Do herbs and antibiotics put Lyme into a dormant state or do they irradicate it? HOW DO WE KNOW?

I found this review on Buhner's books here:

http://www.amazon.com/review/R3MBG4P7QZOAWE/ref=cm_cr_pr_cmt?ie=UTF8&ASIN=0970869630#wasThisHelpful

I am posting part of it up for discussion, as I think it is an important discussion with so many people relapsing. Of course, we all want to get rid of it, but is it possible? And if so, is it only possible with years and years of treatment until we wreck our organs? If we mainly rely on tests, how do we know it's gone? I had no symptoms for 4+ years, and it is not gone, my symptoms came back. Is it better to follow some type of herbal protocol indefinitely for protection--why risk for it to come back? Also, because risk of re-infection is high, maybe an indefinite protocol makes sense for protection from possible future infections.

Please share your thoughts:



"So this is what Buhner isnt telling you:


1. There are enzymes like nattokinase and serrapeptase that break down the fibrin that makes up the biofilms. Do these work? Take your antibiotics/herbs and when you stop herxing try these, if they cause a herx then thats why. This might help show if these herbs do penetrate biofilms, share if you care.

2. There are "cyst busters" that penetrate cells to get to the lyme and then penetrate the walls of the cysts when the lyme turns into them, these are prescription medications, one is flagyl (my vet prescribed this to her initially as it turns out, but only for a week), and tyndamax, a newer version of flagyl purported to have less negative side effects, which is proposed by Dr. Sapi in a in-vitro study covering the effects of certain antibiotics on lyme cysts [...]
After reading the study it can be assumed that tyndamax is a cure-all, as it can not only penetrate biofilms, cells, and cysts, but it can destroy motile forms of lyme, all at a 90% kill rate. This of course is an in-vitro study and is not necessarily the reality of what goes on inside the body, but it does shed some light on the effectiveness the most commonly prescribed antibiotics and lymes reaction to them. So you can either try to take the lyme head on, or use Buhners strategy, push them into a dormant state and wait it out, however know that while the herbs in this book will certainly aid in your antibiotics effectiveness and dealing with herxes, they are insufficient for curing lyme."

I don't think we can ever fully eradicate our infections. I think the best we can hope for is to make our bodies into an optimal ecosystem with a properly functioning immune system which keeps pathogenic microbes in check. And this is Buhner's opinion as well - these organisms are parasites which need our nutrients to survive (otherwise they would be living in a pond somewhere). Which is fine as long as our nutritional status can support them and our immune systems can keep them in check.

Unfortunately we have degraded our ecosystems with toxins and destroyed our food with pesticides. We aren't functioning optimally anymore and can no longer resist the infections.

http://people.csail.mit.edu/seneff/

Our immune systems need to be regularly primed to properly respond to infection and this is no longer occurring because of vaccinations and antibiotic use.

I don't think we ever eradicate any infection, viral or otherwise. For instance - once infected, the chickenpox virus resides in nerve tissue until such a time as the immune system is unable to keep it in check, when it emerges as shingles. Because older adults are no longer continuously exposed to wild chickenpox as children / grandchildren get the infections, their immune systems are not primed (as regular exposure would cause) and they succumb to a re-emergence as shingles.

Not everyone succumbs to C diff. Many of us harbour this bacteria in our guts and will develop infection only if our beneficial microflora are killed off with antibiotics or too many pesticides in our food (which act as antibiotics as well).

Acute exposure does not always result in illness.

Toxins and pesticides are not the only problem here. Vaccinations produce transient, weak forms of immunization that only delay infection, and the many, many we are required to get these days don't allow the immune system the chance to function optimally. Fevers are a necessary part of the immune response to reduce pathogen load, but we are told to dose children with Tylenol and not allow fever.

When our son was 6 he developed a very high fever that nothing could resolve; Tylenol, cool baths, nothing. It went on for a week or so. Doctors couldn't tell us the reason; spinal tap showed nothing. I believe this is one of the reasons he is so well and healthy today. When my generation was younger, we all had measles, chickenpox, etc., most with no negative outcome, and the result was an enhanced ability of the immune system to respond properly for 20 years or so. However, we are not now being re-exposed to these infections and as a result our systems are weakening.

