Cowden protocol - bad reaction? :-(

Hi everyone, sorry I haven't checked in for so long. I've missed you! Hope everyone is doing OK. I think last time I was here, I had started mino plus rifampin, and was getting increased tingling etc, which we decided was hopefully a herx. At the end of that course, my doc took me off abx altogether, so we could see what happened. I was fine for a week or so, but then I had a stiff neck and headache which lasted for about 10 days, at which point I rang my doc and they put me back on abx (cefuroxime) for 6-8 weeks - actually, I think I remember asking on here about this, and being advised that it sounded like the bugs were still there, and had come out to play when I stopped the abx, and someone actually suggested going back on cefuroxime. So I think that's the last time I was here, and I'm sorry for not checking in since :-/ . . . many reasons, mainly just life & treatment overwhelming me I think.

So I went back to see a new doc a couple of weeks ago, as I just felt I'd plateaued for so long, and wanted a bit of a new take on things. Same practice, just different doc. He felt it was time to try something else - been on abx, with a break of 3-4 months at the beginning of this year when I was on Buhner herbs, for nearly 2 years now, and he felt I should give my body, specifically mitochondria, a break from it, so he suggested full Cowden protocol, which I began last Thursday. The first 3 days are just detox herbs - pinella, burbur, parsley - and I took these with no issues . . . no improvement but no adverse reaction either. Then, yesterday morning, I felt slightly queasy. Bit of diarrhoea. My protocol was to take my first dose of banderol, serrapeptase and magnesium, so I took this in the morning, together with a small breakfast. By late morning, I was feeling terrible, and was physically sick. Felt I was going to pass out at one point, and felt so weak and overcome. I was in bed all day, and sick 3-4 times more. I was dizzy and just felt terrible. I didn't eat all day, but was really thirsty so drank lots of water - and to be honest, most of what came back up was water (so sorry for tmi :-/). Obviously, I didn't take any more meds yesterday, and I'm having a break from them today too. Very scared to go back on them :-(

Obviously, I'm assuming this is some kind of reaction to the herbs? But what do you guys think? I'm not a sickly kind of person - can't remember the last time I was physically sick, probably 8 or 9 years ago. I've taken oral abx for months at a time with no gut issues. Could herbs provoke this reaction?? And what does it mean? Anyone have any thoughts?

Thanks so much all xx

Yes, it is definitely a herx reaction. How many drops of the banderol did you take?

Thanks so much for your replies - you really are so great

Thing is, I did feel a bit queasy (plus start of diarrhoea) in the morning, BEFORE I'd actually taken my first dose of banderol, magnesium and serrapeptase. Up until that point, I'd only taken parsley, burbur and pinella, which I'd understood were for detox, so dont understand why they would have made me feel so bad . . . also, I was ok for those first three days on those herbs - no reaction at all - until yesterday morning. But I'm wondering if it's possible that I was having a bit of a slight reaction to the detox herbs that morning, after they'd been in my system for 3 days, but that the banderol, serrapeptase and/or magnesium I then took that morning just took it to a huge other level :-/ What do you think? I'm not really big on herxing - if this WAS a herx, then it's by far the worst I've ever experienced - I literally felt like I'd been poisoned and was dying! Ughh! :-( I only took ONE drop of the banderol, 1 cap of serrapeptase and 2 caps of magnesium, BUT, like I say, I was feeling slightly off in the morning, so BEFORE I'd even taken these, and for the previous 3 days I had only taken burbur, pinella & parsley (dosage was 10 drops each of pinella & burbur before breakfast and before evening meal, and 10 drops parley before lunch and before bed). So do you think the detox herbs could cause such a reaction, or do you think that it was causing a slight nausea, which then escalated when I took the one drop of banderol & the serrapeptase and magnesium? By the way, I have used biofilm breakers before - nattakinose and also bromelain, but maybe the serrapeptase is much stronger?

I'm really grateful for any advice or thoughts - thanks so much xx

Thanks cd, I really think that's probably sensible advice. I think I thought that detoxing meant that the toxins would be helped to be expelled through the body - hadn't really thought that they were actually drawing the toxins out of cells but that that meant they were just floating around causing more trouble :-(. But if that's the case, then maybe that makes sense. Is there anything I can do to encourage them to leave the body?? Is that what the drinking lots of water bit is for? And the banderol - wow, that must be potent stuff, I really thought one drop would do nothing! If I go slower, and cut back on doses, will things settle down? I don't think I can go through a day like yesterday too often :-(. Is this all a GOOD sign, ie, that it's herxing, and therefore killing stuff? Im slightly afraid that I'm releasing bacteria but not taking anything to kill them now that I'm off the abx :-(. Not sure I totally understand this protocol enough, but thought it would just be easy after surviving so many abx with no problems!! :-/ xx

I'd be inclined to settle on the detox herbs, and give those more time. You did start a lot all in one go - I know that sort of thing makes me feel bad. Then gradually add the banderol again - but slowly, so that you are in control.

I find it crazy that I can't tolerate 1 whole drop of banderol - but it does seem to confirm that it's good at killing stuff nothing else has reached yet. That has to bad good!

CD - yup - lousy race...but the prize is SWEET - our health back...


