Worried about the effects of long term abx...

I've been reading some posts about how taking abx long term can be extremely detrimental and other horrible side effects. I've been hesitant from the beginning about taking the antibiotics, but feel like I've been slowly making some progress.

What are the potential risks of taking abx for such a long time? Are there more success stories from people who've healed with antibiotics? My acupuncturist told me he could no longer help me since I decided to go abx route and pretty much said I've screwed myself. I'm feeling defeated.

I'm also taking herbs so I don't know if I'm improving from the herbs or abx. It's hard to pinpoint what is working and what's not and I'm just feeling overwhelmed w/ all of it.

Thanks pirouette... I'm really upset at my acupuncturist. He also said that some people say that Lyme is a "conspiracy theory" and that most of it is mental or in our heads. I was flabbergasted at his ignorance and lack of empathy.

As far as tx goes I've been doing everything I can to stay on track. Diet, detox, exercise, etc. I may have some underlying things that need to be addressed like viral, fungal, like you mentioned and will bring them up to my llmd. I'm going to a second llmd to get another opinion. This one doesn't accept insurance but uses cowden, rife, ozone therapy etc.

Thanks for the input!

If you feel trust for your MD, it sounds like you are hitting Lyme from lots of directions and I think that is what it takes. I would have probably saved myself a lot of suffering if I had an MD who was willing to treat like they do now.

Three weeks of Doxy every 3-4 months is the most I got, other than a month on Rocephin 2 years after my diagnosis. That ID doc stated at the time It was probably too little, too late ( I was ill for 2 years prior). He was brilliant and from Harvard, so knew Lyme." with my laundry list of symptoms. But that was in 1990 and there was not enough research at that time. I lost my insurance because I actually used it so from then on for over 10 years I had to depend on my PCP and out of pocket. At least he was good enough to give me the Doxycycline several times a year, he took my word for it that I needed it even though he knew nothing about Lyme.

The main problem I had over the years was keeping my intestinal flora built back up with low yeast diet and probiotics, also herbals for yeast. Right now I am off antibiotics and am trying to stay off for a while and just do the Chronic Tonic and other supplements.

May you heal well!

Hi Sniogra,

I feel that you have to decide for yourself which protocol you feel comfortable using as well as listening to what your body is telling you.

I personally don't know many people who healed from conventional abx alone and stayed healed unless they caught the infection early. I do know many who have healed using herbals alone or alternative medicine.

My suggestion is to read books such as Stephen Buhner's book "Healing Lyme" and Dr. Jernigan's book "Beating Lyme Disease".. I am a strong believer that education is power.

Best to you,
Denise

Sniogra- My opinion is based upon my own experience with my daughter, opinions of physicians that I respect, and logic. Having said that, My opinion is irrelevant because I am not a licensed physician.

My daughter concurrently took high adult dosages of 3 conventional ABX after she was first diagnosed. She was sick for about 4.5 years before treatment started. She took the ABX for 14 months and we felt that the ABX were part of the problem. She had testing performed that demonstrated that her body's Ananomic Nervous System (ANS) rejected these (semi) synthetic substances. This adverse reaction of her ANS is in and of itself immune suppressive in nature. Blood tests demonstrated that her immune system was at its lowest while she was on the ABX, even while she also took herbs that were reputed to improve immune response. ABX or ABX w/ herbs made insignificant difference for her. Her immune system only completely normalized when several "alternative" treatments were applied. We found that it was not a simple case of popping a bunch of high potency probiotic capsules to repopulate decimated gut flora, and then the immune system is A OK.

Dr. Jernigan's experience is that the patients that have received long-term ABX with or without herbs are more difficult to heal than those who have received only herbs or no treatment at all. Likewise, Dr. Klinghardt has said in one of his articles that he noticed that the cutoff seems to be about 18 months. ON AVERAGE such a long term patient finds it more difficult to recover than other patients.

My own risk/benefit analysis told me that it wasn't any longer worth the risk for my daughter. My opinion is that ABX increasingly become more problematic as the months roll by. I as well as the two physicians have less of a problem with short term ABX use.

Here's my logic. If a completely well person were to take high dosages of 3 toxic ABX for 2 years he would become very sick. Therefore.... if a well person became ill from the use of ABX, how can we expect that a sick person would become well from the ABX? My opinion is that the risk factor of the ABX is not factored in enough when we calculate a risk/benefit for LD.

Of course some people get well despite the toxic influence of the ABX, while others would be so debilitated that they would be forced to discontinue ABX use. We can't speak in absolutes if we are to honestly and intelligently discuss the issue that you have posed. We have to talk about the averages, and I don't think that there is any question about that.

There is also another issue worthy of discussion. All physicians of any worth are cognizant that long term conventional ABX use is a definite challenge to long term health. Of course it is disingenuous of the IDSA to use that medical fact as one of the planks of their defense to deny long term treatment when the conventional medical establishment has no other treatment available in its tool shed. When we advocate long term conventional ABX use, we are unwittingly playing right into the hands of the IDSA. The people on this forum that advocate long term multi-ABX use are in a catch 22!

Don

Post Edited (Heathersdad) : 7/12/2015 1:11:44 PM (GMT-6)

Fronton- Your point is well taken, except for one detail. Most of them are not on high dosages of Doxy or Mino, and especially not on 3-4 strong ABX at the same time. Their relatively healthy bodies taking one low dose ABX are not to be compared to the often chronically ill person that is taking high dosages of 3-4 ABX. It's an apples and oranges comparison.

Furthermore, I am not making an absolute anti-ABX statement. I am just saying that for many people, as the ABX and illness synergistically exact their toll, that there is a law of diminishing returns. The wisdom is in knowing when to make that judgement! Experience also teaches us that the "potential benefit" is but a pipedream for many people. I was one of those people and thought just like you! There are many other treatments available, and at least if they fail, most of them have not become part of the problem!

Thanks for responding.

Don

Wow- some excellent points to consider. Thanks everyone for the input. I feel I have just barely scratched the surface into this complex disease and know I have a lot of work to do. In time I hope I will be able to decipher what works best for me and my body but know it is a learning process that will require a lot of patience and every ounce of strength I have. Right now I am leaning towards having the abx knock out a substantial amount of the load, w/ as minimal abx use as possible, and then hoping my immune system and alternative support knocks out the rest.

What exactly is considered short term and long term use? Would short term be 6 months or less?

Hi Don,

Once again I appreciate on how you express yourself! I agree with your logic that "if a completely well person were to take high dosages of 3 toxic ABX for 2 years he would become very sick. Therefore.... if a well person became ill from the use of ABX, how can we expect that a sick person would become well from the ABX? My opinion is that the risk factor of the ABX is not factored in enough when we calculate a risk/benefit for LD."

Dr. Jernigan referenced Dr. Gary Null years ago in one of his articles thus I researched Gary Null and found out he wrote a book called Death by Medicine (the book is on Amazon)...

Dr. Mercola also writes about Dr. Gary Null which is very interesting (below is part 1):

articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2003/11/26/death-by-medicine-part-one.aspx

From my own personal experience, antibiotics made me sicker then I already was (which was pretty sick). Even before lyme I was given an antibiotic after a root canal when I was in my 20's and guess what? I got a yeast infection because of that abx which caused me agony. Little did I know about alternative medicine back then...

Denise