In my opinion, that is the problem with mainstream medicine today. They have cultivated the idea of the sterile body. If you have a germ you are sick, if you are sterile you are healthy. I believe this paradigm is mistaken.

rowingmom, there is a strong backlash right now against those who oppose immunization. Do you have evidence to support those views?

It's not that I don't believe you, but I believe evidence is crucial to such a claim when there are potentially great risks of not immunizing.

I forgot to mention that it seems many LLMD's recommend some sort of immune support for the rest of one's life.....and it makes sense.

Obviously, Buhner recommends herbs and I remember reading the same in Horowitz's book.

I believe there are people out there who were bit by Lyme infected bugs with no symptoms because of strong constitutions. Building up my own constitution has been as important (if not more) as "killing the bugs."

There is a great book called "Missing Microbes" that I summarized on my blog. Dr. Blaser has done studies on "germ free" rats, which are essentially rats that have been eradicated of all their gut bacteria and put into bubbles. These rats have far weaker immune systems then their germ rat counterparts. Collecting germs, good and bad, is a part of nature. When injected with a mild toxic bacteria, the normal rats fought it off while the germ free rats could not.

I think we are more conscious and fixated on germs after the suffering we've endured because of our battles, but it's something that will always be a part of life. Can you eradicate Lyme entirely? Hm, it's a pretty smart bug that hides in the deepest of our tissues. What happens if you eradicate 99% of it with antibiotics, destroy your immune system in the process and come off antibiotics? That robust 1% will repopulate with a vengeance. It's like sending in your whole army to kill the enemy, almost winning but losing all your soldiers in the process.

Medicine is advancing. While we wait for advances in medical care, keep your immune system strong and remind yourself that a high maintenance healthy lifestyle might be a part of your package now.

I think this post brings up a lot of good points about the general ability of the human body to remain healthy in the general toxic environment that surrounds us. DR J ' s book on Lyme he claims there are "20 times more microbes in our body than cells, which is another way of saying 90% of the cells within us are not ours but microbes." Humans remain healthy even though we continue to accumulate and have preexisting garbage in our system.

I think there is some compelling evidence that Lyme disease suppresses the immune function and opens up Pandora's box of general garbage our immune system was suppressing. I wouldn't say Lyme disease is unique in this matter. Many other infections cause the immune system to be compromised. Heck, even stress is known to be immune suppressive. Sometimes just a slight opening is all it takes for illness to creep in. Then take something like pneumonia which is a beatable sickness but in someone immune compromised contracts it, it can become an extremely grave condition. The same could be said of the general flu humans get so often and have no problem getting healthy again from. The point is NOT to say "oh no I get the flu with Lyme I am in trouble," more so that a "complete eradication of Lyme disease" isn't necessary to live a healthy life.

People on the forum talk about a lot of different methods to get your immune system back in charge to get infections under controls. These methods range from antibiotics, detox, reduction of inflammation, herbals, and on and on. An immune system back in charge can solve many issues. Then whatever remains can be cleaned up much easier by medicines, etc. Is Lyme ever gone? I doubt it. I guess the bigger question is does it matter? The human body is not a sterile environment and has 37 trillion cells. I am sure some straggles exist even when we are healthy. I think people here just striving to get healthy.

I am kind of stealing Dr. J's words and I think a lot of this has already been discussed here so maybe it's just beating a dead horse.

I would have to respectfully disagree on vaccinations. We are in charge of what we put in our bodies and should become very informed either way on choices we make. A strong point for vaccination is the US has not had a polio case since 1979. In the 1940s and 1950s the US had 35,000 a year. I don't believe this is because we all of a sudden developed immunity. This was directly because of vaccination. There is toxicity in vaccinations no doubt, but in weighing the downside of getting polio I will take the vaccine. It is fine to question certain types of vaccinations but some I see as essential to public health. I don't understand the measels thing at all. MMR has not been found to cause autism. Maybe it will change but it seems to be over thinking the situation. Just a point of view. Take it or leave it. I know some people that are passionate pro or anti-vaccine.