Flossie - are you doing more than drinking water for detox?

- dry brush your skin with a natural bristle brush...
- warm epsom salt baths - daily, if possible
- light exercise

Also, are you taking milk thistle seed extract? - To support the liver through all this? Your liver is one organ responsible for removing toxins.

Late to the party as usual!! But I agree with what CD is saying. I'm one that has had really hard herxes just from detoxing too fast.

So slow and steady.

And I have to laugh with all of you about being surprised at how strong herbs are. They are much more complex than pharma abx. Pharma drugs were all started by someone finding out what the "active" part of the plant was and extracting only the most 'active' component, then strengthening it, and putting it into pill form.

Buhner (and others) helps us to understand that the whole plant has a lot of benefits, as there are components in them that will actually work together to help increase the effectiveness of what big pharma pulls out of the plant - so they can work better on a lot of things, because there are other components that will actually protect the body as well. Now, with that said, a person can still hurt themselves with herbs, so it's best to always consult a trusted source for information.

Hi Flossie!!!

I was so sorry to see that you had gone through this!! Yes, it's what happened to me as well when I was in treatments & detoxing.

Exactly... it was just too much, too fast for your body to clear out without those consequences. It's a very eye opening thing too!!

I'm pretty sure that if you will restart with only one drop and increase one drop at a time, your body will respond in a much kinder manner!

I hope that this time is a much gentler experience!!!
Hugs until next time!!!

Wish I'd herxed like that off of them. I wanted the "3 drops is too much," but, no, I was up to max dose in less than a week. I did see improvements on the protocol though, to begin with. The initial cleanse, I felt better than I had in months.

As to why you're reacting the way you are, though I'm sure someone else already offered this as a possible explanation, to begin with, maybe the detox stuff started stirring up toxins and whatnot? I remember going through periods of feeling bad, then really good, those first few days.

The rest, after you took the Samento and Banderol, guessing that was probably a herx.

Good news, it is working. Making you feel like poop, but.. better than more money down the drain, at least in that the medicines are proving effective.

I've been on Docy and Flagyl, and I thought they were bad (I am still on them). This week has been absolutely miserable with the herbs - but I really feel like they're killing the Lyme. Up your amount of burbur and Pinella if you are herxing. My doc suggests 10 drops each, in the same glass as my samento and banderol.

I am shocked as well with everyone else how intense these herbs are. Any tips are appreciated for sure. I will be following all the detox suggestions.

FlossieUK said...
Why do the official protocol instructions start you off on such high doses I wonder :-(.

I wondered the same thing, too. Buhner mentions the need to titrate but he doesn't expand on just how to do it. I, too, learned the hard way.

FlossieUK said...
but now it looks like I'm going to have to work out my own schedule and just keep track of it as best I can . . . sigh

I keep records of my meds/herbs and their doses in my symptoms journal (it helps when looking back at things).

And, I keep a little note with records of what I'm taking and how much....the note is "good" for the 4 days I stay on the same doses of whatever I'm taking. If things progress without incident (=herx lol), I'll update the note for the next 4 days. I keep the note with my herbs :)

Post Edited (cd3764) : 8/19/2015 3:04:43 PM (GMT-6)

I'm so sorry to hear that you're still struggling, Flossie.

I understand how you feel. My LLMD thought I'd be "done" with Lyme after 6-8 months on Cowden (with those last two months being symptom-free)

He was shocked to hear of my worst-ever herx on Samento and Banderol. I, too, felt poisoned.

It just goes to show you that abx cannot reach the netherlands of our bodies. And, that's why many of us can have such a dramatic response to herbs: they reach places abx didn't touch (or couldn't adequately touch).

I have two questions for you:

Have you had MTHFR testing? If you have any of the mutations, it will make it harder for you to detox. In some cases, changing your B vitamin and folate supplements to the methylated versions will help immensely.

And, what are you doing for detox? (you had to know you couldn't get away without us asking that ;)

I understand the financial limitations with testing. I opted out of expensive Bartonella and Babesia tests for that exact reason. The only reason I was able to get MTHFR testing was because it is covered by my insurance. (I understand things are different in the UK).

I'm inclined to agree with your thoughts about loads of toxins backed-up in your cells :(

I wouldn't recommend epsom salt baths at the moment because they could induce a massive herx.

What I am absolutely LOVING and regret not starting sooner is activated charcoal (a binder that I take when I get up at night to use the bathroom since it must be taken 3-4 hrs away from basically everything lol).

Zeolite and bentonite clay are other types of binders you could use (with those same timeframes I mentioned).

Binders really soak up the toxins vs. leaving you to the possibility of them being reabsorbed.

Perhaps you might consider a cold rinse at the end of your shower. This causes blood vessels to constrict which helps get lymph fluid moving. I'm sure you know our lymph system is one of our major detoxifiers.

Dry skin brushing before the shower is also helpful....as is taking Alka Seltzer Gold (I get mine on Amazon).

I really think you need to (slowly) add more methods of detox.

The site I'm linking below has lots of great detox methods:

www.tiredoflyme.com/detox-methods.html

I'm sorry you're having so much trouble right now. I'm confident that, with increased detoxing, you will get past it and get back on the road to healing.

Please keep us posted.