Please Help Me Understand!

My understanding - and I'd have to look up the supporting articles - that when a person presents with a bulls eye rash following a tick attachment, it allows them to treat the infection at a very early stage - meaning that the spirochetes are still spirochetes contained in the skin manifestation of the infection. Scrape the bulls eye rash and you can culture B.b. spirochetes from it. That's the best time to be able to completely eradicate the bacteria from the body - while it's still contained within the skin, and that's why Doxy - early (within days of attachment), at the proper dose and for the proper amount of time - can effectively eliminate the bacteria.

As I said, that's my understanding. I can locate supporting articles that lead me to these conclusions if you wish.

They say a picture is worth a thousand words...

There you go... live spirochete-to-round-body formation while washed with penicillin. For your information these moments are VERY RARE to spot on microscope, so you need to either be very patient or have a huge amount of luck

/www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVmCa70bAxE

Enjoy !

Oh and another thing, there is no such thing as "cyst" in Lyme disease! I know the name is widely used, but it is wrong. This has been proven beyond doubt by Prof. Leona Gilbert (ILADS) & team, from University of Jyväskylä, Finland, this year (see i keep telling you there's a lot of research going on).

They used an electron microscope and look at the beasts in great detail. I think these are the most detailed images of Borrelia you will ever find. So those "cysts" are actually round bodies, they are normal cells, just turned into a round form and with their metabolism lowered to minimum. This can have impact on the type of attack we can mount against them, obviosuly nobody has ever studied these bacteria with a TEM before and document all bacteria inner parts, cell walls, forms, etc...


"Here we confirmed for the first time that RBs actually have an intact cell envelope with a peptidoglycan layer (Figs 5 and ​and7),7), indicating that they do not fulfil clearly the definitions of spheroplasts, CWD or encysted forms although there are some modifications in the cell envelope and cell wall architecture. Furthermore, the intact cell envelope of RBs (Fig. 5), similar to the spirochaete, provides evidence for the previous suggestion (Alban et al., 2000) that RBs are not degrading cells. To avoid confusing terminology, we suggest that B. burgdorferi spherical shapes are termed ‘round bodies’ to describe these forms better."

This is an absolutely wonderful research paper, completely free, with jawdropping images (you can actually see the darn spirochete INSIDE the round body, ready and waiting to come out), i recommend you take a look, know your enemy:
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4339653/

We know very little about this disease ... even our terminology is wrong because of lack of information ...

I know, that is how i call them too.

But the doctors call them the same because lack of knowledge and this only shows how little we know about this disease. If we don't even know what cell wall does the bug have (the cysts have different cell walls than normal bacteria) no wonder we have such difficulty in killing them...

Actually, I think that most of the veterans on this forum know that the "cyst form" is actually called the round body form - but we have to speak in terms that most people that we talk with - that come here- will understand and are familiar with. To assume that we can speak in the most accurate scientific terms will leave out a LOT of people. Some just don't "get" science, and others are compromised by brain fog and too many different terms used for the same thing only confuses the issues more.

Personally, I'm thanked continually for making things make sense to those that are very compromised by these infections, so if my use of the word cystic form bothers you, I'm very sorry. I do understand the need to be very specific when speaking with those that are in the science field, or in a few other circumstances, but we are trying to reach the majority of lay people here.

yep, agreed, it's important to keep the terminology so that we do not confuse people. Totally true.

mpostalnicu, thanks for posting the link on the journal article. Very helpful and important research paper. It helps to resolve some of the controversy about whether Borrelia species can exist in cyst or spherule forms. Transformation of the spirochete form to a round body form, with no or little ATP activity, makes sense for what has been observed in vivo. Confirmation of biofilm formation can also account for the resistance to antibiotic treatment, which would be similar to what occurs with cysts.

As to why doxycycline is effective for early-stage, but not late stage for some people requires closer examination. Doxycycline is not 100% effective even during the initial infection. Some studies found that hematogenous dissemination could occur after 24 hours, perhaps due to the bite location. If the bacteria stays local to the bite then a bull's eye rash would be more likely. The window for treatment of the infection would be greater. On the other hand, if it gets into the general circulation then it spreads more quickly. The formation of a protective biofilm may not be as likely during the early stages. Penetration into collagen and other tissues with poor blood flow takes time.

Doxycycline still works for many, even in a late-stage infection. From the research findings it appears that doxy can still punch holes in the outer membrane of the RB form, but the bacteria is inactive. Couple this with location, biofilm formation, or other evasion strategies and doxy just cannot deliver a knock-out punch. In the early stage of an infection the spirochete has not had a chance to get as entrenched in most people.

This is likely an oversimplification, but probably getting closer to understanding why there is antibiotic failure with early treatment. Hope this helps.

Kott

NotQuiteAntonio said...
I was given a month's worth of doxycycline, say, 3 years ago. The first dose, I herxed. Pretty heavily. Fatigue, aches, chills. I remember comparing it to something like the flu, a really bad cold. That lasted about a day.

From there, the remainder of the 30 days, I had no further reaction to the doxy. Nothing.

Would it be a safe guess to make that the bulk of the bacteria converted to the round body form, after that one dose?

