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herxing at low dose of herbals, yet feeling almost symptom free off of them. advice please!

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Posted 6/2/2015 6:50 AM (GMT 0)
anyone doing herbals (or even if not!) I'm looking for some opinions, thoughts etc. on the potency of herbs and herxing at low doses (when being close to symptom free).

Ok, so my son has been doing the Beyond Balance herbs for awhile now and we're upping the doses lately so as to get to the end of this all finally (BB 1 for lyme and BAR 1 for Bartonella).

short history, for those who don't know:
my son is 5, did 14 weeks of antibiotics last year, which got him nearly symptom free.
He had a break from all treatments from July 2014- mid-Sept 2014 (long story)
then started herbs really slowly
some herxing from them, so another break (another long story)
started up again last couple of months

anyway…
he is 95%+ symptom free when off the herbs (I say 95%, b/c he is so almost symptom free). For months…last July, August, Sept., then Jan., Feb., when he is wasn't being treated with anything, he had literally only 4-6 days with any symptoms ,and they were mild, very mild…some mild joint pain or something.

but, I'm not about to stop treatment with any symptoms, so on we go with the herbs.

When he is on the herbs, his symptoms increase. Still nothing like before, but they increase, especially the bart. symptoms (tummy aches).

And, the thing is, he herxes, gets increase in symptoms with just 2 drops/2x a day. The llmd wants me to work up to 5 drops/2x day. She said he should be able to get to 15 drops/2x a day. I'm going to take it slow though, at the pace where he's not herxing too much.

Here's where I'm looking for opinions, sorry to take my time getting here,
but…

the llmd said, "if he's herxing a lot at 1 or 2 drops, then we need to dig deeper". I think she was trying to say, that wow, that would indicate a high infection load to herx at a couple of drops.

But again, the antibiotics got him to virtually symptom free, and when he's not on the herbs, I swear he, for months, barely got any symptoms, or rarely did. It was a 1-2 minor ones every two weeks.

It would be like this: little boy, great energy, feeling good, and maybe 5 days in the month he'd say "mommy, my knee hurts." Next half hour…knee is fine.

He still has great energy, feels good overall, but the herbs, when increased, are causing symptom flares.

my rambling question is:
do you think it would indicate a high infection load to herx at a very low dose of the herbs? I don't.
And, I don't think so, b/c when he isn't/wasn't on the herbs, he hardly has any symptoms. (well, minus some motor ticcing last the winter, but I think that was a complex issue and not just lyme and co-infections).

How could someone with a "high infection" load feel good? very good, and be night and day from where he was last winter (2014)? I mean he's a different kid from when he didn't feel good.

Are these herbs ultra, ultra effective and potent? Do they stir things up too much? Are some people more sensitive to them? I should probably do more for detox. The dr. recommended a liposomal glutathione too that I want to order. I might just end up switching to Buhner, where the herbs are single and not a combination. I don't know if that would help. BB 1 contains Black Walnut too, which gets parasites too. Maybe that is affecting things? who knows.

Thanks for listening and any thoughts!
Posted 6/2/2015 12:35 PM (GMT 0)
My LLMD switched me over to an herbal protocol of my choice when I plateaued on ABX. At that time, I had 2 super-mild symptoms.

I opted for Cowden for simplicity....and had the worst herx I ever did when I got up to 3 drops each Banderol and Samento. I figure the herbs hit areas of infection not reached by ABX.

ABX are not effective against cyst forms nor biofilms. Banderol and Samento are.

Once I got past that bad herx (I actually stopped treatment for 3 days - first time ever), I'd herx mildly after every dose.

It finally got the point when I was back to an improved baseline of symptoms and it was time to switch antimicrobials.

I took Mora and Coumanda without much fanfare and it was time to switch to Enula and Houttuynia this past Friday. I was very apprehensive about Houttuynia based upon the stories I read on here.

Well, I herxed at 2 drops of each and the herx symptoms were symptoms I haven't had since first contracting Lyme. Those passed with increased detoxing, my baseline symptoms are slightly improved and I'm starting 3 drops of each today.

As tired as I am of being in treatment (my wallet is especially tired lol), I will continue until I'm symptom-free for two months.

I've been at this long enough to recognize the roller coaster ride that Lyme treatment means. I'm not getting off until the ride is over.....and I will support my body afterwards.

I don't think your son nor I necessarily have high infection loads at all. I think the herbs are hitting areas ABX couldn't reach.
Posted 6/2/2015 2:12 PM (GMT 0)
thank you cd3764. That's reassuring to hear your experience to you. That's a good way to put it, that the herbs are hitting parts of the infection that the antibiotics couldn't reach.

Yes, it definitely is a roller coaster ride! Sometimes it feels like 2 steps forward, 1 step back, but I guess that that at least is still progress.

