/2012 10:44:51 AM (GMT-6)

thanks traveller and i do appreciate what i think you are trying to convey here..i am saying all of this with lightness inmy heart, so I hope it is received in the same vein

well "my treatments" as you say, are nothing new, its not like they're from another planet :) for
goodness sakes..so i am confused how they could be misleading..I have not in any post suggested
any protocol be followed..merely reporting on my results and herxings, including
--loads of probiotics are needed by some;
--loads of magnesium is also needed by some
--rifing is an individual thing, you go till you herx and drink lots of water and see where you flare up..its all hit or miss and we all do the best we can to investigate where our deficiencis are and correct them so we can keep the bug killing
--fibrin as blood thinnning and viral clearing
--dmps to clear metals which i am doing religiously (again per drs orders and based upon stool-urine and hair test)

the zhang protocol, and having trouble with 1 or more of the various remedies is nothing new, its a herx
many have posted on this-in fact the board is one big herx complaint center..right?

..in fact bella as you point out started this thread and i was merely trying to add info to what i was experiencing with the zhang protocol- before being "set upon" by the hoards :)

i am adhering to the zhang protocol, have his book, have read it back and forth and will be doing a consult with them)--so its not like i am indiscriminately popping zhang green and red pills while maniacally jumping up and down (lymph work you know) with my rife machine on and injecting myself with heparin, while avoiding direct U/V's for the herpes) (however this is actually what I am doing, i just don't share everything :)

I just think you can do as much more harm with a dr who is not treating the body as a whole than you can on your own doing silly things. You yourself say you read up on everything before you proceed and i think that we all must take this same approach, question what the heck these drs are prescribing and why..

Blindly accepting a bottle of pills or R/X and swallowing them and then going oh btw, what was that again is imo, just not a smart or proper way to heal..If people have a good one great, but for those just starting out, given that its your body and brain, its probably worthwhile to really understand what the heck their master plan is in a treatment and if they realy have one

now back to my rifing, injections, turbo-vibrating machine, red and blue pills, gluten and grain free food, magnesium oil, fibrin bustin day.. I hope yours is easier than mine :)