Yes, i believe pulse dosing makes more sense. When the herx is gone, stop the ABX for a few days, then re-start. Ofc if your LLMD likes this idea. This will trick the bacteria to revert back to spirochete and then it's being killed again by Doxy. Do that 4-5-6 times and you will kill it completely. At least in vitro ;)

Mr. Kim Lewis says 4 times (but then again... test tubes...):
aac.asm.org/content/early/2015/05/20/AAC.00864-15.abstract

In vivo things are much more complicated, first, Doxy while it does penetrate the BBB it does so poorly and it does not do well in fatty tissue (the brain is fat tissue so this is important).

Minocycline is a much better pick but it has side effects (intracranial pressure, vertigo). Tetracycline is i think the best as being more lipid-soluble than Doxy but less side effects than Mino.

Even so... biofilms, collagenous tissue (joints) ... lots of places where the medicine won't reach easily.

Then there's coinfections. Babesia is virtually immune to tetracyclines, so u need antimalarial. Bartonella is sensible to tetracyclines but not too much. You need rifampin/levofloxacin.

NotQuiteAntonio said...

Also, is it possible for a number of the round body to bunch together, creating a mass big enough to be felt under the skin? Basically, a cyst, for lack of a better word. I mean, what would you call it at that point? A big, round body thing? lol

No :) That is most probably lymphatic tissue. Borrelia but more commonly Bartonella cause lymphadenopathy:
cid.oxfordjournals.org/content/35/6/643.full

I had this in my duodenum and were causing pain in upper right (below rib cage). Doctors were ofc clueless. "What could cause those nodules?! H-pylori negative?! (panic) Must be an allergy to some food!" Yeah right ...

I wish I could respond as well as I'd like. There are a lot of things I'd like to say without making a huge mess of a post.

I'm a fan of the pulsing as well. Though, I haven't had much of a chance to apply, at least when it comes to abx. It makes sense. I would like to, if I can get there.

Why I only seemed to herx one day, then nothing? Those are all reasonable responses. Whatever the cause, one or more, my reaction was far too little, the doxy ineffective. A large part of it, I really feel like it responded that quickly and went into "hiding," which is scary. Though, to be honest, I feel like I'm still a victim of that to this day. All of the herbal, alternative treatments I've tried, I'll herx very noticeably for a period of a few days, then it slowly tapers off, and the medicines start to have no effect.

All of them, I herxed, felt a little better, plateaud, then slowly started getting sick again. I realize that healing is more than just taking things to kill the bugs off, and that may be part of my problem, but I can't help but feel like part of it is just the bacteria being really quick to resist whatever I throw at it. Stubborn. Persistent. I worry it'd do that, no matter the abx, unless it could handle that particular form.

As for the lumps, while they could be lymph nodes. The location of some of them really makes me question that, especially the ones in the back of my neck and on my spine. They just aren't seated like my other nodes. One feels like it is right on my brain stem.

I also have these clumps of tough, sore tissue all over. I get that we have that, tissue, but something about it feels so foreign.

The stuff on my spine is most worrisome though.

I definitely would need something that would get into my brain. I am starting to get a lot of the old symptoms I had there, before I started treating. Tightness, tingling, inflammation.

I hate the burning sensations everywhere, but the ones there are the most unsettling. It seems to progress very fast, when it gets there. The brain stuff came back like a week ago, yet I feel I have already lost so much.

Is why I have started making efforts to see an LLMD. Calling tomorrow or on Monday, depending on how soon I get some things in order. Nothing I have been doing is seeming to do anything for it. I have things other than Lyme/co that need to be addressed, that could be part of it, but I feel I'd benefit if I could get some of this stuff killed off first. I need to at least stop it from moving much further, otherwise treating any of the other things is not going to matter. I'm not going to be able to function on my own if it takes any more of my brain power. I will have no one to take care of me then. The relative I live with is nice, somewhat caring, but she does not understand the illnesses or their gravity, so I could not rely on her to save me.

Anyway, I kinda got carried away, sorry. Thank you for the responses. You guys are awesome.

I hope I am on the way to a (possibly) better tomorrow, this time next week. You guys too.

All my love,

I'm brand new to this forum, and I've learned so much in just 4 hours of reading. I have had this for over 20 years, but I was just diagnosed 2 months ago based on the IGeneXx results. My clinical symptoms are numerous, needless to say, and no one has even suspected Lyme until I went to a physician who insisted on my taking the IGeneX test even though I tested negative in the 1990s.

Special thanks to mypostalnicu for the link to www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4339653/

I read the whole report and fully understood at least 5%! But at least I comprehend some of the jargon - like cysts v. RB (round bodies). The abbreviation list at the end of the report was invaluable as well as google searches such as "define 'bleb'" - not that I truly understand what a bleb is, but at least I have a reference point. To add a little interest to my wading through the report, I kept reading 'bleb' as 'pleb' - so much for my dyslexia speaking up. The time spent reading it was so worth it. Thanks so much for sharing.

Most sincerely, a blebby pleb indeed

Antonio,

I am beyond thrilled to know that you'll be seeking help from a LLMD.

In addition, while your efforts are commendable, I think you're onto something about the need to support your body. We need to rebuild our immune systems so we can rid ourselves of Lyme and Co....and prevent ourselves from getting sick again.

If nothing more, I suggest you focus on getting a consistent, daily detox protocol going - no excuses allowed ;)

I truly believe every person has the capacity to heal. Please lean on us throughout your journey. We want to celebrate your return to wellness with you!