Like you too, we've come too far to stop now…symptom free 2 months is the goal. I think I need to take the pressure off the situation of thinking it needs to be wrapped up in a certain amount of time. I mean I don't want to drag this out too long, but it doesn't have to happen overnight (so to speak).

Thanks again!
Posted 6/2/2015 2:45 PM (GMT 0)
My son and I are on Beyond Balance drops, and they are pretty potent, especially for the little guys! I think that if your son is herxing on the drops, there must be some unresolved infection that they are attacking.

My son, who is almost 4, was on the MC-Bab-1 and MC-PZ drops for several months until his symptoms plateaued. Now he is on MC-Bb-1, and we are increasing his dose very slowly because he his very clearly herxing. Our LLMD suggested increasing by a drop every three days, but I found that to be way too fast for him. He is doing better if I increase once a week, instead. He is on 6 drops right now, going to a maximum dose of 12.

Best wishes to you and your son! It's so hard to see the little ones herx, but hopefully they pull through it quickly!
Posted 6/2/2015 6:33 PM (GMT 0)
hi Noslia,
thanks for your reply too! And, I agree, the Beyond Balance are potent, especially for the little guys, very true.

yes, unfortunately some unresolved infection still. I knew as much, b/c of the remaining, lingering few symptoms, but it stinks to see the herxing to get rid of it. But, compared to where he was, it's still very minor. It's a lot of tummy aches. the llmd said, maybe to expect some tummy aches as we up the Bartonella herbs, and sure enough, here they are. :( But, we'll just go low and slow too and try to detox more.

Like you, I'm going by how my son is doing for dosing while increasing and not worrying if it's exactly where and when the llmd says to increase. yet, still increasing a bit.

I wonder too, if my son has detoxing issues. You know, maybe the die-off builds up in him too much?

Do you do glutathione, or any supplements for detoxing?

I think I'm going to ask a general question about that later, but if you read this and have any input on it, I'd glad to read it! Thanks again.

cd3764, if you're reading this too, any detox tips. I feel like I've heard a lot of them before (As we're over a year into this) but it's always good to be reminded and maybe find a new idea. Thanks!
Posted 6/2/2015 7:15 PM (GMT 0)
I don't give my son any other supplements for detox, mainly because it's challenging enough to get him to take his drops, and because he doesn't swallow pills yet. My LLMD said that we could consider giving him chlorella and/or a homeopathic lymph drainage treatment. For now, I've just been giving him detox baths and encouraging him to drink more water. Unfortunately, he doesn't like lemon water, either. A mom on a different forum mentioned that she added Mio flavoring to water to get her kids to drink more. That didn't sound to appealing to me, but the other day, I found a couple of brands (Sweet Leaf and Stur), which just have natural flavors and stevia. That didn't sound too bad, so I tried some with my son, and he thinks it's great. He has been drinking more water since then, so I think I'll keep it up for a while.
Posted 6/2/2015 7:22 PM (GMT 0)
Oh, I forgot to mention... I know that I'm compound heterozygous for MTHFR, so I assume it's likely my son has MTHFR mutations as well. I quit giving him the gummy vitamins he was on, so as to minimize his exposure to folic acid. Our LLMD said it was okay to give him 1/2 a capsule twice a day of Thorne Basic Nutrients V, which has methylated versions of B vitamins.
Posted 6/3/2015 1:03 AM (GMT 0)
Black Walnut when added to Buhner's CSA caused increased babesia herxing for K. For her 500 mg actually acted like another 10 drop dose of CSA.

Neither K or myself can stand even 1 drop of Bidens frondosa (it causes dizziness within 20 minutes ). It was all they had at WoodLandEssence when I ordered, and Buhner says it may be even more effective than Bidens pilosa for babesia. I haven't tried the pilosa. We are doing well without bidens.

We were using liposomal glutathione for detoxing during abx treatment, but now I am supplementing l-glutamine, NAC and gelatin (when cooking for additional glycine) to help the production of endogenous glutathione.

We use Swanson Activated B complex for methylated versions of the various B's. I supplement that M, W, F only. Overmethylation can be as bad as undermethylation.

K had a really hard time with A-Bart, we have not tried BB. And yes, 1 drop would make her herx for a week with symptoms significantly worse than she had been experiencing.

One important aspect, IMO, is the support of immune function. Buhner recommends cordyceps powder for those with significant bacterial load. We use 1/3 tsp 3x daily. We later added in astragalus (3x weekly), and ColdFX (extract of American ginseng) 3x weekly.
Posted 6/3/2015 1:50 AM (GMT 0)
I do have an advantage here, I'm an adult that grew up having these infections, so I can tell you that there are periods where I was virtually symptom free - long periods sometimes. But, it never, ever failed that those symptoms would return. Sometimes with a vengeance, sometimes bringing more symptoms with it, and sometimes it was a gradual thing, but the always returned.

This continued until I was an adult, helped my last husband through fatal cancer, and then I crashed, never to be the same.

So yes, he can still very much have a high bacterial load, yet only have a few symptoms one or twice a week or two. That was my life too for certain periods of time. But without testing there's no way to be sure - only we don't have a test that can let us know how much of a bacterial load we have, so we have to assume that those that can't handle the larger doses for their age have high bacterial loads -keep pushing to get him through the full treatment, please. No child needs to grow up like I did.
Posted 6/3/2015 4:54 AM (GMT 0)
Nosila, Thank you for mentioning the Thorne Vitamins. I may look into that. He hasn't been tested for any mutations, but I'm reading about it and considering looking into it.

hi Rowingmom, thank you for replying too! interesting about Black Walnut and Babesia. Heaven help me, this thing seems endless sometimes. I mean there can be so much involved it seems, but I just need to keep moving forward.

I'm very, very tempted to try Buhner's protocol for him. I believe that Beyond Balance is a good, very reputable protocol/line of herbals, but I wonder if him being on less a combination of herbs would benefit him. I'm not sure. I would have done Buhner's from the get go, but the llmd uses Beyond Balance and I'd heard good things. The thought of going solo (no llmd) with Buhner's kind of intimidates me; I guess if you have the herbalist to talk to than you do have a guide.

But I just wonder, if the combination of lyme herbs and parasite herbs (one) and bartonella herbs and herbs that deal with yeast, all together in the same dose and drops, if it just overwhelms his little body.
If maybe I did one herb at a time (or two) of Buhner's at first, and added others from his protocol, that maybe it would be easier for him. I don't know, maybe not. Thinking out loud here, and if you (or anyone) has any advice or words of wisdom I'll take them!

just to note, I shouldn't make it sound like he's down and out, and feeling all sick, b/c thank God, he's not. He feels very good in general, runs around, terrific energy, peaceful spirit (not anxious), BUT he went from 5 symptom days a month to 12+ symptom days a month when we upped from 1 drop a day (or less sometimes, if I took a day off) to 2-4 drops a day. And, they're mostly tummy aches and sudden urinary accident symptoms. So, the herbs are doing something yes, but I wonder if too much for him or too fast. Maybe it hasn't been long enough. I should probably give it more time.

hello Traveler! thank you for sharing your story and thoughts too. I definitely don't want to stop treating him until he's done with this all (2+ months symptom free)l I agree with you, no child needs to grow up with lyme, and bart. or whatever else is going on.
Even when my son has been at his best, the symptoms that have remained are things I would never want him to have to keep experiencing (i.e. joint pain, tummy aches, peeing suddenly) or God-forbid have it get worse with a life stress; so definitely I do plan to see this through. Thank you for thinking of him and saying that too!


And finally, high bacterial load, low, in between…yeah, I don't know. Whatever it is, I find that I want to go the route of no, or little, herxing. I hear others say it's possible. I just don't want these herbs to stir stuff up and make things worse and not better eventually, and how long do I wait to see those results. Maybe I'm very impatient? I want to get the bacteria and detox it out, at the rate his body can handle.
I feel like the herbs stir it up, but that after 30 days of the herb dose increase (again, by just a drop or two/day depending on the day) I don't know if I see an improvement this month. Is that normal? Is that bad? Maybe 30 days is too soon to see a lessening of the symptoms with the increased dose.
Any thoughts about that anyone?

Thanks everyone!

Post Edited (stacestar) : 6/2/2015 10:58:04 PM (GMT-6)

Posted 6/3/2015 5:03 AM (GMT 0)
I like the take it slow - increase by 1 drop a week approach idea....

It is either a high toxin load or a high infection load or both. As my infection and toxin load has gone down - so has my herxing. So far, they are nothing close to what they were in the beginning - which was basically h-e-double-hockeysticks-on-earth. Now my herxes last two days tops and they are very mild. I also know how to head them off - I usually take zeolite, and a little lithium orotate and ibuprofen.

Also - to add to a point made on cyst form and antibiotics not being effective - there is one per Eva Sapi's research that was the most effective on cyst form and that was Tinidazole. Doxycycline + Tinidazole was the highest rated combination in eliminating both spirochete and cyst form. Samento and Banderol did very well too. Doxy on it's own was not effective on the cyst form. Samento and Banderol effect was synergistic as well and were also good at biofilm reduction.

Dr. Sapi Study -
http://www.betterhealthguy.com/physician-s-round-table-2012

Post Edited (SLML) : 6/2/2015 11:08:20 PM (GMT-6)

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